Delusion? (1 Viewer)

Senior Vick from Alicante

Well-Known Member
The longer they hang around the more the threat of liquidation gets bigger for me, they can use it to offset profits in their other funds. We have and all ways will be the collateral damage Italia, the thing for me though is how much is real debt and how much is debt that has been saddled on us through accounting to enable the owners to draw down any money the club actual makes?
 

albatross

Well-Known Member
Vick, thats true, but as part of that Process the Golden Share will be sold with the club so I think it will get close but that is the only thing of value that have left. And whilst in essence it is in the Gift of the football league to grant or withdraw the share I don't think they will let CCFC die if there is a chance with new owners.
 

dongonzalos

Well-Known Member
That is the golden question however the answer almost certainly is not by renting from Wasps with no access to the money they generate on a matchday.

Anyone who was not trying to angle to get 50 million back and just was looking for the best solution for the club, would see a long term sensible low rent with as much access to revenues. As the only solution.
 

dongonzalos

Well-Known Member
Which is annoying as it is full circle, back to the solution that should have been taken a few years ago when the rent deal was shook on.
Prior to SISU thinking actually lets distress ACL further.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Anyone who was not trying to angle to get 50 million back and just was looking for the best solution for the club, would see a long term sensible low rent with as much access to revenues. As the only solution.

If that meant just about paying the investors their interest ( anything more than they would get at a bank would be at least not be a loss ), we would drift along in the lower reaches for the foreseeable future - taking no risks and not investing any more money. That would be ok for the investors in the medium term in comparison to how it was when Dulux asked Joy for a few million more of investors money. Has nothing to do with what fans would like to happen though.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Think there is some confusion as to what sits where in financial statements

The costs of acquiring and building the Ricoh will sit as an asset on the balance sheet of the freeholder - CCC - subject to any revaluation since 2005. On the other side of that would be the liability for amounts that are still owed in respect of financing the acquisition and build costs - as over half was financed from the sale to Tescos £67m+, then £21m was cleared by the lease premium paid by ACL and a chunk else received in grants - there isn't a lot still outstanding. This way of financing the build is the kind of thing that SISU are apparently looking at to finance the new stadium.

What we also had were the shares in ACL split equally in to two companies one owned by CCC the other by AEHC. The charity spent 6.5m to acquire the 1.76m shares of £1 each and got back 2.77m. According to the build report in 2006 CCC had an equity investment of £10m and apparently they sold that for 2.77m also. Neither AEHC (through Football Investors Ltd) nor CCC (through Coventry North Regeneration ltd) now have an interest in ACL but both have incurred large investment losses. So no entries now on either CCC or AEHC balance sheets

What SISU allude to is that they will find a site that is bigger than they need and will sell off either freehold or long lease interests of parts in order to fund the build costs of the stadium and the attached training/academy facilities. In addition if the training is at that site then you would expect Ryton to be sold too. Same principle as for the Ricoh really. Trouble is the site really - in Coventry it could be subject to CCC planning regulations and needs (it has nothing to do with vindictiveness which would be easy to challenge) it has to make sense in the long term development plans for the City. Or just outside Coventry which could be affected by Green Belt considerations and the finance available to do the necessary infra structure. Both potentials will be affected by the need for commercial or domestic development at the site (no demand no interest and therefore no value), in addition the proposal for a new stadium will probably need Secretary of State approval. The theory goes for the balance sheet of CCFC is that the asset (the built stadium/training complex) will be far greater than the ongoing finance liabilities because other 3rd parties will effectively have paid for it. Theory is fine in practice not sure i see it happening

From what I understand certain CCFC connections have been saying because of the state of the Ricoh pitch a return to Sixfields has been muted. Not sure that the FL would allow it - "we want to move again because our pitch is too muddy" is not going to be a valid reason. However the commitment by Wasps to relay the pitch has some implications for building the SISU stadium. If the proposal has to go to the Secretary of State then he will have to look at need to the City of Coventry and if there is already a major stadium where both can play with a decent pitch will a stadium rank higher than other planning needs?

