Do you want to discuss boring politics? (21 Viewers)

chiefdave · Apr 18, 2021

The best explanation I've heard for why so many people vote Conservative when its not in their best interests was on Radio 4 and came from the head of a PR company used in Camerons 2015 election campaign.

He likened it to a TV talent show. Basically you condition people to think they are just one step away from the life they want. In his example week after week you see people auditioning who can't sing a note but are absolutely convinced it just needs a Simon Cowell to hear them and their career will take off. Its the same trick. You can have everything you need if you just work a bit harder or if there were less foreigners in the country or you don't have to subsidise 'lazy' people.

In his example you substitute in the government and their mates for Simon Cowell as the ones who are making money at you and laughing behind your back. Its the only explanation I've ever heard that I can make sense of.

Deleted member 4439 · Apr 18, 2021

i.e. the working class are thickos.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 18, 2021

dubed said:
It's not rocket science. The reasons are quite straightforward.

1. An aspirational working-class wanting to improve the lives of their families through their own means rather than rely on welfarism and paternalism, and a perception that the Tories always manage the economy better (counter-argument - the working class are stupid).

2. Brexit, and the failure of Corbyn to offer a credible position on Brexit (counter-argument - the working class are racist).

3. The almost farcical lack of credibility around Labour's spending programme, and a discontent with the metropolitan bourgeois and identity politics (counter-argument - the working class are both stupid and racist).

1 - I agree this is how many people would like to be, but why would that make you vote Tory? Any idea that they want to help working class people aspire is generally a fallacy - they want to make rich people and large corporations richer. This might lead to a few more jobs but overall the gains made by ordinary people will be insignificant compared to those made by the already rich. All they do is ignore this disparity when promoting it.

2. This is fair.

3. Labour's spending plans don't fair any worse than the Tories often.

So basically 1 & 3 are about perception, not reality.The idea the Tories manage the economy better and that Labour don't cost their programmes are well are myths. Any improvement in the economy under Tories is usually based on some sort of deregulation or unsustainable model that is doomed to fail eventually. So you might get higher growth early on but it'll be lost within the decade in a recession when whichever bubble they've tagged the economy to bursts.

chiefdave · Apr 18, 2021

Find this topic fascinating as logically you'd expect people to vote for the party whose policies would benefit them the most personally but that doesn't seem to happen.

Evo1883 said:
Where am I being severely hampered by the Tories as a working class man

I see what you're saying but aren't you impacted by the state of public services such as the NHS or huge cuts to council funding etc?

Not to mention austerity leading to an incredibly slow economic recovery and stagnant, or in real terms decreasing, wages while we see a huge transfer of wealth to the elite.

How does that benefit the working class man?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 18, 2021

PVA said:
This continued argument makes no sense.

"I won't vote for Labour because I don't like this man on Twitter, so I'll just vote for the party that continues to wreck the country and gives zero fucks about people like me. That'll teach that nasty man on twitter"

Yep. I really struggle with the fact people who say they don't like a small aspect about Labour then go and vote for the tories whose policies and ethos they'd dislike way more if they looked closely.

Like a turkey not liking part of a turkey sanctuary so deciding to live with Bernard Matthews insteads.

chiefdave · Apr 18, 2021

dubed said:
An aspirational working-class wanting to improve the lives of their families through their own means rather than rely on welfarism and paternalism, and a perception that the Tories always manage the economy better

clint van damme said:
Not saying people aren't aspirational but that's not what the tories offer.

I'm struggling to believe the person working on minimum wage at Tesco or McDonalds thinks if they keep voting Conservative they'll be sending their kids to private school. Just seems another way of saying voters are stupid which I'm not a fan of.

But lets assume thats true, as many are saying, and people are voting Conservative as they are aspirational and believe they can achieve that under the Conservatives. What Conservative policies aid that aspiration?

Grendel · Apr 18, 2021

chiefdave said:
I'm struggling to believe the person working on minimum wage at Tesco or McDonalds thinks if they keep voting Conservative they'll be sending their kids to private school. Just seems another way of saying voters are stupid which I'm not a fan of.

But lets assume thats true, as many are saying, and people are voting Conservative as they are aspirational and believe they can achieve that under the Conservatives. What Conservative policies aid that aspiration?

