Do you want to discuss boring politics? (33 Viewers)

Skybluefaz · May 11, 2021

It’sabatch87 said:
Not sure what your going on about mate tbh.
Say it in English.

You said Starmer doesn't put forward any decent ideas. Off the top of my head I thought of the circuit breaker lockdown he suggested and was subsequently derided by the PM for. Let the bodies pile high in their thousands said good old Boris, and they did. There is a word with more than 2 syllables in there. Apologies if you struggle to understand.

Keir Starmer urges PM to impose 'circuit breaker' lockdown on England

Labour leader says Boris Johnson must ‘follow the science’ as Covid death toll rises sharply

www.theguardian.com

Deleted member 4439 · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
No, the exact problem is the opposite.
They are focusing far far too much on the working man.
The old idea of the working man living in a council house, wearing a flat cap, smoking woodbines and walking his whippet is the very reason they are failing.
Those people have become an "under class"
The working man, now owns his own house and is paying 1.5% mortgage interest rate, which under the tories is historically low, and they ain't going to risk that by letting labour fuck it up with irresponsible spending.
(you can argue this all you like, but that IS the petception)
The current working man, is now paying into a pension fund, and might even buy some shares, and has now become politically aware.

The underclass have become left behind, but the point is this, they either dont vote, dont trust labour, or there arnt enough of them to swing elections.

While mortgage rates are low, no one wants to rock the boat, and they are happy to put up with Boris in no10, for all his faults, If mortgage rates rise and people are losing their homes then Boris and the Torys are out.
Its brutal, put it's the truth.

If the working man has is own home, has an active pension fund, can run a car, have a holiday etc he ain't voting for a labour party he sees as being a socialist far left party.

Labour needs to modernise and appeal to this new "middle England " class, because they are the ones who are now voting en mass.

The Cameron and Johnson governments have been the Tory's response to the success of the Blair / Brown governments in seizing the managed capitalism ground and the support of public goods.

As Tory moderates, these governments have continued with the Blair/Brown agenda of support for centrally controlled public services (but much less so, local services). And as compared to the Tory governments of the nineties, they run the economy competently (stupid). Compared to Thatcher and her acolytes, they are indeed New Labour.

So if Labour wants to get power back, it will have to find it's Blarite Labour once more.

SomersetSB · May 11, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
You said Starmer doesn't put forward any decent ideas. Off the top of my head I thought of the circuit breaker lockdown he suggested and was subsequently derided by the PM for. Let the bodies pile high in their thousands said good old Boris, and they did. There is a word with more than 2 syllables in there. Apologies if you struggle to understand.

Keir Starmer urges PM to impose 'circuit breaker' lockdown on England

Labour leader says Boris Johnson must ‘follow the science’ as Covid death toll rises sharply

www.theguardian.com

Yes I do thanks for clearing that up

Deleted member 5849 · May 11, 2021

dubed said:
The Cameron and Johnson governments have been the Tory's response to the success of the Blair / Brown governments in seizing the managed capitalism ground and the support of public goods.

Johnson maybe, not sure you can say that about Cameron! Our budget was cut massively during Cameron's time in power... Where Cameron was 'lucky' was being able to have the Lib Dems as his fall guys - that happened to work beautifully for him!

Ian1779 · May 11, 2021

So what do we reckon for the Batley & Spen by election? Another dropped in candidate with no connection to the area or the people, or will they think about what happened in Hartlepool? 60% Leave constituency and the Labour MP has a 3,500 majority.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 11, 2021

Ian1779 said:
So what do we reckon for the Batley & Spen by election? Another dropped in candidate with no connection to the area or the people, or will they think about what happened in Hartlepool? 60% Leave constituency and the Labour MP has a 3,500 majority.

Airdrie and Shotts this week too

Sky Blue Pete · May 11, 2021

shmmeee said:
Spot on.

It’s the “what are Labour for?” Question that’s hard to answer. The fault lines these days are cultural not economic so the easy answer is: liberalism and wokeness, but you won’t win an election like that.

It should still be economics IMO: demanding higher wages, affordable living, etc. But these days you’ve got the likes of Nick as standard who thinks everyone should work for minimum wage and be happy they’ve got a job.