Do SISU have something to sell. Well yes they have a football club to sell. What the problem is - is at what price. I agree no one will come in and take on £50m debts of SBS&L group. But they dont have to CCFC sits in Otium and that can be sold separately and any inter company debts between Otium and SBS&L negotiated down or even out. That leaves ARVO who have revolving finance loans and other debts totalling at least £13m (May 2013) which are secured by charges over all the assets. It would be able to negotiate settlement if there were a will on both sides to do so. If say CCFC could get a long term lease with income access of some sort from ACL/Wasps that might add some worth - say 125 years (Wasps can do that because they have 250 years). Depends on the will, the price, the access to income but it could be done. There are options for a sale.

Would Wasps be interested at this point. Highly unlikely. They are stepping in to the unknown themselves on the back of poor financials. The risk attached to CCFC and the working capital that would be required I would think would not be a good option right now. However facilitating a new buyer of CCFC or even sticking with the present owners that's possible (see above)

Not sure any of us know what Wasps are budgeting for in terms of crowds I find it hard to believe it would be 20k or 25k as has been mentioned. Given the move away, the obvious mood of some against, the fact that one local derby (Northampton) already played at Adams Park etc then I would expect anybody looking at such proposals would say how? Wasps have had to raise finance so the projections will have been scrutinised. Another point is that the turnover per head of Wasps in 2013 was approx £57 (CCFC in 2013 was £20) do they actually need 20k attendance to break even? On those figures that would give them turnover approaching £18m! Unlikely. In addition i would think there is a premium on the sponsorship and advertising deals they can get now compared to Adams Park not to mention full access to things like Car park, F&B income that they didnt get at Wycombe plus the ability to do far more match day hospitality (we all know the price of that at CCFC now think Premiership). I have a feeling that the breakeven figures for crowds is much lower that 20k.

Bottom line is keep an open mind. CCFC could build a stadium, SISU could sell if they chose to, Wasps are not guaranteed to fail
 
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MichaelCCFC

New Member
247 replies to the OP - lots of opinions, lots of assertion, lots of conjecture but I'm not sure there's been even one piece of factual information offered!

If we focus on what we know (as in the OP) rather than opinion, conjecture, assertion etc, there is no reason for sisu to leave but we will not progress under them; talking about a new stadium is getting very close to being delusional when 18 months after TF's promise of a new stadium within 3 years there is no proof whatsoever that a single concrete step has been made; wasps will need a lot more than the ccfc rent to cover their £3m annual losses and create the profits they need to become a truly top franchise so ccfc is not in any way key to wasps business plan. Pretty simple but also pretty bleak - facts to support a more positive outlook remain welcome
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
The longer they hang around the more the threat of liquidation gets bigger for me, they can use it to offset profits in their other funds. We have and all ways will be the collateral damage Italia, the thing for me though is how much is real debt and how much is debt that has been saddled on us through accounting to enable the owners to draw down any money the club actual makes?

That's a good point.
You would need a company accountant to explain whats going on.
I can see Sisu/Otium are drawing out money as management/loan fees and that debt is accruing in the club.
I can't understand how we went into administration yet on exiting we still have the debt.
I thought the debt was cleared in an administration or liquidation.
It seems Ltd was liquidated but everything mysteriously moved to the current business.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Opinion and conjecture is all any of us have

No proof of the Stadium certainly which was first muted by the club to ACL in December 2012 btw. No proof it isnt happening either though - just no one can find it

Why the focus on £3m losses as disclosed in the June 2013 accounts of Wasps? How is that relevant to the new set up? For starters the accounts included £600k in rent. There was no access to other incomes at Adams Park. The club has been restructured since then - Robinson bought in to Wasps April 2013 I believe. They have got new sponsorship deals, wage costs (the major cost) will not have greatly increased because of the salary cap. Fixing on 2013 and trying to impose that on a totally different situation going forward without looking behind those 2013 figures is misleading.

Are CCFC key to Wasps success at the Ricoh. I would not have thought so. Why would anyone base their projections on a high risk, badly performing, declining, under supported football team with owners that have repeatedly shown their intransigence. You base it on things you can control not something totally out of your control
 

dongonzalos

Well-Known Member
If that meant just about paying the investors their interest ( anything more than they would get at a bank would be at least not be a loss ), we would drift along in the lower reaches for the foreseeable future - taking no risks and not investing any more money. That would be ok for the investors in the medium term in comparison to how it was when Dulux asked Joy for a few million more of investors money. Has nothing to do with what fans would like to happen though.