Oddly not every working class person works at McDonalds or Tesco’s

PVA · Apr 18, 2021

chiefdave said:
Find this topic fascinating as logically you'd expect people to vote for the party whose policies would benefit them the most personally but that doesn't seem to happen.

It's bizarre.

Honestly I think a lot of them vote out of spite. They don't want other people having nice shiny things so they vote against it even if it leaves themselves worse off.

The attitude in this country for a lot of people seems to be not one of wanting to better society but rather to ensure that society doesn't have it better than you.

Deleted member 4439 · Apr 18, 2021

So, we're established that the working class is spiteful, as well as being racist thickos. Anything else?

PVA · Apr 18, 2021

The only one calling them racist thickos is yourself. Repeatedly.

We've asked and asked what's so appealing about the Tories but STILL haven't had an answer.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 18, 2021

PVA said:
The only one calling them racist thickos is yourself. Repeatedly.

We've asked and asked what's so appealing about the Tories but STILL haven't had an answer.

I don’t know how aspiration comes out of making the workforce more reliant on part time, temporary or zero hour work in a decade where living costs have become harder to meet. But this is what is, Labour are never getting in power again and once they lose Wales that will be gone for good too.

Which leaves folks like me in a permanent Tory state they don’t feel part of

Deleted member 4439 · Apr 18, 2021

PVA said:
The only one calling them racist thickos is yourself. Repeatedly.

We've asked and asked what's so appealing about the Tories but STILL haven't had an answer.

Ah, the classic 'ignore what's been posted' and a touch of responding to tone. That's two ticked off.

PVA · Apr 18, 2021

dubed said:
Ah, the classic 'ignore what's been posted' and a touch of responding to tone. That's two ticked off.

The only ones ignoring what's been posted are the those who can't name what's so appealing about the Tories despite being asked 6438153 times

Grendel · Apr 18, 2021

dubed said:
Ah, the classic 'ignore what's been posted' and a touch of responding to tone. That's two ticked off.

Why isn’t anyone saying what Labour would offer to change the status quo

Deleted member 4439 · Apr 18, 2021

PVA said:
The only ones ignoring what's been posted are the those who can't name what's so appealing about the Tories despite being asked 6438153 times

I think maybe then you have skipped a few posts, or you are choosing to ignore, which you do have a tendency to do.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 18, 2021

Grendel said:
Why isn’t anyone saying what Labour would offer to change the status quo

Look at the 2017 manifesto. Personal things I’d like:

£11 minimum wage
Legalisation of cannabis
VAT cut to 17.5% or lower
Increased funding for education with an aim to cap classroom sizes at 25
Nationalisation of rail
Aggressive pursuit of corporate taxes from the worst suspects

PVA · Apr 18, 2021

dubed said:
I think maybe then you have skipped a few posts, or you are choosing to ignore, which you do have a tendency to do.

All I've seen is more 'but Labour posts' and something about aspirations which is just laughable.

Someone asked you which specific Conservative policies would appeal to those working class people with aspirations that you mentioned.

You ignored it.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 18, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Increased funding for education

See it's things like this which are aspirational - even the broadband for all is aspirational. It's giving people the opportunity to upskill, and develop, and progress themselves. It's giving more life chances.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 18, 2021

dubed said:
I think maybe then you have skipped a few posts, or you are choosing to ignore, which you do have a tendency to do.

tbf, ignoring and generalisation isn't really unique to just one poster on just one side of the argument...

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 18, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
See it's things like this which are aspirational - even the broadband for all is aspirational. It's giving people the opportunity to upskill, and develop, and progress themselves. It's giving more life chances.

Higher minimum wages for me work two fold to also cut the welfare bill so we aren’t subsidising wages and also making a job in itself offer more financial security. VAT being cut would also make a substantial difference to living costs and businesses all round.

Grendel · Apr 18, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Look at the 2017 manifesto. Personal things I’d like:

£11 minimum wage
Legalisation of cannabis
VAT cut to 17.5% or lower
Increased funding for education with an aim to cap classroom sizes at 25
Nationalisation of rail
Aggressive pursuit of corporate taxes from the worst suspects

Most people couldn’t care about any of those things. They aren’t big issue vote winners

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 18, 2021

Grendel said:
Most people couldn’t care about any of those things. They aren’t big issue vote winners

People don’t care about a tax cut and higher wages?

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 18, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Higher minimum wages for me work two fold to also cut the welfare bill so we aren’t subsidising wages and also making a job in itself offer more financial security. VAT being cut would also make a substantial difference to living costs and businesses all round.