Everyone’s been indoctrinated into this cult of the individual, even “left wing” politics is all about the individual and not the class these days with ID politics.

Worrying times for a species that’s at its best working together and currently faced by an extinction level event only stoppable by working together.

You sure you’re not a fellow follower of the man jesus?

shmmeee · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
No, the exact problem is the opposite.
They are focusing far far too much on the working man.
The old idea of the working man living in a council house, wearing a flat cap, smoking woodbines and walking his whippet is the very reason they are failing.
Those people have become an "under class"
The working man, now owns his own house and is paying 1.5% mortgage interest rate, which under the tories is historically low, and they ain't going to risk that by letting labour fuck it up with irresponsible spending.
(you can argue this all you like, but that IS the petception)
The current working man, is now paying into a pension fund, and might even buy some shares, and has now become politically aware.

The underclass have become left behind, but the point is this, they either dont vote, dont trust labour, or there arnt enough of them to swing elections.

While mortgage rates are low, no one wants to rock the boat, and they are happy to put up with Boris in no10, for all his faults, If mortgage rates rise and people are losing their homes then Boris and the Torys are out.
Its brutal, put it's the truth.

If the working man has is own home, has an active pension fund, can run a car, have a holiday etc he ain't voting for a labour party he sees as being a socialist far left party.

Labour needs to modernise and appeal to this new "middle England " class, because they are the ones who are now voting en mass.

You’ve just described middle England and the classic Tory voter for the last 60 years. What’s different now is those without assets are voting Tory.

Also, home ownership rates only started going up after years of dropping under the Tories, they’re still below 2010 levels now so mortgage rates aren’t likely a massive factor.

It’s Brexit and COVID wot did it. I worry Brexit is to Labour in 2021 what Thatcher was to the Tories from about 1990-2010

Sky Blue Pete · May 11, 2021

Hancock just on radio 4. The johnson government delivers. Delivered Brexit, supported the nhs and delivered on the vaccines. In answer to why after 11 years there is still no solution to social care. And no one is listening and no one cares until they need help from social care. Nandy spoke well and is the future of the politics I want to be a part of. I despair at the current level of accountability expected from our current government

Brighton Sky Blue · May 11, 2021

Sky Blue Pete said:
Hancock just on radio 4. The johnson government delivers. Delivered Brexit, supported the nhs and delivered on the vaccines. In answer to why after 11 years there is still no solution to social care. And no one is listening and no one cares until they need help from social care. Nandy spoke well and is the future of the politics I want to be a part of. I despair at the current level of accountability expected from our current government

A Tory can say anything and be believed without question whereas anyone else has to justify it within an inch of their life

Sky Blue Pete · May 11, 2021

dubed said:
t

You might equally ask why, after 13 years Labour provided no answer to adult care.

We all know the answer. It's unaffordable.

Nope just commenting on the health minister say since 2019 the government has delivered. Well that’s debatable but on adult social care there is nothing concrete in the queens speech and he can say we’ll deliver and that’s cool

PVA · May 11, 2021

Sky Blue Pete said:
Hancock just on radio 4. The johnson government delivers. Delivered Brexit, supported the nhs and delivered on the vaccines. In answer to why after 11 years there is still no solution to social care. And no one is listening and no one cares until they need help from social care. Nandy spoke well and is the future of the politics I want to be a part of. I despair at the current level of accountability expected from our current government

Johnson said in his first day on the job he had a plan for social care...

...not a peep on it since and of course no one holds him accountable.

Ian1779 · May 11, 2021

dubed said:
You might equally ask why, after 13 years Labour provided no answer to adult care.

We all know the answer. It's unaffordable.

If we can find the money to update a nuclear arsenal in an age that will change to cyber and biological warfare - we can find the money to solve this problem.

Whether politicians have the capacity, desire or feel it has the political capital to solve it is another discussion.

shmmeee · May 11, 2021

dubed said:
t

You might equally ask why, after 13 years Labour provided no answer to adult care.

We all know the answer. It's unaffordable.