No unfortunately I mean securing the long term future of the football club ( if that was your only concern) its the most sensible thing to do.
However securing what best for the football club is not necessarily what is best for SISU and it certainly won't get them a large chunk of their 50 million so they probably won't do it.
 

dongonzalos

Well-Known Member
247 replies to the OP - lots of opinions, lots of assertion, lots of conjecture but I'm not sure there's been even one piece of factual information offered!

If we focus on what we know (as in the OP) rather than opinion, conjecture, assertion etc, there is no reason for sisu to leave but we will not progress under them; talking about a new stadium is getting very close to being delusional when 18 months after TF's promise of a new stadium within 3 years there is no proof whatsoever that a single concrete step has been made; wasps will need a lot more than the ccfc rent to cover their £3m annual losses and create the profits they need to become a truly top franchise so ccfc is not in any way key to wasps business plan. Pretty simple but also pretty bleak - facts to support a more positive outlook remain welcome

I think it maybe full of opinion and conjecture about lots of topics because I and think possibility quite a few others may not be sure. What are you actually saying and/or asking?

What opinion would you actually like us to comment on.
What facts would you like. If its ones from the future I will give it my best shit but the tardis is low on fuel today :)
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
247 replies to the OP - lots of opinions, lots of assertion, lots of conjecture but I'm not sure there's been even one piece of factual information offered!

If we focus on what we know (as in the OP) rather than opinion, conjecture, assertion etc, there is no reason for sisu to leave but we will not progress under them; talking about a new stadium is getting very close to being delusional when 18 months after TF's promise of a new stadium within 3 years there is no proof whatsoever that a single concrete step has been made; wasps will need a lot more than the ccfc rent to cover their £3m annual losses and create the profits they need to become a truly top franchise so ccfc is not in any way key to wasps business plan. Pretty simple but also pretty bleak - facts to support a more positive outlook remain welcome

You arte the one talking about a future 3m loss. That is not a fact. A fact is that Wasps have saved their rent costs and have access to F&B and have a better sponsorship deal. Fact is they are sitting better than they were.

You cannot say that we will not progress under SISU as a fact. We won't, but that is not a fact, it is an opinion - shared by most of us. You have your opinions and others have theirs - all based upon facts that we know from the history, but nonetheless there are no facts in the furure. Facts lie in the history and not in the future in this case ( unless you count things which have been agreed to take place - but they are not 100% until it actually happens e.g. the P.i.t.S. Stadium, wasps stay for 250 years).

So what do you suggest, other than opinion, conjecture, assertion etc. if there are no provable futuristic facts - in this ongoing story?
 

Senior Vick from Alicante

Well-Known Member
Its a sad fact MCCFC that everything that is spoken about the club and its owners is speculation and assertion. This is down to the secretive and often divisive way they carry out their business, if they were open and honest then fans would not speculate on future possibilities that are coloured by the way they have conducted themselves in the past. The one thing I can say that is not any of these is that we are going no where fast while these Muppets remain the custodians of our club. The only concrete proof of anything out their is that Wasps are now in a far better position by acquiring ACL then they were, we have to engage with them if we are ever to move forward.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
Some excellent posts there OSB, although I would throw caution regard the average price per head as they includes a lot of money that's not connected to customers (I.e. The c£3.5m they get for being in the premiership, tv rights, etc) just like the c£5m more we would get in the championship. Without downloading their accounts, it's difficult to estimate the actual cash terms per head, we know that ours is a oh £10.80 per head, based on information on ticket revenues. Wasps are also selling tickets at the Ricoh considerably cheaper than what's available at Adams park, plus you've got the compass deal which means they'd only be getting 7.5% of f&b money initially.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 
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MichaelCCFC

New Member
The absolutely basic point is there's people on here and elsewhere on social media saying things like a new stadium will be built, wasps will buy ccfc, wasps will benefit us or disagree that sisu need to go before we can make progress; so the OP was asking if anyone can provide any facts to back up these points or else is it all just hope, wishful thinking or (the new stadium being the best example) getting towards delusion?
 
J

Jack Griffin

Guest
Think there is some confusion as to what sits where in financial statements

The costs of acquiring and building the Ricoh will sit as an asset on the balance sheet of the freeholder - CCC - subject to any revaluation since 2005. On the other side of that would be the liability for amounts that are still owed in respect of financing the acquisition and build costs - as over half was financed from the sale to Tescos £67m+, then £21m was cleared by the lease premium paid by ACL and a chunk else received in grants - there isn't a lot still outstanding. This way of financing the build is the kind of thing that SISU are apparently looking at to finance the new stadium.

