Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (20 Viewers)

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
Can someone answer me why we get told we are following the sciences yet we are not following what the South African scientist who discovered Omicron says, Same with WHO and EMA . This is SA's current case fertility rate

The thread you linked gives the answer in part:

The 'restrictions' (in reality, nothing really) are to slow the spread. It turns out to be highly effective at spreading, which is what they're concerned about, in that even if it is indeed milder, if it takes over incredibly quickly, then that in itself could overwhelm the health service.

As such, they're also fast-tracking the booster programme, so as much protection as possible is there, so in an ideal world they don't have to introduce any noticable restrictions, as it can then spread with limited consequence. That last part, we wait to find out...

Much of it is pre-emptive. I'm not going to criticise them for that, because had they been more proactive *last* Christmas, we may well not have had such a long lockdown after it.

Nick · Dec 13, 2021

ajsccfc said:
I'm pinning all my hopes on the South African lads being correct about it, we're still obviously in the wait and see stage but there's been no confirmed horror that was already there by now with the Delta one tearing its way through India

It's already tearing through the UK though and no doubt it will ramp up.

jordan210 · Dec 13, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
The thread you linked gives the answer in part:

The 'restrictions' (in reality, nothing really) are to slow the spread. It turns out to be highly effective at spreading, which is what they're concerned about, in that even if it is indeed milder, if it takes over incredibly quickly, then that in itself could overwhelm the health service.

As such, they're also fast-tracking the booster programme, so as much protection as possible is there, so in an ideal world they don't have to introduce any noticable restrictions, as it can then spread with limited consequence. That last part, we wait to find out...

So lots of Coulds and maybes to maybe save the NHS who in turn isn't saving anyone as Javid just cancelled anything non urgent.

South Africa have a 30% vaccine rate and appear to be doing better than us without a massive booster program or even vaccine program.

It appears the only winner hear is Pfizer's share holders.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Dec 13, 2021

...and just to be clear.....I don't follow the bloke whos feed this is off.....I'm not even on twitter.....I just watched it from scrolling down from the graph @jordan210 posted.....

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
So lots of Coulds and maybes to save the NHS who in turn isn't saving anyone as Javid just cancelled anything non urgent.

South Africa have a 30% vaccine rate and appear to be doing better then us.

Of couse it's coulds, but it's cost-benefit - cause issues now in the NHS under a theory of short term pain for long-term gain. Now, websites crashing and tests running out suggests that, not for the first time, our Prime Minister over-promises, and that could well tip the balance too far the other way, potentially.

But that's the reasoning. Basically he's trying anything he can to try and avoid serious restrictions, and head off at the pass. Whether that's right or not, we wait and see.

ajsccfc · Dec 13, 2021

Nick said:
It's already tearing through the UK though and no doubt it will ramp up.

Infections absolutely, but Delta was killing people rapidly whereas keeping my fingers crossed here

jordan210 · Dec 13, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
Of couse it's coulds, but it's cost-benefit - cause issues now in the NHS under a theory of short term pain for long-term gain. Now, websites crashing and tests running out suggests that, not for the first time, our Prime Minister over-promises, and that could well tip the balance too far the other way, potentially.

But that's the reasoning. Basically he's trying anything he can to try and avoid serious restrictions, and head off at the pass. Whether that succeeds or not, we wait and see.

I doubt its cost benefitted. As the gov still have not shows any of the originals cost benefit from the first lock down. The NHS is under the same pressure it always is at winter. yet the gov/NHS bosses have cut the number of beds.

We appear the only country who is panicking over omicron. Conveniently just before a vote to bring in tougher restrictions.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 13, 2021

ajsccfc said:
Infections absolutely, but Delta was killing people rapidly whereas keeping my fingers crossed here

It's worth noting that even if you've only had your two jabs, even if it's AZ, and even if that protection against symptomatic illness has dived, then there's still a certain protection against serious illness, anyway.

So, the logic of add some fake immunity into people through vaccines, is undoubtedly having an effect medium-term as well as short-term, we'll definitely reach a point where they end up in moderate harmony.

duffer · Dec 13, 2021

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It is the same origins that the ´lockdown lovers´ tagline comes from. You will notice that in wider society and on here, there are some people that will just try and be as negative as possible when it comes to Covid. They sit on the side of caution whilst trying to make other people feel bad for trying to get on with their lives, even if they are still following the rules. So yes, even if they think Boris is a lying twat, when it comes to the pandemic, some things will just be accepted without question.

