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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (102 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,476
PVA said:
Yep, I used to work with a guy like this.

Didn't want to earn more and go to a higher tax band because he didn't want to 'give all his money to the tax man'. Not realising that he would still be earning more money than he is now. Just a bizarre logic.
Click to expand...
But is it though? If he's comfortable and only getting a small margin more, then the hassle and expectation that sometimes goes with that next level up is not for everyone and quite a trade off.
 

hill83

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,477
Bloke I used to work with thought if you hit £50k they instantly take 40% of your money off you so you are better off earning £49k.
 
Reactions: Evo1883, skybluetony176, Sky_Blue_Dreamer and 5 others
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PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,478
rob9872 said:
So you think pensioners should pay NI after they've already paid for 50 years?
Click to expand...

If they're still working yes.

If a 67 year old is working and earning £60k why shouldn't they pay NI while a 25 year old earning £20k does?
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,479
hill83 said:
Bloke I used to work with thought if you hit £50k they instantly take 40% of your money off you so you are better off earning £49k.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think there's a few people who think like that!
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,480
rob9872 said:
Last time I checked nursing was a caring profession that people went into not just for wealth or career only and yet despite that they do quite nicely. I imagine most nurses (who I agree do a fantastic job) earn more than lots of people on this board with an average salary over £33k. They are far from the breadline although you'd not think that with all of the outrage when they only get a 3% increase - an increase that doesn't only go to the front line, but many of the tory hating middle management pen pushers that the NHS is filled up with playing the system.
Click to expand...

You were the one that equated higher earnings as people 'bettering themselves'.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,481
rob9872 said:
I love how all of those who didn't even vote for the manifesto are the ones most outraged by it being broken, because they can use it as a new stick to beat the Govt with. You can argue all day about the root cause to suit your agenda, but surely you must with your roots, applaud the increase and what it's being used for.

Those who possibly could rightfully be outraged are people like me who voted for them, are paying the increase and don't have huge savings, but after the past 18 months it's a small price to pay and nothing that can't be reversed in time. If anything they should be commended for recognising the shortfall, finding a solution and having the balls to make that change to their direction knowing how unpopular a decision it would be.
Click to expand...

Govenrments are for everyone not just people who voted for them.

Social care 100% needs funding, but this isn’t that. This is basically pandemic costs which should be borrowed and paid off over time like any other emergency disaster spending. And we should be taxing wealth not work IMO.
 
Reactions: AOM, Ian1779 and PVA
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,482
hill83 said:
Bloke I used to work with thought if you hit £50k they instantly take 40% of your money off you so you are better off earning £49k.
Click to expand...
I assume he was nowhere close to that, then
 
Reactions: hill83

hill83

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,483
Deleted member 5849 said:
I assume he was nowhere close to that, then
Click to expand...

Suggesting people who don't earn much are thick bastards are we?
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,484
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
You were the one that equated higher earnings as people 'bettering themselves'.
Click to expand...
I was and I stand by it, just don't agree with the 'poor nurses' sentiment. They do a great job, but are far from poor.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,485
rob9872 said:
Last time I checked nursing was a caring profession that people went into not just for wealth or career only and yet despite that they do quite nicely. I imagine most nurses (who I agree do a fantastic job) earn more than lots of people on this board with an average salary over £33k. They are far from the breadline although you'd not think that with all of the outrage when they only get a 3% increase - an increase that doesn't only go to the front line, but many of the tory hating middle management pen pushers that the NHS is filled up with playing the system.
Click to expand...

TIL earning £2k above the average wage is “doing quite nicely”. JFC man. Have some self respect.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,486
rob9872 said:
Yeah lets penalise people for trying to save and look after their money in favour of those who piss it up the wall (also it wouldn't have generated anywhere near as much, but don't let that get in the way of a good grandstanding soundbyte)
Click to expand...
Nurses have basically just fronted their own pay rise with the increase in NI, many of whom have also just lost a lump sum of working tax credits and many of whom rely on food banks. What are they pissing up the wall exactly? Doesn’t need to be nurses either, there’s no shortage of working families who again are about to lose a lump sum of working tax credits and that on top of a NI hike of over 10%. Again what are they pissing up the wall.
 