What we also had were the shares in ACL split equally in to two companies one owned by CCC the other by AEHC. The charity spent 6.5m to acquire the 1.76m shares of £1 each and got back 2.77m. According to the build report in 2006 CCC had an equity investment of £10m and apparently they sold that for 2.77m also. Neither AEHC (through Football Investors Ltd) nor CCC (through Coventry North Regeneration ltd) now have an interest in ACL but both have incurred large investment losses. So no entries now on either CCC or AEHC balance sheets

What SISU allude to is that they will find a site that is bigger than they need and will sell off either freehold or long lease interests of parts in order to fund the build costs of the stadium and the attached training/academy facilities. In addition if the training is at that site then you would expect Ryton to be sold too. Same principle as for the Ricoh really. Trouble is the site really - in Coventry it could be subject to CCC planning regulations and needs (it has nothing to do with vindictiveness which would be easy to challenge) it has to make sense in the long term development plans for the City. Or just outside Coventry which could be affected by Green Belt considerations and the finance available to do the necessary infra structure. Both potentials will be affected by the need for commercial or domestic development at the site (no demand no interest and therefore no value), in addition the proposal for a new stadium will probably need Secretary of State approval. The theory goes for the balance sheet of CCFC is that the asset (the built stadium/training complex) will be far greater than the ongoing finance liabilities because other 3rd parties will effectively have paid for it. Theory is fine in practice not sure i see it happening

From what I understand certain CCFC connections have been saying because of the state of the Ricoh pitch a return to Sixfields has been muted. Not sure that the FL would allow it - "we want to move again because our pitch is too muddy" is not going to be a valid reason. However the commitment by Wasps to relay the pitch has some implications for building the SISU stadium. If the proposal has to go to the Secretary of State then he will have to look at need to the City of Coventry and if there is already a major stadium where both can play with a decent pitch will a stadium rank higher than other planning needs?

Do SISU have something to sell. Well yes they have a football club to sell. What the problem is - is at what price. I agree no one will come in and take on £50m debts of SBS&L group. But they dont have to CCFC sits in Otium and that can be sold separately and any inter company debts between Otium and SBS&L negotiated down or even out. That leaves ARVO who have revolving finance loans and other debts totalling at least £13m (May 2013) which are secured by charges over all the assets. It would be able to negotiate settlement if there were a will on both sides to do so. If say CCFC could get a long term lease with income access of some sort from ACL/Wasps that might add some worth - say 125 years (Wasps can do that because they have 250 years). Depends on the will, the price, the access to income but it could be done. There are options for a sale.

Would Wasps be interested at this point. Highly unlikely. They are stepping in to the unknown themselves on the back of poor financials. The risk attached to CCFC and the working capital that would be required I would think would not be a good option right now. However facilitating a new buyer of CCFC or even sticking with the present owners that's possible (see above)

Not sure any of us know what Wasps are budgeting for in terms of crowds I find it hard to believe it would be 20k or 25k as has been mentioned. Given the move away, the obvious mood of some against, the fact that one local derby (Northampton) already played at Adams Park etc then I would expect anybody looking at such proposals would say how? Wasps have had to raise finance so the projections will have been scrutinised. Another point is that the turnover per head of Wasps in 2013 was approx £57 (CCFC in 2013 was £20) do they actually need 20k attendance to break even? On those figures that would give them turnover approaching £18m! Unlikely. In addition i would think there is a premium on the sponsorship and advertising deals they can get now compared to Adams Park not to mention full access to things like Car park, F&B income that they didnt get at Wycombe plus the ability to do far more match day hospitality (we all know the price of that at CCFC now think Premiership). I have a feeling that the breakeven figures for crowds is much lower that 20k.

Bottom line is keep an open mind. CCFC could build a stadium, SISU could sell if they chose to, Wasps are not guaranteed to fail

The 2 sentences I've marked are quite important..

