Do you want to discuss boring politics? (47 Viewers)

[fatso]

The standard working week in Italy is 40 hours.

31.6 hours in Spain


Fucking slackers!

 

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[skybluetony176]

31.6 hours in Spain


Fucking slackers!

No it isn’t, it’s 40. Mandated in Spanish law. The current government wants it reduced to 37.5 for a better work life balance and more inline with Scandinavian countries.

 

[Grendel]

Italy, France and Spain are about 2.5 years longer than us and among the world top 10-15. We’re around 40th

There are numerous factors including current age of existing population. Germany is identical. It doesn’t statistically prove much.

 

[shmmeee]

It’s portion sizes rather than carbs that are the problem, IMO - unless we’re talking stuff like processed bread.

Yeah carbs are just calorie control. Just feels easier to buy a healthy option in Europe so maybe once I adjusted I’d eat just as much…

 

[shmmeee]

Massively increasing the defence budget while capping child benefit and stopping the winter fuel allowance and cutting welfare payments is totally immoral.

Who the fuck prioritises bombs and bullets over caring for those in need???

We dont need to pay more tax, we need to prioritise spending where it's needed. And stop throwing billions away on BS projects.

Absolute fantasy. We’ve had 14 years of cuts and cancellations and are no further forward. Ultimately you get what you pay for and people cost more over their lives than they used to, you can cry and scream and kick your feet all you like but people will keep getting older. And if they don’t something has gone seriously wrong.

 

[rob9872]

Absolute fantasy. We’ve had 14 years of cuts and cancellations and are no further forward. Ultimately you get what you pay for and people cost more over their lives than they used to, you can cry and scream and kick your feet all you like but people will keep getting older. And if they don’t something has gone seriously wrong.

It's almost like a worldwide pandemic and furlough never happen post Brexit. I'm convinced we would have been on the right path.

 

[fernandopartridge]

We should get rid of the police in case they actually get crime rates down and then aren't needed.

p

Yep, nothing to do with the poor doctors prescribing, or the unhealthy, lazy individual, or the BMA that negotiated the mess of the GP contracts under Blair. Where’s the responsibility or accountability ???

I read this recently

‘90 per cent of surgeries have now abolished the old “list” system, in which each GP was dedicated to their own list of patients. The BMA thought this change was a great triumph of negotiation but it has turned out to be a disastrous mistake.

A study of more than four million patients in Norway found that people who see the same GP regularly are 28 per cent less likely to go to hospital and 25 per cent less likely to die. If a doctor knows you and your family, they are far less likely to get a diagnosis wrong. The best way to keep us healthy and out of hospital is if someone has responsibility to make that happen. But if patients become like anonymous call centre customers, the reverse is true’

ps i do also find the pushing of prescriptions drugs for everything pretty disgraceful. The final call is the doctors though

The practice has the list, not the individual doctor. This has been the case forever. The reason you can't see the same doctor every time is that demand is higher. The number of appointments in the latest data is 17% higher than just six years ago with GP FTEs at best flat.

 

[fatso]

Absolute fantasy. We’ve had 14 years of cuts and cancellations and are no further forward. Ultimately you get what you pay for and people cost more over their lives than they used to, you can cry and scream and kick your feet all you like but people will keep getting older. And if they don’t something has gone seriously wrong.

Zero sense made

I'm aware you want to take every opportunity to bash the tories, and I've no wish to defend them, but a labour government that's determined to not only continue the cuts while somehow finding more money for weapons, is completely indefensible.

(I've no idea what people getting older has to do with my comment)

 

[CCFCSteve]

p

The practice has the list, not the individual doctor. This has been the case forever. The reason you can't see the same doctor every time is that demand is higher. The number of appointments in the latest data is 17% higher than just six years ago with GP FTEs at best flat.

