Ched Evans (6 Viewers)

[Otis]

People should pay a little visit to Evans website and then decide if he will ever be accepted again. I believe very few would look at him. It's an abomination of accusation, denial, self pity and delusion.

This is football and a business.

I think a fair few clubs would be looking at him.

 

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[stupot07]

This is football and a business.

I think a fair few clubs would be looking at him.

I think it would be foolish for any club to sign him, yeah he may score you goals but signing him will cause irreparable damage to that club. At the end of the day he is a convicted rapist and sex offender.


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[Otis]

I think it would be foolish for any club to sign him, yeah he may score you goals but signing him will cause irreparable damage to that club. At the end of the day he is a convicted rapist and sex offender.


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stu, you misunderstand. I am talking about IF he proves his innocence to the rape conviction. I'm not talking about now. As it stands now, it would be very foolish for anyone to take him. If he clears his name though, clubs will then be lining up for him.

 

[stupot07]

stu, you misunderstand. I am talking about IF he proves his innocence to the rape conviction. I'm not talking about now. As it stands now, it would be very foolish for anyone to take him. If he clears his name though, clubs will then be lining up for him.

I still don't think they will be lining up for him, although someone would probably take a punt. I still wouldn't want him here.


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[Otis]

I still don't think they will be lining up for him, although someone would probably take a punt. I still wouldn't want him here.


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Me neither.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Just to play devil's advocate though... If he was, after all, innocent, she would cease to be a victim and his treatment of her following the 'event' might seem more understandable?

The 'she was asking for it' line is not necessarily the best one for him to take...

 

[Samo]

The 'she was asking for it' line is not necessarily the best one for him to take...

Did I say it was?

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Just to play devil's advocate though... If he was, after all, innocent, she would cease to be a victim and his treatment of her following the 'event' might seem more understandable?

No I don't think it would, even if was found innocent at some point down the line, that doesn't mean the girl has done anything wrong. She woke up alone, unclothed in a hotel room an couldn't remember how she had got there, by any reasonable person this is cause for concern and as far as I know she has told the truth throughout, it wasn't the girl who convicted Evans of rape it was a jury and thus his treatment of her would still wrong even if overturned.
To suggest otherwise sets a dangerous precedent for future rape victims coming forward.
If Evans ever was proven innocent surely his anger should be directed at the justice system which found him guilty in the first place and not at the girl.

 

[Otis]

No I don't think it would, even if was found innocent at some point down the line, that doesn't mean the girl has done anything wrong. She woke up alone, unclothed in a hotel room an couldn't remember how she had got there, by any reasonable person this is cause for concern and as far as I know she has told the truth throughout, it wasn't the girl who convicted Evans of rape it was a jury and thus his treatment of her would still wrong even if overturned.
To suggest otherwise sets a dangerous precedent for future rape victims coming forward.
If Evans ever was proven innocent surely his anger should be directed at the justice system which found him guilty in the first place and not at the girl.

In full agreement on that last point.

 

[Samo]

No I don't think it would, even if was found innocent at some point down the line, that doesn't mean
the girl has done anything wrong. She woke up alone, unclothed in a hotel room an couldn't remember how she had got there, by any reasonable person this is cause for concern and as far as I know she has told the truth throughout, it wasn't the girl who convicted Evans of rape it was a jury and thus his treatment of her would still wrong even if overturned.
To suggest otherwise sets a dangerous precedent for future rape victims coming forward.
If Evans ever was proven innocent surely his anger should be directed at the justice system which found him guilty in the first place and not at the girl.

Again though, playing devil's advocate... If he is found not guilty on appeal, he is no longer a criminal and she is no longer (legally) a victim of crime. Would it not follow that his refusal to apologise for a crime he did not commit would be vindicated?
Are you saying that if he is found innocent he is still guilty?

 

[Grendel]

Again though, playing devil's advocate... If he is found not guilty on appeal, he is no longer a criminal and she is no longer (legally) a victim of crime. Would it not follow that his refusal to apologise for a crime he did not commit would be vindicated?
Are you saying that if he is found innocent he is still guilty?

He has used privilege and status to an extreme advantage. I urge people to look at his website. It's abhorrent. There is even a gallery trying to create the impression of a happy family devoted person.

It's very very unlikely he will get any appeal actually. If he did and succeeded one could reasonably still conclude that he manipulated the legal system. The victim has had to change identity. Therefore she will remain a victim. Evans went to a room to have sex with a drunk girl at the behest of his friend. It's a tawdry tale. He raped her - that's it.

 

[Samo]

He has used privilege and status to an extreme advantage. I urge people to look at his website. It's abhorrent. There is even a gallery trying to create the impression of a happy family devoted person.

It's very very unlikely he will get any appeal actually. If he did and succeeded one could reasonably still conclude that he
manipulated the legal system. The victim has had to change identity. Therefore she will remain a victim. Evans went to a room to have sex with a drunk girl at the behest of his friend. It's a tawdry tale. He raped her - that's it.

She would remain a victim in the sense that she has suffered but not, legally, a victim of Ched Evans.
Are we saying that guilty is always guilty but innocent could still be guilty? Therin lies the lynchmob mentality. Do you trust the law or don't you? Or only when it suits?

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Did I say it was?

Did I say you said it was?