COV

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,487
rob9872 said:
I was and I stand by it, just don't agree with the 'poor nurses' sentiment. They do a great job, but are far from poor.
Click to expand...

You say that based on?
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,488
rob9872 said:
So it's progressive until it's regressive. The % might reduce, but the contributions increase. Earn more, pay more unless it doesn't suit the agenda so play with a different matrix.
Click to expand...

Claiming it's progressive because there's a LEL under which people don't contribute is a bit of a stretch. Once you start contributing the percentage you pay goes down the more you earn.

That makes it regressive.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,489
COV said:
You say that based on?
Click to expand...
Based on their average earnings of over £33k
 
Reactions: chiefdave, Jamesimus and shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,490
Yeah can’t move down in Monaco for NHS Nurses in their Lambos
 
Reactions: chiefdave, AOM, skybluetony176 and 2 others

Jamesimus

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,491
rob9872 said:
So you think pensioners should pay NI after they've already paid for 50 years?
Click to expand...

If they can afford it, why not?!

Obviously, not all pensioners are in that boat and some struggle. Should be a tax based on relative wealth (inclusive of assets) rather than accross the board.

Which is a shame because obviously wealth = you have worked harder and made yourself "better" according to some on here
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer and PVA

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,492
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Claiming it's progressive because there's a LEL under which people don't contribute is a bit of a stretch. Once you start contributing the percentage you pay goes down the more you earn.

That makes it regressive.
Click to expand...
Only because you're quoting in % and not actual monetary terms which makes it progressive. It's just changing to suit whether you feel it's fair or not. Higher earners pay more into the society pot but only use the same amount. If it were anywhere other than the UK, with our NHS system where we all paid for what we used then there would be a much greater disparity in affordability. Higher earners are already propping up and paying more than their share, so I simply can't see how making them pay even more is right, but even with this tax hike they are.
 

COV

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,493
rob9872 said:
Based on their average earnings of over £33k
Click to expand...

I earn more than that and I sit on my arse all day, do less hours, never have overtime and I sure as hell haven't ever saved anyone's life. They are underpaid, and wasn't there that controversy where the govt rejected any raises in the pandemic while handing themselves payrises & handing out contracts to chums which turned out to be useless?

Mostly though you seemed to be connecting salary with worth with this talk of 'bettering yourself', which is a pretty horrendous thing to be doing imho
 
Reactions: skybluetony176 and Jamesimus

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,494
shmmeee said:
Yeah can’t move down in Monaco for NHS Nurses in their Lambos
Click to expand...
I didn't say rich or well off, but not poor which was advocated and a direct quote. A worldo fo difference. I'm not poor, but I also can't afford a lambo in monaco.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,495
hill83 said:
Suggesting people who don't earn much are thick bastards are we?
Click to expand...
Yeah, we are
 

COV

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,496
rob9872 said:
Only because you're quoting in % and not actual monetary terms which makes it progressive. It's just changing to suit whether you feel it's fair or not. Higher earners pay more into the society pot but only use the same amount. If it were anywhere other than the UK, with our NHS system where we all paid for what we used then there would be a much greater disparity in affordability. Higher earners are already propping up and paying more than their share, so I simply can't see how making them pay even more is right, but even with this tax hike they are.
Click to expand...

When you say 'higher earners', have you seen the effective taxrates of the really high earners? They absolutely, most definitely do NOT prop up anything.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,497
COV said:
I earn more than that
Click to expand...

 
Reactions: Evo1883 and Jamesimus

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,498
COV said:
I earn more than that and I sit on my arse all day, do less hours, never have overtime and I sure as hell haven't ever saved anyone's life. They are underpaid, and wasn't there that controversy where the govt rejected any raises in the pandemic while handing themselves payrises & handing out contracts to chums which turned out to be useless?

Mostly though you seemed to be connecting salary with worth with this talk of 'bettering yourself', which is a pretty horrendous thing to be doing imho
Click to expand...
If they are paid above average they are not poor. They chose to go into a profession knowing the rates of pay as do plenty of other heroes in the army, police or fire services. All are important. All are paid above average salary. All deserve it. None can claim the wages are poor.
 