1) CCFC is now being run as leverage for a property deal, not as a football club, that is secondary or even tertiary!
2) The size of the ARVO loan in my view is a good guide to the price, I don't think any other investors own more than 5% of the club any more.
.... If that could be paid off SISU/ARVO might sell up and go, otherwise they will want to take 10% pa interest out every year, or £1.3M

Finally as Wasps averaged 14K crowds last season, I would expect them to do that again at least for the remainder of this season (provided they're still in the same compys as last season, don't know how Rugby is structured & not interested).
 
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NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
In fact you can work it out here.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/fixtures.php?includeref=9229&season=2013-2014

Average vastly, vastly below 14k

Wasps have been hardest hit, with the average crowd at Adams Park tumbling from 8,542 in 2009-10 to 5,759 this season, a 32.58 per cent reduction.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...t-best-players-and-bigger-crowds-9223856.html

One could say the savage decline shows the perils of moving somewhere, once the novelty value wears off...
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
The 2 sentences I've marked are quite important..

1) CCFC is now being run as leverage for a property deal, not as a football club, that is secondary or even tertiary!
2) The size of the ARVO loan in my view is a good guide to the price, I don't think any other investors own more than 5% of the club any more.
.... If that could be paid off SISU/ARVO might sell up and go, otherwise they will want to take 10% pa interest out every year, or £1.3M

Finally as Wasps averaged 14K crowds last season, I would expect them to do that again at least for the remainder of this season (provided they're still in the same compys as last season, don't know how Rugby is structured & not interested).

Nice try council jack - they average below 6,000
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
Adams park holds 10.5k


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 
J

Jack Griffin

Guest
Wasps averages are skewed by the season opener played at Twickenham. The average was actually far below this.

I see, a bit like City getting 27K when they returned, the average over all other matches will be a lot less.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
I see, a bit like City getting 27K when they returned, the average over all other matches will be a lot less.

No its nothing like that. The Twickenham game is sold out with fans who support any team - its a jamboree event. It would be like us getting a cup final at Wembley and counting that in the average.
 

wingy

Well-Known Member
No its nothing like that. The Twickenham game is sold out with fans who support any team - its a jamboree event. It would be like us getting a cup final at Wembley and counting that in the average.

They may be hoping to have several jamborees a season now with those type of fans .:thinking about:
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
No its nothing like that. The Twickenham game is sold out with fans who support any team - its a jamboree event. It would be like us getting a cup final at Wembley and counting that in the average.

Yep, they're (aviva premiership) are selling tickets on Groupon for the end of season final.

The Aviva Premiership Rugby Final 2015: at Twickenham Stadium http://bit.ly/1v4s5XL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 

SkyBlue_Bear83

Well-Known Member
The 2 sentences I've marked are quite important..

1) CCFC is now being run as leverage for a property deal, not as a football club, that is secondary or even tertiary!
2) The size of the ARVO loan in my view is a good guide to the price, I don't think any other investors own more than 5% of the club any more.
.... If that could be paid off SISU/ARVO might sell up and go, otherwise they will want to take 10% pa interest out every year, or £1.3M

Finally as Wasps averaged 14K crowds last season, I would expect them to do that again at least for the remainder of this season (provided they're still in the same compys as last season, don't know how Rugby is structured & not interested).

Wasps average 14k but Adams Park only holds 10.5k :thinking about: seems legit
 

RFC

Well-Known Member
Will never ever go to the Ricoh to watch Rugby and wish the Sky Blues were ........

Not @ Ricoh because CCC would not have been able to do what they've done with WASPS.

Check out the FACTS.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
Would it be too big in the Premier League?
.... because thats where I want to be. I have not settled at this level like our management and a few of our fans.

if that's where you want to be, and have not settle for this level, why are you so insistent we commit to a ong rental deal at the ricoh with limited/no access to revenues that will almost certainly place a glass ceiling well and truly above us preventing us from getting to the PL and making us a league one-championship yo yo club at best?

we will not get back to the PL under sisu and we certainly wont get back to the PL renting matchday only from Wasps
 

spider_ricoh

New Member
if that's where you want to be, and have not settle for this level, why are you so insistent we commit to a ong rental deal at the ricoh with limited/no access to revenues that will almost certainly place a glass ceiling well and truly above us preventing us from getting to the PL and making us a league one-championship yo yo club at best?

we will not get back to the PL under sisu and we certainly wont get back to the PL renting matchday only from Wasps

I don't agree with any of that totally baseless statement except the part highlighted in bold
 

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