You’re being very binary here, there are many countries which do better with social care than we do whether through mandatory insurance or public systems. The question isn’t “is the perfect system possible it’s “can we do better” and we can. Also whatever we make our priority is affordable.
Even Sweden only spends 3.6% on social care and that’s an outlier. We already get some of the best value for health spending and likely would for social care too.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/commission-background-paper-social-care-health-system-other-countries.pdf

Secondly, Labour didn’t stand on the steps of Downing Street after they were elected and say this:

“My job is to protect you or your parents or grandparents from the fear of having to sell your home to pay for the costs of care,” he said.

“And so I am announcing now – on the steps of Downing Street – that we will fix the crisis in social care once and for all, and with a clear plan we have prepared to give every older person the dignity and security they deserve.”

They also didn’t do this:

They did this:

Sky Blue Pete · May 11, 2021

shmmeee said:
You’re being very binary here, there are many countries which do better with social care than we do whether through mandatory insurance or public systems. The question isn’t “is the perfect system possible it’s “can we do better” and we can. Also whatever we make our priority is affordable.
Even Sweden only spends 3.6% on social care and that’s an outlier. We already get some of the best value for health spending and likely would for social care too.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/commission-background-paper-social-care-health-system-other-countries.pdf

Secondly, Labour didn’t stand on the steps of Downing Street after they were elected and say this:

They also didn’t do this:

They did this:

Im voting shmmee at the next general election

Skybluefaz · May 11, 2021

It’sabatch87 said:
Yes I do thanks for clearing that up

Fair enough, you carry on doing what the Sun tells you to do like a good boy.

Deleted member 4439 · May 11, 2021

shmmeee said:
You’re being very binary here, there are many countries which do better with social care than we do whether through mandatory insurance or public systems. The question isn’t “is the perfect system possible it’s “can we do better” and we can. Also whatever we make our priority is affordable.
Even Sweden only spends 3.6% on social care and that’s an outlier. We already get some of the best value for health spending and likely would for social care too.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/commission-background-paper-social-care-health-system-other-countries.pdf

Secondly, Labour didn’t stand on the steps of Downing Street after they were elected and say this:

They also didn’t do this:

They did this:

I think you are completely failing to understand my posts, which are aimed purely and simply at SBD and PVA to get a reaction. I don't need some clever, well-informed chap to come along and ruin that, thank you.

fatso · May 11, 2021

dubed said:
The Cameron and Johnson governments have been the Tory's response to the success of the Blair / Brown governments in seizing the managed capitalism ground and the support of public goods.

As Tory moderates, these governments have continued with the Blair/Brown agenda of support for centrally controlled public services (but much less so, local services). And as compared to the Tory governments of the nineties, they run the economy competently (stupid). Compared to Thatcher and her acolytes, they are indeed New Labour.

So if Labour wants to get power back, it will have to find it's Blarite Labour once more.

Pretty much.
I think part of the problem is that it would appear that Blair is absolutely hated by the labour left, so there's little chance of a return to his brand of politics.

Deleted member 5849 · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
Pretty much.
I think part of the problem is that it would appear that Blair is absolutely hated by the labour left, so there's little chance of a return to his brand of politics.

Iraq did him a lot of damage, it means other elements are lost. I suspect without Iraq there'd have been no Brexit, either, mind...

Sky Blue Pete · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
Pretty much.
I think part of the problem is that it would appear that Blair is absolutely hated by the labour left, so there's little chance of a return to his brand of politics.

And there lies the rub

PVA · May 11, 2021

So apparently in the last election there were 6 (SIX) cases of voter fraud.

Yet that’s apparently good enough reason to stop millions of people voting.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 11, 2021

Grendel said:
This thread is hardly representative of society is it

And if you asked a general member of the public how they'd expect the conversation to be on a football message board re: politics I bet most would say they'd expect it to be at least a bit to the right.

SomersetSB · May 11, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Fair enough, you carry on doing what the Sun tells you to do like a good boy.

Best selling paper in Britain cheers

Get that chip off your shoulder mate try and see all sides of the spectrum it’ll cheer you up.
Keep listening to the guardianistas I’m sure Jeremy will keep the protest going comrade!!

chiefdave · May 11, 2021

PVA said:
So apparently in the last election there were 6 (SIX) cases of voter fraud.