Historically people would by in large see the same GP, however, there were changes to the contracts under Blair that the BMA negotiated that removed certain requirements for GP practices

A short history of the GP contract and its evolution in England

This brief history of the GP contract shows that current criticisms of the contract have endured for decades and describes how four fundamental revisions of the national contract have tried to address perceived problems with previous versions. It also summarises evaluations that have assessed...

www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk

‘The 2004 GMS contract moved from individual GP contracts to contracts held by the practice, allowing for greater flexibility and potentially facilitating the development of larger, multi-GP practices’

They could also opt out of out of hours care, which everyone did, leaving the burden on A&E

Agree that the numbers of appointments have gone up following covid and also population rise but people not consistently seeing the same GP appears to had a negative impact on the country’s health

edit - it’s a major issue I have with hospitals as well. I reckon my mum was seen/checked in on by five different consultants in her final two weeks in hospital. Totally inefficient, lack of consistency and in some respects dangerous

 

[chiefdave]

Once again I feel I have to remind people which demographic is the main driver of increased healthcare costs as well as benefits costs and it’s not working age people.

My Dad hit mid 70s and was at the doctors / hospital at least once a week. He's now into his 4th year in a care home, which despite me paying 4 figures every month must be costing the NHS hundreds of thousands because we won't have a sensible conversation about right to die.

My Mum is 'healthy' but is regularly at the doctors.

I have several health issues ongoing but probably access healthcare services less than either of them!

 

[Ccfcisparks]

My Dad hit mid 70s and was at the doctors / hospital at least once a week. He's now into his 4th year in a care home, which despite me paying 4 figures every month must be costing the NHS hundreds of thousands because we won't have a sensible conversation about right to die.

My Mum is 'healthy' but is regularly at the doctors.

I have several health issues ongoing but probably access healthcare services less than either of them!

Part of me wonders if the older generation like going to the doctors as its some sort of social contact.

 

[CCFCSteve]

My Dad hit mid 70s and was at the doctors / hospital at least once a week. He's now into his 4th year in a care home, which despite me paying 4 figures every month must be costing the NHS hundreds of thousands because we won't have a sensible conversation about right to die.

My Mum is 'healthy' but is regularly at the doctors.

I have several health issues ongoing but probably access healthcare services less than either of them!

Sorry to hear that Dave. I hope your heath issues can improve soon and your mum and dad remain as comfortable as possible (the difficulties of getting old - for both the parents and kids)

 

[chiefdave]

Yep, nothing to do with the poor doctors prescribing, or the unhealthy, lazy individual, or the BMA that negotiated the mess of the GP contracts under Blair. Where’s the responsibility or accountability ???

I read this recently

‘90 per cent of surgeries have now abolished the old “list” system, in which each GP was dedicated to their own list of patients. The BMA thought this change was a great triumph of negotiation but it has turned out to be a disastrous mistake.

A study of more than four million patients in Norway found that people who see the same GP regularly are 28 per cent less likely to go to hospital and 25 per cent less likely to die. If a doctor knows you and your family, they are far less likely to get a diagnosis wrong. The best way to keep us healthy and out of hospital is if someone has responsibility to make that happen. But if patients become like anonymous call centre customers, the reverse is true’

ps i do also find the pushing of prescriptions drugs for everything pretty disgraceful. The final call is the doctors though

How long ago was the GP contract changed though, we can't keep blaming that decades on. Get something done about it. None of the proposals since to 'improve' care have involved undoing those changes.

Don't think it's fundamentally an issue of not having the list and not seeing the GP. Its how piss poor they are at passing information between the various privately run parts of the NHS and the fact that if you do actually get to see a doctor they're rushing you out the door before you've sat down.

I've literally had the same appointment with the same GP at my surgery twice, pretty much word for word. I had the initial appointment and was, as usual, given a pill to pop and a follow up was scheduled. At the follow up he basically did the initial appointment again and prescribed me the same thing until I pointed out he'd already done that and this was the follow up. Despite it being the same GP he had no clue I already had the medication and he was supposed to be checking it was working. I've had numerous test results lost between the hospital and my GP 'they're on a different system', I've been prescribed meds, had a severe reaction and then a few months later been prescribed the same thing. The system is fucked.