Sure, there are real anti-vaxxers, but the majority of people are pretty normal. Some of them are getting put in with the former because of people who want to be like them and fear the virus on an extremely unhealthy level. There might be reasons for it such as personal circumstances, but it is getting pretty tiring when you want to discuss the facts and it is difficult to do so without it becoming a shit show.

I posted a link showing how little Covid kills younger people, and everyone who usually looks at the negatives completely skirted it apart from one person who then said ´yeah but what about hospitalisations´. That is not a healthy mindset.

Just on this, I tend to trust the scientists rather than Boris.

To me, following the rules means getting vaccinated and wearing a mask where needed unless there's a medical reason why you cannot do so.

The risks of dying from Covid if you are young are low, of getting hospitalised, slightly higher, of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine, miniscule.

However, small proportions in very large numbers will still result in an impact. And, of course, young people can still transmit the disease.

What is literally unhealthy is disregarding things like transmission rates and hospitalisations. Ignoring the impact of Covid on the NHS puts everyone's health at risk, young and old.

I'm all for facts too, which bit of this would you say is wrong?

Nick · Dec 13, 2021

ajsccfc said:
Infections absolutely, but Delta was killing people rapidly whereas keeping my fingers crossed here

Sorry, was being sarcastic about the spin today.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
Conveniently just before a vote to bring in tougher restrictions.

See, the pattern suggests that the conspiracy is actually to make you think it's just a distraction, and loosen the grip of restrictions.

When they wanted to relax them first time out, Cummings was outed.

When Hancock was the block on restrictions being removed in entirety, he was outed.

Now Johnson wants to reintroduce some restrictions, and what happens...?

The conspiracy strongly leans moretowards someone leaking, who doesn't actually want restrictions in place.

jordan210 · Dec 13, 2021

duffer said:
Just on this, I tend to trust the scientists rather than Boris.

To me, following the rules means getting vaccinated and wearing a mask where needed unless there's a medical reason why you cannot do so.

The risks of dying from Covid if you are young are low, of getting hospitalised, slightly higher, of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine, miniscule.

However, small proportions in very large numbers will still result in an impact. And, of course, young people can still transmit the disease.

What is literally unhealthy is disregarding things like transmission rates and hospitalisations. Ignoring the impact of Covid on the NHS puts everyone's health at risk, young and old.

I'm all for facts too, which bit of this would you say is wrong?

What scientists do you trust. Scientists with different opinions have been shut down and side lined. Trust in Gov/sage must be at an all time low ?

For example look at how the Indie sage group tried to sideline Chise on twitter, Who is a scientist behind one of the vaccines.

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 13, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
It works the other way of course. A family friend got admitted 12 weeks ago because of Covid. Complications meant they got other ailments after, and it's touch and go whether they survive. If they don't... it's more than 28 days since their positive Covid test. So either way, survive or no, they're a non-death from Covid.

At the end of the day, you need a measuring tool. We've all said the excess deaths is the simplest to pick, and measures taken dragged that down somewhat... which is nice.

Again another well made argument. Completely agree

chiefdave · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
Can someone answer me why we get told we are following the sciences yet we are not following what the South African scientist who discovered Omicron says, Same with WHO and EMA . This is SA's current case fertility rate

That's a Times journalist, don't think he discovered Omicron. But he answers the question in his follow up tweets, there are potential issues around the number of tests being carried out. The figures we really need are hospitalisations and deaths and there is a lag in obtaining those so caution is needed in the interim. There will be an even bigger lag in getting data that is specific to the UK.

But the simple answer is that if it is milder but more transmissible you have the potential for the overall number of hospitalisations to increase. And if we reach a point where the NHS doesn't have capacity to treat people then the outcome of those hospitalisations will not be good.

Again part of the issue here is our stating point. The NHS is in crisis every winter without covid. There is limited capacity for anything else.

ajsccfc · Dec 13, 2021

Nick said:
Sorry, was being sarcastic about the spin today.