Three of the six were candidates giving false information so not something voter ID would prevent. One was for someone trying to take the ballot box, again voter ID would do nothing.

So that leaves a whole two cases. We must deal with this massive problem urgently and spend a huge amount of money on it.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
No, the exact problem is the opposite.
They are focusing far far too much on the working man.
The old idea of the working man living in a council house, wearing a flat cap, smoking woodbines and walking his whippet is the very reason they are failing.
Those people have become an "under class"
The working man, now owns his own house and is paying 1.5% mortgage interest rate, which under the tories is historically low, and they ain't going to risk that by letting labour fuck it up with irresponsible spending.
(you can argue this all you like, but that IS the petception)
The current working man, is now paying into a pension fund, and might even buy some shares, and has now become politically aware.

The underclass have become left behind, but the point is this, they either dont vote, dont trust labour, or there arnt enough of them to swing elections.

While mortgage rates are low, no one wants to rock the boat, and they are happy to put up with Boris in no10, for all his faults, If mortgage rates rise and people are losing their homes then Boris and the Torys are out.
Its brutal, put it's the truth.

If the working man has is own home, has an active pension fund, can run a car, have a holiday etc he ain't voting for a labour party he sees as being a socialist far left party.

Labour needs to modernise and appeal to this new "middle England " class, because they are the ones who are now voting en mass.

But...isn't that what Starmer was brought in to do? And he's moved them right and done even worse than the leftie-Corbyn? Plus he's had the 'Sir Kier Starmer - hardly a working man is he' when his background is very much middle class done good for himself through his own hard work and endeavour. Which is supposedly what every middle class person aspires to isn't it? So why don't they like him instead of the privileged since birth toff who is Johnson?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
No one gives a fuck who SETS the interest rate, the fact is they are historically low, and currently that's a slam dunk for Boris.

What happens with wages post brexit remains to be seen, that's for Boris to handle.
If he does it well he will go from strength to strength, if he doesnt he will see his majority decline, but let's be honest, it's going to have to be the mother of all fuck ups to loose an 80+ seat majority over the next 10 years.

Seems about right. Johnson having fuck all to do with something but somehow being given the credit.

Can you not see the difference in perception. Stuff Labour has no control over (but Tories do) and people dont like- Labour's fault. Stuff Tories have no control over but people like - give them the credit.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 11, 2021

dubed said:
t

You might equally ask why, after 13 years Labour provided no answer to adult care.

We all know the answer. It's unaffordable.

It is. Just no-one is willing to utter the dirtiest word in politics.

fatso · May 11, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
But...isn't that what Starmer was brought in to do? And he's moved them right and done even worse than the leftie-Corbyn? Plus he's had the 'Sir Kier Starmer - hardly a working man is he' when his background is very much middle class done good for himself through his own hard work and endeavour. Which is supposedly what every middle class person aspires to isn't it? So why don't they like him instead of the privileged since birth toff who is Johnson?

But where has Starmer been?
He may have been brought in to give labour a broader appeal, but he's been anonymous during his time in office.

Boris has "got Brexit done" rolled out furlough and grants to help businesses through the pandemic, rolled out one of the best vaccine programs in the world, increased his majority, had a baby, and still managed to decorate his flat!

ok I'm being a bit flippant, but Starmer isn't the leader Labour need (so far at least)

He needs to purge the party of the cancer that is the hard left socialism of momentum, and give the party the kind of broad based appeal that can win voters back.
If they dont do it soon they face decades in the political wilderness or even their total demise.

fatso · May 11, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Seems about right. Johnson having fuck all to do with something but somehow being given the credit.

Can you not see the difference in perception. Stuff Labour has no control over (but Tories do) and people dont like- Labour's fault. Stuff Tories have no control over but people like - give them the credit.

That's not totally true though, the bank of england controlled interest rates, but they do so by looking at a number of factors that the government DO have a great deal of influence over.
It will be interesting to see what happens over the next year when the excess government borrowing due to covid starts to filter through to the treasury, and what happens to jobs once furlough finishes, and if there's any increase in high street spending once all restrictions are lifted.