Friends mrs is a doctor. She got head hunted to go and work in Norway. She couldn't believe the differences in approach. Her workload is tiny compared to what it is here. When she sees a patient she has 30 minutes and the onus is on wraparound care without just giving them a pill and telling them to go away.

 

[chiefdave]

Part of me wonders if the older generation like going to the doctors as its some sort of social contact.

When I ended up in A&E for 3 days they were saying this is a huge problem. The % of people they are dealing with who are either lonely old, or not even old, people who just want company, people with addiction or mental health issues who would have in the past been dealt with by now closed down specialist services, or homeless people with nowhere else to go.

Then add in all the people that turn up because they can't get a GP appointment.

 

[Grendel]

When I ended up in A&E for 3 days they were saying this is a huge problem. The % of people they are dealing with who are either lonely old, or not even old, people who just want company, people with addiction or mental health issues who would have in the past been dealt with by now closed down specialist services, or homeless people with nowhere else to go.

Then add in all the people that turn up because they can't get a GP appointment.

People should just be chucked out if they aren’t going for a reason

 

[Ccfcisparks]

People should just be chucked out if they aren’t going for a reason

I’ve only been to A&E once recently but I couldn’t believe how lax it was. Anyone could just turn up and sit there for however long they wanted. Two receptionists, and the rest of the doctors and nurses just hidden away. Was there for 9 hours.

a bloke was there waiting all day for pain killers for an infected tooth

 

[tisza]

Part of me wonders if the older generation like going to the doctors as its some sort of social contact.

Loneliness is a growing social problem. Problem is there are so many varied causes.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Loneliness is a growing social problem. Problem is there are so many varied causes.

Social media, and the online environment is a major player for young people 30 and below I'd say.

 

[tisza]

Then add in all the people that turn up because they can't get a GP appointment.

ALso the GP "triage" system is tending to send people straight to hospital before they even see a GP.

 

[tisza]

Social media, and the online environment is a major player for young people 30 and below I'd say.

Can add in living longer past the retirement (often alone), smaller families (or even no kids), insufficient spaces in social care housing (exacerbated by dominance of private sector) just another few.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Can add in living longer past the retirement (often alone), smaller families (or even no kids), insufficient spaces in social care housing (exacerbated by dominance of private sector) just another few.

I'd be interested to know what the loneliness epidemic is like in other european countries.

@Sick Boy whats it like in Italy

 

[Sick Boy]

How long ago was the GP contract changed though, we can't keep blaming that decades on. Get something done about it. None of the proposals since to 'improve' care have involved undoing those changes.

Don't think it's fundamentally an issue of not having the list and not seeing the GP. Its how piss poor they are at passing information between the various privately run parts of the NHS and the fact that if you do actually get to see a doctor they're rushing you out the door before you've sat down.

I've literally had the same appointment with the same GP at my surgery twice, pretty much word for word. I had the initial appointment and was, as usual, given a pill to pop and a follow up was scheduled. At the follow up he basically did the initial appointment again and prescribed me the same thing until I pointed out he'd already done that and this was the follow up. Despite it being the same GP he had no clue I already had the medication and he was supposed to be checking it was working. I've had numerous test results lost between the hospital and my GP 'they're on a different system', I've been prescribed meds, had a severe reaction and then a few months later been prescribed the same thing. The system is fucked.

Friends mrs is a doctor. She got head hunted to go and work in Norway. She couldn't believe the differences in approach. Her workload is tiny compared to what it is here. When she sees a patient she has 30 minutes and the onus is on wraparound care without just giving them a pill and telling them to go away.

I can just WhatsApp my doctor to book an appointment, usually on the same day. I can also email for non-urgent medical questions and get a reply within a few days.

 

[Grendel]

I’ve only been to A&E once recently but I couldn’t believe how lax it was. Anyone could just turn up and sit there for however long they wanted. Two receptionists, and the rest of the doctors and nurses just hidden away. Was there for 9 hours.

a bloke was there waiting all day for pain killers for an infected tooth

I went once. Was told a 13 hour wait. To be fair they offered an appointed time the next day which was better but some people were there just dossing. One had a bag full of mobile phones!