Ah. I've been missing things like that more regularly since the 5G chip in my bloodstream went haywire

jordan210 · Dec 13, 2021

.

chiefdave said:
That's a Times journalist, don't think he discovered Omicron. But he answers the question in his follow up tweets, there are potential issues around the number of tests being carried out. The figures we really need are hospitalisations and deaths and there is a lag in obtaining those so caution is needed in the interim. There will be an even bigger lag in getting data that is specific to the UK.

But the simple answer is that if it is milder but more transmissible you have the potential for the overall number of hospitalisations to increase. And if we reach a point where the NHS doesn't have capacity to treat people then the outcome of those hospitalisations will not be good.

We know covid doesn't realy effect the younger generation so jabbing and boosting an 18-30's isn't going to help this. It's a massive waste of NHS time and money. That could be spend on capacity.

duffer · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
What scientists do you trust. Scientists with different opinions have been shut down and side lined. Trust in Gov/sage must be at an all time low ?

Which scientists have been shut down?

Specifically, which scientific opinion is it that you think has been closed out. Can you point to it?

It's one thing to lose trust in the government, who wouldn't, but are you really saying there's a conspiracy of scientists somewhere shutting down alternative views?

That's not generally how science works.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
.

We know covid doesn't realy effect the younger generation so jabbing and boosting an 18-30's isn't going to help this. It's a massive waste of NHS time and money. That could be spend on capacity.

Potentially yes, although what I don't understand wrt the 70-75% non-symptomatic after a booster is whether that also reduces the ability to pass on the infection. One would assume it does, and again it's along the lines of trying to slow the spread of it.

And whilst capacity is indeed an excellent point, then it's worth noting that capacity takes years to come into effect, as you have to build the buildings and train the doctors and nurses.

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 13, 2021

fatso said:
That's completely untrue.
But you keep sucking that BS up flower.

I’ve read through the clinical data and peer reviewed research. Have you? Or just got someone with MD after their name to tell you what to say?

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 13, 2021

Bonkers, btw!

‘Unbelievably selfish’ man receives Covid vaccine nine times in one day

People who did not want to get vaccine ‘took advantage’ of man’s financial situation by paying him to have their jab

www.independent.co.uk

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Dec 13, 2021

duffer said:
Just on this, I tend to trust the scientists rather than Boris.

To me, following the rules means getting vaccinated and wearing a mask where needed unless there's a medical reason why you cannot do so.

The risks of dying from Covid if you are young are low, of getting hospitalised, slightly higher, of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine, miniscule.

However, small proportions in very large numbers will still result in an impact. And, of course, young people can still transmit the disease.

What is literally unhealthy is disregarding things like transmission rates and hospitalisations. Ignoring the impact of Covid on the NHS puts everyone's health at risk, young and old.

I'm all for facts too, which bit of this would you say is wrong?

I don´t generally disagree with anything you have said. It is more about how much we let the virus take over our lives for the next few years. It is always going to be here, and being able to discuss the very difficult conversation about what level of acceptance we can have towards it in society is important.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 13, 2021

Meanwhile, here's a public service announcement.

jordan210 · Dec 13, 2021

duffer said:
Which scientists have been shut down?

Specifically, which scientific opinion is it that you think has been closed out. Can you point to it?

It's one thing to lose trust in the government, who wouldn't, but are you really saying there's a conspiracy of scientists somewhere shutting down alternative views?

That's not generally how science works.

Just take a look on twitter at the amount of "celebrity scientists" from Indie sage who try and disprove others and block them when called out.

I will try and find the thread on @sailorrooscout who got "attacked by others" for not having a doctorate as a reason not to listen to her

duffer · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
.

We know covid doesn't realy effect the younger generation so jabbing and boosting an 18-30's isn't going to help this. It's a massive waste of NHS time and money. That could be spend on capacity.

Politely, that's not a very well informed perspective. Might be worth having a read of this.

Covid-19 vaccine FAQs for younger adults | North East London Health & Care Partnership

We are the London boroughs, NHS trusts and clinical commissioning groups that work together to plan and run care and health services in east London for a population of over two million people.

www.eastlondonhcp.nhs.uk

Or maybe a watch of this...