A lot of raising up benefits everybody, mind. There is a certain individualistic attitude in society though, that's got worse over time, which sees aspiration as improving yourself... with no downside for yourself, no payoff. I always admired my Granddad's attitude and yep, good working class stock, my Gran's family were chainmakers in the Black Country. But he was in the Navy, came out, went to night school to re-train and, well, never had *much* money but was at least able to own his own home, and his own car. His attitude was that being fortunate, it was time to give others a better opportunity than he had if possible and, if that meant higher taxes to pay for better education, better health, a better welfare state...then that was the price to pay, and he owed society for the chances he'd had himself.

It's a tough sell, that, though, when many people look at the immediate what's in your wallet right now position.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 18, 2021

Grendel said:
Most people couldn’t care about any of those things. They aren’t big issue vote winners

Whereas cronyism, corruption and benefit to the rich are?

You've not answered the question what do the tories offer

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 18, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
A lot of raising up benefits everybody, mind. There is a certain individualistic attitude in society though, that's got worse over time, which sees aspiration as improving yourself... with no downside for yourself, no payoff. I always admired my Granddad's attitude and yep, good working class stock, my Gran's family were chainmakers in the Black Country. But he was in the Navy, came out, went to night school to re-train and, well, never had *much* money but was at least able to own his own home, and his own car. His attitude was that being fortunate, it was time to give others a better opportunity than he had if possible and, if that meant higher taxes to pay for better education, better health, a better welfare state...then that was the price to pay, and he owed society for the chances he'd had himself.

It's a tough sell, that, though, when many people look at the immediate what's in your wallet right now position.

My grandad was in a miners’ family, got a place at a grammar school, then became a doctor and didn’t look back. Always voted Labour afterwards though not because his dad did (the ‘thick working class’ version for Labour voters) but because he didn’t think it was much for others to have access to what he did even if it meant his tax bill was higher.

Now as firmly middle class as his grandson is I also don’t care if my bill is a bit higher if it makes life easier for everyone.

Grendel · Apr 18, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
People don’t care about a tax cut and higher wages?

Most people aren’t on minimum wages and would not believe the tax cut anyway

Grendel · Apr 18, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Whereas cronyism, corruption and benefit to the rich are?

You've not answered the question what do the tories offer

The Tories are in government they don’t have to offer anything other than the status quo of the majority of people are happy with that and cliche nonsense on paragraph 1 - no one gives a toss

PVA · Apr 18, 2021

Grendel said:
Most people aren’t on minimum wages and would not believe the tax cut anyway

... Yet believe every word that comes out of Boris Johnson's mouth

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 18, 2021

Grendel said:
Most people aren’t on minimum wages and would not believe the tax cut anyway

They wouldn’t believe it despite it having been 17.5% for years? If people don’t care about money in their pocket Christ knows what they do.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 18, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
They wouldn’t believe it despite it having been 17.5% for years? If people don’t care about money in their pocket Christ knows what they do.

Effectively he's saying people are stupid

Grendel · Apr 18, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
They wouldn’t believe it despite it having been 17.5% for years? If people don’t care about money in their pocket Christ knows what they do.

Well again whether you like or not the Labour Party is second when trusted on the economy and has a hurdle to overcome and a reduced consumer spending tax could be then supported by higher taxation in other areas

Grendel · Apr 18, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
Effectively he's saying people are stupid

No they are smarter than the average Labour voter on here - election promises withdrawn - shock horror

stupot07 · Apr 18, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Look at the 2017 manifesto. Personal things I’d like:

£11 minimum wage
Legalisation of cannabis
VAT cut to 17.5% or lower
Increased funding for education with an aim to cap classroom sizes at 25
Nationalisation of rail
Aggressive pursuit of corporate taxes from the worst suspects

I've heard from a reliable source Education funding is going to be cut in real terms from September onwards.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

stupot07 · Apr 18, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
See it's things like this which are aspirational - even the broadband for all is aspirational. It's giving people the opportunity to upskill, and develop, and progress themselves. It's giving more life chances.

Free University enabling all that want to, can go, is aspirational.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Grendel · Apr 18, 2021

stupot07 said:
Free University enabling all that want to, can go, is aspirational.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Actually it’s a joke policy that’s watered down the education system and the consequences are huge future burdens to the taxpayer

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