Do you want to discuss boring politics? (27 Viewers)

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Pretty sure the government has increased taxes by £40bn pa and changed fiscal rules to increase borrowing by the same per annum. Combined that’s an extra £300-£400bn over the parliament

We currently spend £100bn+ pa servicing debt. Inflation is still nearly double target. You borrow more and debt servicing costs will increase further as we have zero credibility as the markets don’t believe the party will allow treasury to control spending.

I agree that reeves policies in particular NI increase have damaged growth though. It was idiotic and has also probably indirectly increased inflation. The government should’ve had the bottle to just raise main taxes and promised to reduce once finances were in better state….and blamed the Tories. Any above inflation public sector pay rises should’ve had strings attached
I bow to your and grendels greater knowledge and experience of managing the uk economy

Thanks for suggesting alternative solutions
Is she just stupid then or genuinely believed that the tories didn’t care and if you care things will be better
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Question for one of the many economists we have on here:

What's the benefit of servicing debt and borrowing? If all of the major economies have huge national debt, I assume it can only be to the banks, but they'll be privately owned and therefore investing back in those same economies. Why wouldn't an economy like ours, look at quantitative easing and create the money to match their debt then slowly reduce it over time? It would short term devalue the currency, but long term you only owe to yourselves and stop paying interest on interest. I've thought it for a while and pretty sure I'm missing a trick somewhere as greater minds than mine must've considered and dismissed the idea.
It’s a reform policy isn’t it?
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Question for one of the many economists we have on here:

What's the benefit of servicing debt and borrowing? If all of the major economies have huge national debt, I assume it can only be to the banks, but they'll be privately owned and therefore investing back in those same economies. Why wouldn't an economy like ours, look at quantitative easing and create the money to match their debt then slowly reduce it over time? It would short term devalue the currency, but long term you only owe to yourselves and stop paying interest on interest. I've thought it for a while and pretty sure I'm missing a trick somewhere as greater minds than mine must've considered and dismissed the idea.
Pension funds are large holders of government bonds. They represent a rock solid investment under written by the issuer of the currency which is obviously better than gambling pensions on the stock market or in property investments. They are not strictly necessary though and government literally create all the money it wishes to spend.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
Pension funds are large holders of government bonds. They represent a rock solid investment under written by the issuer of the currency which is obviously better than gambling pensions on the stock market or in property investments. They are not strictly necessary though and government literally create all the money it wishes to spend.
Thanks for the reply, although doesn't really form any part of why they should or shouldn't do the same to eradicate the national debt. Presumably those bonds and the pensions would temporarily be weaker, but still guaranteed to their locked in %. It's the interest on the debt that could be used to benefit services I'm looking to drive down and at the same time wouldn't need a tax raise to cover it.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply, although doesn't really form any part of why they should or shouldn't do the same to eradicate the national debt. Presumably those bonds and the pensions would temporarily be weaker, but still guaranteed to their locked in %. It's the interest on the debt that could be used to benefit services I'm looking to drive down and at the same time wouldn't need a tax raise to cover it.

Why would you want to eradicate the national debt?
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
Why would you want to eradicate the national debt?
Because we're paying £111bn each year to service that £3tr debt. Surely ot would be better to have no debt and pump that £111bn into services instead of interest? As I say, I'm a novice in this area, so I need someone to explain to me in Janet and John style words, why it's not a good a idea to get rid of it.
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Question for one of the many economists we have on here:

What's the benefit of servicing debt and borrowing? If all of the major economies have huge national debt, I assume it can only be to the banks, but they'll be privately owned and therefore investing back in those same economies. Why wouldn't an economy like ours, look at quantitative easing and create the money to match their debt then slowly reduce it over time? It would short term devalue the currency, but long term you only owe to yourselves and stop paying interest on interest. I've thought it for a while and pretty sure I'm missing a trick somewhere as greater minds than mine must've considered and dismissed the idea.

I’m no economist and it’s complex but I will try to explain my view…you might be better trying Google Ai though !

Firstly, I’d imagine if you proposed this the market for U.K. gilts would collapse as anyone holding would likely sell off due to uncertainty and knowing they are being paid back with money printed/made out of thin air. All making large losses potentially causing huge pension, bank and investor issues

Id also imagine we’d lose all credibility as a country and again due to uncertainty Sterling would sell off/devalue, this would massively increase import costs/prices (as we all know we manufacture fuck all). As costs increase on the back of this, people would start to charge more because they’re worried prices of their inputs will continue to increase, employees will want more pay etc ….so inflation would likely snowball. Who would invest in a country where this is happening ? Everyone’s savings and investments would also suddenly be worth a lot less due to debasement. Anyone holding significant amounts of Sterling would sell/exchange, devaluing it further. I’d imagine the experiment would end very quickly with a financial crisis.

Japan are the only large economy that have semi done what your suggesting recently, their debt to gdp is 250%+ and the Bank of Japan owns about 50% of government debt. They’ve done it more to control borrowing costs rather than full replacement. I personally think they’re in the shit, time will tell. Smaller countries have ended up with hyper inflation.