COVID-19 vaccines & younger adults | British Society for Immunology

www.immunology.org

There are plenty of good reasons to vaccinate young people (transmission, hospitalisations, long Covid etc. etc.).

Genuinely, do you think medical professionals and scientists are encouraging everyone to get vaccinated for some ulterior motive?

Nick · Dec 13, 2021

duffer said:
Genuinely, do you think medical professionals and scientists are encouraging everyone to get vaccinated for some ulterior motive?

Again, if it was suggested a couple of years back that MPs and senior figures would have their fingers in the PPE pie it would have been thrown away as conspiracy.

duffer · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
Just take a look on twitter at the amount of "celebrity scientists" from Indie sage who try and disprove others and block them when called out.

Apologies, I don't use Twitter for science. You shouldn't either. Or Facebook, or that fat bloke down the pub.

What scientific opinion has been shut down by other scientists, can you give an example perhaps?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Dec 13, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
Bonkers, btw!

‘Unbelievably selfish’ man receives Covid vaccine nine times in one day

People who did not want to get vaccine ‘took advantage’ of man’s financial situation by paying him to have their jab

www.independent.co.uk

The good thing is he is now fully boosted for the next month.

duffer · Dec 13, 2021

Nick said:
Again, if it was suggested a couple of years back that MPs and senior figures would have their fingers in the PPE pie it would have been thrown away as conspiracy.

So just to clarify, you think that the government and scientists are advocating mask use to maximise their personal profit?

Skybluefaz · Dec 13, 2021

Nick said:
Again, if it was suggested a couple of years back that MPs and senior figures would have their fingers in the PPE pie it would have been thrown away as conspiracy.

This is ridiculous nonsense. People have always had low opinions of MPs over expense scandals cash for questions etc.

jordan210 · Dec 13, 2021

duffer said:
Apologies, I don't use Twitter for science. You shouldn't either. Or Facebook, or that fat bloke down the pub.

What scientific opinion has been shut down by other scientists, can you give an example perhaps?

For example Dr Zoë Hyde tried to shut down Chise for not having a doctorate. Some of the thread has been deleted.

Chise works for moderna for reference

duffer · Dec 13, 2021

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I don´t generally disagree with anything you have said. It is more about how much we let the virus take over our lives for the next few years. It is always going to be here, and being able to discuss the very difficult conversation about what level of acceptance we can have towards it in society is important.

No dispute from me here. There's definitely a grown up conversation to be had, but first we've got to get it under some measure of control.

And I'm not saying you're doing it, but when we do have that conversation I don't think disregarding the science and evidence would be a good place to start.

Nick · Dec 13, 2021

duffer said:
So just to clarify, you think that the government and scientists are advocating mask use to maximise their personal profit?

I have no doubt that some individuals will benefit financially from it all. Far from all of them.

I however think this latest thing is down to distraction from their own nonsense.

I'm sure Matt Hancock and the other MPs just did their dodgy deals out of the kindness of their heart though.

clint van damme · Dec 13, 2021

duffer said:
Without using Facebook or Twitter or some other made up bullshit, please link to something credible that shows holes in the trials that make the Covid vaccination unsafe.

I'm sick of dangerous, selfish lunatics making shit up on here, because they're scared of a simple vaccination that would make *everyone* safer.

Bluntly, you're the one sucking up the BS, but then what's worse is that you're spouting it back out.

Read this, and stop being such a fucking baby about a simple jab. Flower.

How Do We Know the COVID-19 Vaccine Won’t Have Long-Term Side Effects?

One of the reasons some people haven’t signed up to receive the COVID-19 vaccine is that they’re worried there might be unknown side effects that will show up months or years later. Although it’s true there are still a lot of things we’re learning about the vaccines — like how effective they are...

www.muhealth.org

Trevor on Facebook posted it after 5 lines of coke (35 % pure and bulked up with strychnine and rat poison)

duffer · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
For example Dr Zoë Hyde tried to shut down Chise for not having a doctorate. Some of the thread has been deleted.

Chise works for moderna for reference

OK, you've got me interested. What was Chise saying?

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 13, 2021

jordan210 said:
Chise works for moderna for reference

You added (or I didn't see) this last bit, so I've deleted my initial response, and will investigate a little

Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (20 Viewers)

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