Reactions: bezzer and Grendel

hill83

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,499
rob9872 said:
Only because you're quoting in % and not actual monetary terms
Click to expand...

Correct. And that's where the argument is coming from. It should be percentage, you say it shouldn't be.
This could go on forever.
 
Reactions: AOM and Deleted member 5849

COV

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,500
rob9872 said:
If they are paid above average they are not poor. They chose to go into a profession knowing the rates of pay as do plenty of other heroes in the army, police or fire services. All are important. All are paid above average salary. All deserve it. None can claim the wages are poor.
Click to expand...

Try converting them to an hourly rate
 

hill83

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,501
The value of money is relative. 50p was unimaginable wealth when I was 5.
Rich Dave paying an extra £700 a year while Broke Bob is paying £200 but a higher percentage of what he earns is a shit one for Bob. But wouldn't touch the sides for Dave.
 
Reactions: skybluetony176, Sky_Blue_Dreamer, Deleted member 5849 and 1 other person

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,502
hill83 said:
Correct. And that's where the argument is coming from. It should be percentage, you say it shouldn't be.
This could go on forever.
Click to expand...

Here is a percentage figure

Top 1% of earners in UK account for more than a third of income tax

Tax revenues ever more reliant on small group of high earners, says Institute for Fiscal Studies
www.theguardian.com
 
Reactions: rob9872

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,503
COV said:
Try converting them to an hourly rate
Click to expand...
Not a game you want o play. They get paid for all the hours they work and more holidays than the average job too (I used to work for the NHS!)
 
Reactions: shmmeee

hill83

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,504
Grendel said:
Here is a percentage figure

Top 1% of earners in UK account for more than a third of income tax

Tax revenues ever more reliant on small group of high earners, says Institute for Fiscal Studies
www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...

I meant specific to this increase. I know a huge amount of the tax revenue comes from the highest earners.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,505
rob9872 said:
I love how all of those who didn't even vote for the manifesto are the ones most outraged by it being broken, because they can use it as a new stick to beat the Govt with. You can argue all day about the root cause to suit your agenda, but surely you must with your roots, applaud the increase and what it's being used for.

Those who possibly could rightfully be outraged are people like me who voted for them, are paying the increase and don't have huge savings, but after the past 18 months it's a small price to pay and nothing that can't be reversed in time. If anything they should be commended for recognising the shortfall, finding a solution and having the balls to make that change to their direction knowing how unpopular a decision it would be.
Click to expand...
There is no applause or credit to be given here.
The right and proper thing to do was to implement some kind of wealth tax to get the money to fund social care.
What they have done as usual is kowtow to their ‘influencers’ and ‘donors’ and implanted a regressive and punitive tax on those that earn the least in society.

Save your energy as well replying with some bollocks counter argument about people taking their money out of the country because it’s rubbish.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer and PVA

hill83

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,506
And since I'm here, I've personally got no issue with paying more tax.
 
Reactions: chiefdave, Deleted member 9744, shmmeee and 3 others

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,507
rob9872 said:
So you think pensioners should pay NI after they've already paid for 50 years?
Click to expand...

Well, the argument is they're still using the services. And as more and more people get older the system has more and more people to care for with less and less people contributing. They still pay income tax.

When it was started the amount you contributed paid for those now and then future generations would pay yours. But that was when we didn't have so many old people living so long. Even if you looked at it as you building up credit for old age, previous generations were paying for a retirement that might last 10 years. Now it's closer to 20. We may well end up at a situation whereby people are spending more time retired and not contributing than they did working and contributing. So either retirement age needs to be extended or contributions need to continue once you do.

I don't see why NI shouldn't be part of pension payments. Richer people are likely to live longer and get higher pension payments so basically it's another way of richer people avoiding paying. They often get paid more, for longer, and don't have to contribute.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,508
Have never got the "poor nurses have to use food banks to survive" if they are on over 30k.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,509
hill83 said:
And since I'm here, I've personally got no issue with paying more tax.
Click to expand...

Paid too much to care.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Sep 8, 2021
  • #6,510
hill83 said:
And since I'm here, I've personally got no issue with paying more tax.
Click to expand...
Nor me. Investment in all our futures, innit
 
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