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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (28 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,541
Philosorapter said:
Labour 11 points behind nationally and in the Wales/Midlands area Labour is a whopping 21 points behind.


Click to expand...

Staggering really when you consider the last year , and when you consider recent goings on .

Labour really are in the mud

I don't know how they are ever going to get back in power it's a bit worrying really living in a 1 party state
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,542
PVA said:
'Playing politics'


Click to expand...

Indeed.

I see the BBC had the 'Starmer taking cheap pot shots' story because of a picture with some wallpaper was 3rd on the main headlines earlier. Higher up the bill than the VIP PPE contracts. A picture is more newsworthy than billions in public funds given to donors/family/friends. The PM/ Acuri affair who got £100k+ from it wasn't newsworthy at all apparently. Those damn Labour lefties at the BBC.

I also see that the urgent issue that has been addressed is looking for who the leak was. Not the potential law breaking behind the revelation but who told us about it. Says everything you need to know about what's important to these people.

Surely if you've done nothing wrong you just reveal how it was paid for. The fact that they haven't just confirms it must be at least a bit dodgy.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,543
Evo1883 said:
Staggering really when you consider the last year , and when you consider recent goings on .

Labour really are in the mud

I don't know how they are ever going to get back in power it's a bit worrying really living in a 1 party state
Click to expand...

But Tories do good PR. Vaccine programme doing well means 18 months of mismanagement, corruption and lying get forgotten.

I see already they're preparing the general public for the next 'Tories are great' story by having "biggest ever predicted growth" stories flying about, when with even a small amount of brainpower tells you that after the massive contraction we had due to the monumental fuck up we made with covid you'd have to be a special kind of inept for it not to be the highest growth year-on-year.
 
Reactions: shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,544
Evo1883 said:
Staggering really when you consider the last year , and when you consider recent goings on .

Labour really are in the mud
Click to expand...

Not really.

The only people pushing this are the far left and the right, which should tell you all you need to know.

Been saying for over a year not to expect that 40+% to drop for the Tories. Opening up. Vaccines. Brexit delivered just a few months ago. PM with the biggest cult following of any politician in recent memory given daily press briefings while the LOTO isn’t allowed out of his room and any criticism is “doing them down during a pandemic”.

There’s signs the Tory vote is starting to soften, it’ll go Green and LD first, people don’t generally switch between the big two directly. Starmer is only just at a point where he can actually criticise Johnson without being told he’s pro-virus or something. Long way to go yet.

You don’t recover from the biggest post war defeat in a day. Currently Labour stand to take 20 seats off the Tories if polls stay the same:

 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,545
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
But Tories do good PR. Vaccine programme doing well means 18 months of mismanagement, corruption and lying get forgotten.

I see already they're preparing the general public for the next 'Tories are great' story by having "biggest ever predicted growth" stories flying about, when with even a small amount of brainpower tells you that after the massive contraction we had due to the monumental fuck up we made with covid you'd have to be a special kind of inept for it not to be the highest growth year-on-year.
Click to expand...

That’s classic Tory messaging. Pick up in a recession (or cause one) then take credit when the bounce back happens. Worked in 2010, will work in 2021.
 
Reactions: PVA and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,546
Evo1883 said:
Staggering really when you consider the last year , and when you consider recent goings on .

Labour really are in the mud

I don't know how they are ever going to get back in power it's a bit worrying really living in a 1 party state
Click to expand...
Which I guess brings us back to the unresolved discussion from the other day about why people vote for a party that is not in their best interests.

Think all we got was that workers were 'aspirational' but even that couldn't be qualified and it was only a few posts before huge chunks of the electorate were being excluded from that.
 
Reactions: stupot07

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,547
chiefdave said:
Which I guess brings us back to the unresolved discussion from the other day about why people vote for a party that is not in their best interests.

Think all we got was that workers were 'aspirational' but even that couldn't be qualified and it was only a few posts before huge chunks of the electorate were being excluded from that.
Click to expand...

Oh god I'd rather stay away from that discussion today
 
Reactions: shmmeee

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,548
shmmeee said:
Not really.

The only people pushing this are the far left and the right, which should tell you all you need to know.

Been saying for over a year not to expect that 40+% to drop for the Tories. Opening up. Vaccines. Brexit delivered just a few months ago. PM with the biggest cult following of any politician in recent memory given daily press briefings while the LOTO isn’t allowed out of his room and any criticism is “doing them down during a pandemic”.