Uncertain times, and more challenges lie ahead.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 11, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
And I keep agreeing with you that policies don’t seem to matter.

I think I've cracked it!

Argument on here is that peole will vote for Tories because they expect them to be self-serving arseholes who think they're better than them. So Labour just come out and say 'yes, we're self serving arseholes too who think we're better than you so which do you want - the self-serving arseholes who take your taxes to give to themselves and their mates or the self-serving arseholes who'll fund public spending on the NHS and schools.

Oh, and install Idris Elba s leader. Would help get the black vote, the female vote and would appeal to a lot of blokes over a number of age-groups.

While i'm at it, if the Greens are listening. Get David Attenborough in as leader and you're guaranteed a landslide. Actually, I've probably just put you off saying that haven't I? Problems with climate chance and erosion and stuff.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
But where has Starmer been?
He may have been brought in to give labour a broader appeal, but he's been anonymous during his time in office.

Boris has "got Brexit done" rolled out furlough and grants to help businesses through the pandemic, rolled out one of the best vaccine programs in the world, increased his majority, had a baby, and still managed to decorate his flat!

ok I'm being a bit flippant, but Starmer isn't the leader Labour need (so far at least)

He needs to purge the party of the cancer that is the hard left socialism of momentum, and give the party the kind of broad based appeal that can win voters back.
If they dont do it soon they face decades in the political wilderness or even their total demise.

This I can agree on. He's not got the personality to appeal to those who'll vote for Boris just because they find him funny and entertaining.

Deleted member 5849 · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
But where has Starmer been?
He may have been brought in to give labour a broader appeal, but he's been anonymous during his time in office.

Boris has "got Brexit done" rolled out furlough and grants to help businesses through the pandemic, rolled out one of the best vaccine programs in the world, increased his majority, had a baby, and still managed to decorate his flat!

ok I'm being a bit flippant, but Starmer isn't the leader Labour need (so far at least)

He needs to purge the party of the cancer that is the hard left socialism of momentum, and give the party the kind of broad based appeal that can win voters back.
If they dont do it soon they face decades in the political wilderness or even their total demise.

The problem is in a pandemic if you go against government, it doesn't play well. I'll be more concerned if in the runup to a general election, he is still anonymous.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
That's not totally true though, the bank of england controlled interest rates, but they do so by looking at a number of factors that the government DO have a great deal of influence over.
It will be interesting to see what happens over the next year when the excess government borrowing due to covid starts to filter through to the treasury, and what happens to jobs once furlough finishes, and if there's any increase in high street spending once all restrictions are lifted.

Uncertain times, and more challenges lie ahead.

True enough about the interest rates, although really the weird thing is higher borrowing by the country could be argued to create lower interest rates because a lot of nations (esp those with supposed advanced economies) have a sizeable public debt and run a deficit, so if they owe a lot of money and are borrowing more they're not going to want high interest rates.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 11, 2021

fatso said:
But where has Starmer been?
He may have been brought in to give labour a broader appeal, but he's been anonymous during his time in office.

Boris has "got Brexit done" rolled out furlough and grants to help businesses through the pandemic, rolled out one of the best vaccine programs in the world, increased his majority, had a baby, and still managed to decorate his flat!

ok I'm being a bit flippant, but Starmer isn't the leader Labour need (so far at least)

He needs to purge the party of the cancer that is the hard left socialism of momentum, and give the party the kind of broad based appeal that can win voters back.
If they dont do it soon they face decades in the political wilderness or even their total demise.

Well Starmer did laugh at teachers a few times to try and win over some Daily Mail readers, doesn’t seem to have worked sadly

PVA · May 11, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
The problem is in a pandemic if you go against government, it doesn't play well. I'll be more concerned if in the runup to a general election, he is still anonymous.

Exactly. As much as I'm sure he'd love to call out Johnson and the government for their total ineptitude it would not go down very well at the moment with them being absolutely teflon in the middle of the vaccine bounce.

It make him look weak and ineffective, but he has to bide his time, wait for the Covid handling inquiries to start, wait for the impacts of Brexit to hit etc, and then go on the offensive.

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