 

[chiefdave]

I’ve only been to A&E once recently but I couldn’t believe how lax it was. Anyone could just turn up and sit there for however long they wanted. Two receptionists, and the rest of the doctors and nurses just hidden away. Was there for 9 hours.

a bloke was there waiting all day for pain killers for an infected tooth

When I was sat on the other side for 3 days because they didn’t really want to admit me to hospital but it also wasn’t safe to send me home it was plain to see the absolute chaos for being hugely under resourced for what they were being expected to do.

Before every shift change an admin staff member would be going round pleading with people to work a double shift as they couldn’t cope with the number of people coming in.

Part of the problem is they can’t just turn people away if they’re there for the ‘wrong’ reason. That’s been done in the past and hasn’t worked, people have died as a result, so now there’s rules in place to prevent that.

 

[Grendel]

I can just WhatsApp my doctor to book an appointment, usually on the same day. I can also email for non-urgent medical questions and get a reply within a few days.

So can I if I want to unless I want a specific doctor. I’m sure some on here live in another country to me.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

So can I if I want to unless I want a specific doctor. I’m sure some on here live in another country to me.

Yes same. I can get an appointment same day, bare minimum is over the phone. Only issue i've ever had was when going into hospital.

My GP has my number too.

I'm amazed how much the efficiency varies from surgery to surgery.

 

[Grendel]

Part of me wonders if the older generation like going to the doctors as its some sort of social contact.

People of all ages seem to go for stupid reasons. Also no shows are an issue.

Appointments should be charged and 3 no shows and struck off the register

 

[Ccfcisparks]

People of all ages seem to go for stupid reasons. Also no shows are an issue.

Appointments should be charged and 3 no shows and struck off the register

At a bare minimum there should be a cost aspect to not attending.

If someone has to enter their card details before attending it may make them think whether its worth an appointment at all.

 

[Nick]

I’ve only been to A&E once recently but I couldn’t believe how lax it was. Anyone could just turn up and sit there for however long they wanted. Two receptionists, and the rest of the doctors and nurses just hidden away. Was there for 9 hours.

a bloke was there waiting all day for pain killers for an infected tooth

Yeah there are always piss takers

 

[Nick]

Part of me wonders if the older generation like going to the doctors as its some sort of social contact.

I've been and waited about 15 minutes for an old woman to come out. She was telling everybody who would listen about a bruise on her hand. She was in with the doctor for ages about it.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

I've been and waited about 15 minutes for an old woman to come out. She was telling everybody who would listen about a bruise on her hand. She was in with the doctor for ages about it.

Yep exactly my experience of recent GP appointments.

I just want to get in, get out and not be hanging around there all day

 

[Sick Boy]

So can I if I want to unless I want a specific doctor. I’m sure some on here live in another country to me.

Yeah it was the same for me when I last lived there. I could just turn up at 8am and sit and wait.

 

[Nick]

So can I if I want to unless I want a specific doctor. I’m sure some on here live in another country to me.

I can't, you have to join a phone queue at 8.

It usually takes about 40 minutes to get through to reception. Then if you want a call they can't tell you when it will be.

 

[torchomatic]

For fuck's sake. God help us.

 

[chiefdave]

Yes same. I can get an appointment same day, bare minimum is over the phone. Only issue i've ever had was when going into hospital.

My GP has my number too.

I'm amazed how much the efficiency varies from surgery to surgery.

I have to do the 8am ring. I might get an appointment at my surgery, I might get an appointment at another surgery run by the same group on the other side of the city, I might get a phone appointment or I might get told there’s no more appointments for the day and to try again tomorrow.

With my ongoing heath issues I need routine follow up appointments, since Covid you can’t even book those in advance, you have to call on the day at 8am. Pre Covid I used to be able to book appointments online for day, weeks or even months in advance. That’s been removed.

Did make me laugh when the government announced last week that part of their plan to fix the NHS is to make it possible to book appointments through thr NHS app ‘in the next 10 years’, you can do that now if your GP allows it.