There’s signs the Tory vote is starting to soften, it’ll go Green and LD first, people don’t generally switch between the big two directly. Starmer is only just at a point where he can actually criticise Johnson without being told he’s pro-virus or something. Long way to go yet.

You don’t recover from the biggest post war defeat in a day. Currently Labour stand to take 20 seats off the Tories if polls stay the same:
Click to expand...


Do you reckon Ann Lucas is getting ready to draft a letter calling for Starmer to go Tuesday morning?
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,549
Lol , I reckon this is close to the truth
 
Reactions: Skybluefaz
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,550
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
But Tories do good PR. Vaccine programme doing well means 18 months of mismanagement, corruption and lying get forgotten.

I see already they're preparing the general public for the next 'Tories are great' story by having "biggest ever predicted growth" stories flying about, when with even a small amount of brainpower tells you that after the massive contraction we had due to the monumental fuck up we made with covid you'd have to be a special kind of inept for it not to be the highest growth year-on-year.
Click to expand...

well that's becuz the working class is just abit thick, innit.
 
Reactions: Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,551
dubed said:
well that's becuz the working class is just abit thick, innit.
Click to expand...

Unfair - the working class on SBT are much much smarter than the average working class thicko who don’t know wotz gud for um
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,552
Evo1883 said:
Oh god I'd rather stay away from that discussion today
Click to expand...
I find it genuinely fascinating. Just after the last election was reading an article on research from the University of Manchester where they had for several years been tracking peoples voting intention but also their responses to various policy areas.

The upshot was the way people vote doesn't line up with what they want the government to do. Perhaps unexpectedly the largest beneficiaries if people did vote for the party most aligned with them was the Greens. Of course you could argue that at least in part the Greens, and other similar sized parties, lose votes due to our FPTP system and people believing it to be a wasted vote.

There has to be a reason and I don't believe its 'voters are stupid'. So what is it?
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,553
chiefdave said:
The upshot was the way people vote doesn't line up with what they want the government to do.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I posted in here a few weeks ago about the Hartlepool by-election.

They polled Hartlepool residents on what policies they want and then on which party they would vote for.

The majority wanted left leaning policies and/or the exact opposite of what the Tories are doing... and then said they'd vote Tory.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,554
Clocking out lol.
Friday afternoon.
Any self respecting patriot should be booked into the pub around now.
Me I'm going round to cut, fix and install the last odd sized fence panel at my daughters.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,555
chiefdave said:
I find it genuinely fascinating. Just after the last election was reading an article on research from the University of Manchester where they had for several years been tracking peoples voting intention but also their responses to various policy areas.

The upshot was the way people vote doesn't line up with what they want the government to do. Perhaps unexpectedly the largest beneficiaries if people did vote for the party most aligned with them was the Greens. Of course you could argue that at least in part the Greens, and other similar sized parties, lose votes due to our FPTP system and people believing it to be a wasted vote.

There has to be a reason and I don't believe its 'voters are stupid'. So what is it?
Click to expand...

People wouldn’t vote for greens - you are confusing liking policies but believing the government can do an effective job
 

Skybluefaz

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,556
dubed said:
well that's becuz the working class is just abit thick, innit.
Click to expand...
 
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,557
PVA said:
Absolutely. I posted in here a few weeks ago about the Hartlepool by-election.

They polled Hartlepool residents on what policies they want and then on which party they would vote for.

The majority wanted left leaning policies and/or the exact opposite of what the Tories are doing... and then said they'd vote Tory.
Click to expand...

You see, thick as pigshit them working class.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,558
dubed said:
You see, thick as pigshit them working class.
Click to expand...

Other than PVA
 
Reactions: Deleted member 4439

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,559
shmmeee said:
Not really.

The only people pushing this are the far left and the right, which should tell you all you need to know.

Been saying for over a year not to expect that 40+% to drop for the Tories. Opening up. Vaccines. Brexit delivered just a few months ago. PM with the biggest cult following of any politician in recent memory given daily press briefings while the LOTO isn’t allowed out of his room and any criticism is “doing them down during a pandemic”.

There’s signs the Tory vote is starting to soften, it’ll go Green and LD first, people don’t generally switch between the big two directly. Starmer is only just at a point where he can actually criticise Johnson without being told he’s pro-virus or something. Long way to go yet.

You don’t recover from the biggest post war defeat in a day. Currently Labour stand to take 20 seats off the Tories if polls stay the same:
Click to expand...

This one will do.

Oh, any news on when the Forde Inquiry is going to report?

---


'As Labour councillors we support the recent call from colleagues for new leadership at the top of our party.