My overriding view of QE has always been it negatively impacts the poorest (who don’t own assets) most. Id rather us front up to the public and tax people more which is a fairer/more progressive solution that QE. I also believe QE has been totally misused in recent years (fair enough in 2009) which is possibly one of the biggest drivers behind the massive increase in wealth inequality. Thats not to say it doesn’t have a place in terms of liquidity etc like during financial crisis or to help fund/boost economy during times of major recessions where inflation is less of a risk

It’s not a silly question though, many on the left believe stuff like this is possible. Maybe it is but I personally wouldn’t want us to try it and wouldn’t hang around to see the results
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
I’m no economist and it’s complex but I will try to explain my view…you might be better trying Google Ai though !

Firstly, I’d imagine if you proposed this the market for U.K. gilts would collapse as anyone holding would likely sell off due to uncertainty and knowing they are being paid back with money printed/made out of thin air. All making large losses potentially causing huge pension, bank and investor issues

Id also imagine we’d lose all credibility as a country and again due to uncertainty Sterling would sell off/devalue, this would massively increase import costs/prices (as we all know we manufacture fuck all). As costs increase on the back of this, people would start to charge more because they’re worried prices of their inputs will continue to increase, employees will want more pay etc ….so inflation would likely snowball. Who would invest in a country where this is happening ? Everyone’s savings and investments would also suddenly be worth a lot less due to debasement. Anyone holding significant amounts of Sterling would sell/exchange, devaluing it further. I’d imagine the experiment would end very quickly with a financial crisis.

Japan are the only large economy that have semi done what your suggesting recently, their debt to gdp is 250%+ and the Bank of Japan owns about 50% of government debt. They’ve done it more to control borrowing costs rather than full replacement. I personally think they’re in the shit, time will tell. Smaller countries have ended up with hyper inflation.

My overriding view of QE has always been it negatively impacts the poorest (who don’t own assets) most. Id rather us front up to the public and tax people more which is a fairer/more progressive solution that QE. I also believe QE has been totally misused in recent years (fair enough in 2009) which is possibly one of the biggest drivers behind the massive increase in wealth inequality. Thats not to say it doesn’t have a place in terms of liquidity etc like during financial crisis or to help fund/boost economy during times of recession where inflation is less of a risk

It’s not a silly question though, many on the left believe stuff like this is possible. Maybe it is but I personally wouldn’t want us to try it and wouldn’t hang around to see the results
Thanks 👍
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
For anyone interested and not fast asleep after my post, this is a pretty good explanation of QE

 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
I’m no economist and it’s complex but I will try to explain my view…you might be better trying Google Ai though !

Firstly, I’d imagine if you proposed this the market for U.K. gilts would collapse as anyone holding would likely sell off due to uncertainty and knowing they are being paid back with money printed/made out of thin air. All making large losses potentially causing huge pension, bank and investor issues

Id also imagine we’d lose all credibility as a country and again due to uncertainty Sterling would sell off/devalue, this would massively increase import costs/prices (as we all know we manufacture fuck all). As costs increase on the back of this, people would start to charge more because they’re worried prices of their inputs will continue to increase, employees will want more pay etc ….so inflation would likely snowball. Who would invest in a country where this is happening ? Everyone’s savings and investments would also suddenly be worth a lot less due to debasement. Anyone holding significant amounts of Sterling would sell/exchange, devaluing it further. I’d imagine the experiment would end very quickly with a financial crisis.

Japan are the only large economy that have semi done what your suggesting recently, their debt to gdp is 250%+ and the Bank of Japan owns about 50% of government debt. They’ve done it more to control borrowing costs rather than full replacement. I personally think they’re in the shit, time will tell. Smaller countries have ended up with hyper inflation.

My overriding view of QE has always been it negatively impacts the poorest (who don’t own assets) most. Id rather us front up to the public and tax people more which is a fairer/more progressive solution that QE. I also believe QE has been totally misused in recent years (fair enough in 2009) which is possibly one of the biggest drivers behind the massive increase in wealth inequality. Thats not to say it doesn’t have a place in terms of liquidity etc like during financial crisis or to help fund/boost economy during times of major recessions where inflation is less of a risk

It’s not a silly question though, many on the left believe stuff like this is possible. Maybe it is but I personally wouldn’t want us to try it and wouldn’t hang around to see the results
Look at the cost of housing… assets have ballooned so not only are houses difficult for ordinary people to buy, they’re also spending record %s of their income on maintaining a house.

I’m finalising a purchase of a house and my deposit was significantly more than my mum’s mortgage for the family home.

The Blairite consensus (1997-) is dying and what comes next needs a real radical shake up. With Starmer, he’s one of history’s ‘nearly men’ and is just not the right person to lead the country in today’s political climate.

The gilt market shock that kicked out Truss was a watershed. It will paralyse this governments spending commitments and the budget this autumn will be designed to keep this in check. Hence unpopular tax rises and/or public spending cuts. I was listening to a podcast recently that stated something like ‘81% of government borrowing is used on paying off old borrowing’.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top