Keir Starmer is an honourable man with a record of public service stretching back more than five years


We are drawn from a number of traditions within our movement, including those who voted for Keir last year.


It has now become clear, however, that he is unable to command the confidence of the whole party nor of many traditional Labour supporters we speak with on the doorstep.


Our country is facing a crisis – and the neighbourhoods we represent are on the front line. We urge Keir Starmer to make way for the new leadership that our communities so desperately need.


Yours sincerely,

---
 
Reactions: Grendel
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,560
dubed said:
You see, thick as pigshit them working class.
Click to expand...

Once again the only person saying that is you.

Repeatedly.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,561
Grendel said:
Other than PVA
Click to expand...

I am not working class.
 
Reactions: mrtrench
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,562
Sorry, I'll rephrase then, presumably to something more in keeping with your daily posts on the subject.

The working class are intelligent enough to know that Labour is unelectable.
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,563
Scottish independence yes vote polling at its lowest for a good while .

Have no idea why , just putting the information out their

46% yes currently
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,564
dubed said:
Sorry, I'll rephrase then, presumably to something more in keeping with your daily posts on the subject.

The working class are intelligent enough to know that Labour is unelectable.
Click to expand...

That's fine.

But, we're bringing up old ground here, that's not an answer to the question that has been asked numerous times (and hasn't been answered).

People aren't asking what's wrong with Labour, they are asking what's so appealing about the Tories to the working class and so far the best answer we've had is something about aspirations, which makes no sense.
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,565
PVA said:
I am not working class.
Click to expand...


What do you see yourself as then
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,566
Grendel said:
People wouldn’t vote for greens - you are confusing liking policies but believing the government can do an effective job
Click to expand...

Exactly - perception not reality. There is no empirical evidence that Tories are any better at doing an effective job - it's just this long standing ingrained thought that they do. It's seemingly based on Labour of 50 years ago and it's a lot different to then.

As for voting greens I think it's a few things. First is the system of FPTP - even if you want to vote for them if you do it'll likely lead to a right-wing govt so you vote tactically to try and prevent it. Secondly, and what has put me off certainly in GE is that for all the green industry etc they push they've got some absolute militant nutcases who align the party to totally nonsensical 'woke' policies or want to force everyone to be vegan or something that many can't get behind.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,567
Grendel said:
People wouldn’t vote for greens - you are confusing liking policies but believing the government can do an effective job
Click to expand...
Wasn't for a second suggesting everyone is about to vote Green, or even that they should. But its very odd that people who seem to favour polices diametrically opposed to Conservative policies vote for them.

Its nothing to do with how good or bad any other party is. The question that keeps being asked is why are people voting Conservative and nobody seems able to come up with an answer.
 
Reactions: Brighton Sky Blue and PVA

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,568
PVA said:
People aren't asking what's wrong with Labour, they are asking what's so appealing about the Tories to the working class and so far the best answer we've had is something about aspirations, which makes no sense.
Click to expand...
There was a report by the IFS released this week which again highlighted decreasing social mobility which seems directly at odds with the idea that working & middles class voters are voting Conservative due to being aspirational.
Daily Telegraph said:
Millennials could see their wealth boosted by almost a fifth from inheritance, researchers have found, amid warnings of a widening gap between the rich and poor.

Inheritances have been growing as a share of national income in the UK since the 1970s, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), but the economic think tank believes they are now set to grow dramatically compared with other sources of income - meaning people's overall wealth is increasingly likely to be determined by their parents' assets rather than their own earnings.

The IFS, which publishes its findings in a report on Monday, also suggests people with higher incomes tend to be more likely to reduce the amount they save in anticipation of receiving future inheritances - meaning they could see a larger effect on their current living standards.

David Sturrock, a senior research economist at IFS and an author of the report, said: "The increasing levels of wealth held by older generations and the lack of income growth for younger generations are together driving an inter-generational economic divide.

"But these trends also mean that inheritances are set to become more important in future, widening the gap between those with rich parents and those with poor parents. The growing importance of inherited wealth will be a profound societal shift, one with worrying consequences for social mobility.

"As inheritances become larger, any policies that redistribute inheritances will have bigger impacts on inequality and social mobility, and this should increase the pressure to rationalise our system of inheritance taxation."

The IFS expects existing disparities between older and younger generations to translate into reduced social mobility within younger generations in the future. The smaller inheritances received by those with poorer parents will mean they have more ground to make up - making it increasingly hard for those with poor parents to move into higher income distribution brackets.

For people born in the 1980s, average inheritances could be nearly twice as large as for the 1960s generation. According to IFS projections, inheritances will be worth nine per cent of household lifetime income for those born in the 1960s, rising to 16 per cent for those born in the 1980s.

Alex Beer, welfare programme head at social well-being charity the Nuffield Foundation, said: "The pandemic has highlighted and exacerbated the social and economic inequalities within our society. This research shines a light on ways in which those inequalities are set to increase even further with the growing importance of inheritances in lifetime incomes."
Click to expand...
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,569
chiefdave said:
Wasn't for a second suggesting everyone is about to vote Green, or even that they should. But its very odd that people who seem to favour polices diametrically opposed to Conservative policies vote for them.

Its nothing to do with how good or bad any other party is. The question that keeps being asked is why are people voting Conservative and nobody seems able to come up with an answer.
Click to expand...

Tradition. We've had a long,long period of right-wing politics and even the only break from that was centre-left at best. Ingrained belief they're a steady hand, party of law-and-order etc and it's just becomes almost Pavlovian.As people get older they tend to move the right as fear of change intensifies and we've had an ageing population for some time.
 
Reactions: chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,570
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Ingrained belief they're a steady hand, party of law-and-order etc and it's just becomes almost Pavlovian.
Click to expand...
Saw a truly bizarre post on Facebook today from Jay Singh-Sohal, the Conservative candidate for Police and Crime Commissioner.

He had Priti Patel endorsing him as candidate on the basis he would stop rising levels of crime. So you've got the Home Secretary of the party under which this rise in crime has taken place, under whose leadership huge cuts to the police have been made, saying vote for the same party to resolve issues they've caused. The other thing he keeps pushing is that he will stop the closure of police stations, something which again has happened under his parties leadership.

Andy Street uses the same tactic. In fact his main polices this time round are pretty much identical to what he promised to deliver if he won the last election. It must work though as they keep winning!
 
Reactions: clint van damme and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,571
chiefdave said:
Saw a truly bizarre post on Facebook today from Jay Singh-Sohal, the Conservative candidate for Police and Crime Commissioner.

He had Priti Patel endorsing him as candidate on the basis he would stop rising levels of crime. So you've got the Home Secretary of the party under which this rise in crime has taken place, under whose leadership huge cuts to the police have been made, saying vote for the same party to resolve issues they've caused. The other thing he keeps pushing is that he will stop the closure of police stations, something which again has happened under his parties leadership.

Andy Street uses the same tactic. In fact his main polices this time round are pretty much identical to what he promised to deliver if he won the last election. It must work though as they keep winning!
Click to expand...

I watched the debate for the WM Mayor and Street was an odd one. Half of the stuff he was talking about i swear he promised last time and/or his party has specifically worked against during that time.

He also seemed pretty fixated on the tram infrastructure as well so he might be a bit boris-like with his expensive pet projects but when social issues came up he didn't really seem particularly engaged. Although to be fair none of the candidates seemed to have that much to say on them as i don't think anyone truly has any idea on how to tackle them and certainly within their own powers without relying on massive legislative change at a national level which none of them can promise.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,572
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Tradition. We've had a long,long period of right-wing politics and even the only break from that was centre-left at best. Ingrained belief they're a steady hand, party of law-and-order etc and it's just becomes almost Pavlovian.As people get older they tend to move the right as fear of change intensifies and we've had an ageing population for some time.
Click to expand...

As people get older they generally grow up and enjoy the benefits of capitalism - it’s nothing to do with fear
 
Reactions: TomRad85 and Deleted member 4439

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,573
Grendel said:
As people get older they generally grow up and enjoy the benefits of capitalism - it’s nothing to do with fear
Click to expand...
Benefits such as the capitalist led banking crisis leading to a world recession and ten years of austerity in this country that punished everyone aside from the capitalists that caused the problem in the first place. Yeah I see your point.
 
Reactions: mrtrench and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,574
Grendel said:
As people get older they generally grow up and enjoy the benefits of capitalism - it’s nothing to do with fear
Click to expand...

For some it is. But for most it's an increasing fear of change as the brain loses its plasticity. They just can't contemplate things being different. Fewer and fewer people are 'enjoying' the benefits of capitalism in this country. Wealth division is huge and increasing at an ever quickening rate.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 30, 2021
  • #1,575
Grendel has just solved the poverty crisis in this country: All those people in poverty who struggle to put food on the table just need to grow up and enjoy it.
 
Reactions: mrtrench
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