 

[stupot07]

She would remain a victim in the sense that she has suffered but not, legally, a victim of Ched Evans.
Are we saying that guilty is always guilty but innocent could still be guilty? Therin lies the lynchmob mentality. Do you trust the law or don't you? Or only when it suits?

He was convicted of rape, and had 2 appeals rejected. Don't you trust the law?


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[Grendel]

She would remain a victim in the sense that she has suffered but not, legally, a victim of Ched Evans.
Are we saying that guilty is always guilty but innocent could still be guilty? Therin lies the lynchmob mentality. Do you trust the law or don't you? Or only when it suits?

I trust 12 individuals who sat and listened to the evidence and came to a conclusion far more than what is actually being attempted here to have the ruling overturned.

Wealth power and manipulation is not the law.

I could say something very controversial here but will try and refrain from doing so

 

[Samo]

He was convicted of rape, and had 2 appeals rejected. Don't you trust the law?

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Yes. We were hypothesising about a successful appeal
.

 

[Samo]

I trust 12 individuals who sat and listened to the evidence and came to a conclusion far more than what is actually being attempted here to have the ruling overturned.

Wealth power and manipulation is not the law.

I could say something very controversial here but will try and refrain from doing so

So do I, do you not trust them to find it unsafe?
Grendel refuses to get controversial? I will alert the press.

 

[armybike]

Yes. We were hypothesising about a successful appeal
.

Being found not guilty doesn't mean someone is necessarily innocent.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Again though, playing devil's advocate... If he is found not guilty on appeal, he is no longer a criminal and she is no longer (legally) a victim of crime. Would it not follow that his refusal to apologise for a crime he did not commit would be vindicated?

Not disputing that, I can see the logic of not apologising for the crime whilst he is still appealing his innocence. The apology he issued in January should have came almost immediately after his release. If his appeals continue to fail and all his avenues have been exhausted, there has to come a point where Evans must accept his guilt.

Are you saying that if he is found innocent he is still guilty?

No where did I say or even imply that? If he is found innocent of rape upon appeal then he is innocent of the crime but is still culpable of treating the girl appallingly, being innocent of the crime doesn't justify that or make it understandable (which was the first point you raise) as she has has done nothing wrong irrelevant of Evans guilt.

 

[Johnnythespider]

I think the fact that a couple of clubs have already tested the water of their fans opinion, by showing an interest in signing him would suggest that a successful appeal would result in a queue forming for his services.

 

[Samo]

Being found not guilty doesn't mean someone is necessarily innocent.

No... But the law is designed that way to protect the innocent.

 

[Grendel]

So do I, do you not trust them to find it unsafe?
Grendel refuses to get controversial? I will alert the press.

I am assuming looking at this creatures website that there has been an attempt now to overturn the verdict as it's unsafe - hence the delightful section showing video evidence of the woman's entry into the hotel.

I repeat - the jury system found him guilty. I believe the collective view is the best.

I got myself into a whole load of trouble once when I expressed a view about original convictions, appeals and something I wished was in place which I 100% object to. Fill in the dots.

 

[Sick Boy]

He has used privilege and status to an extreme advantage. I urge people to look at his website. It's abhorrent. There is even a gallery trying to create the impression of a happy family devoted person.

It's very very unlikely he will get any appeal actually. If he did and succeeded one could reasonably still conclude that he manipulated the legal system. The victim has had to change identity. Therefore she will remain a victim. Evans went to a room to have sex with a drunk girl at the behest of his friend. It's a tawdry tale. He raped her - that's it.

That gallery and that video he released with his vacuous girlfriend are sickening. Luckily he isn't allowed to go and play abroad either as he is a sex offender. Hopefully he will end up penniless in a gutter somewhere in a few years.

He is a nasty piece of work.

 

[Samo]

Not disputing that, I can see the logic of not apologising for the crime whilst he is still appealing his innocence. The apology he issued in January should have came almost immediately after his release. If his appeals continue to fail and all his avenues have been exhausted, there has to come a point where Evans must accept his guilt.


No where did I say or even imply that? If he is found innocent of rape upon appeal then he is innocent of the crime but is still culpable of treating the girl appallingly, being innocent of the crime doesn't justify that or make it understandable (which was the first point you raise) as she has has done nothing wrong irrelevant of Evans guilt.

Accept his guilt whether actually guilty or not? Would you?

 

[Samo]

I am assuming looking at this creatures website that there has been an attempt now to
overturn the verdict as it's unsafe - hence the delightful section showing video evidence of the woman's entry into the hotel.

I repeat - the jury system found him guilty. I believe the collective view is the best.

I got myself into a whole load of trouble once when I expressed a view about original convictions, appeals and something I wished was in place which I 100% object to. Fill in the dots.

You believe the collective view on conviction but not on appeal?

 

[Sick Boy]

Accept his guilt whether actually guilty or not? Would you?

Why are you so keen to play devil's advocate about a convicted sex offender? I still can't believe how rape is treated as a minor crime by some men. It's as bad as murder in my book.

 

[Philosorapter]

Once a jury has convicted it is up to the convicted to prove innocence or easier, to overturn the verdict as unsafe. At the moment he is convicted and paid his dues to society. He is free to play football. However, I wouldn't pay money to watch him play football, and I guess other people wouldn't as well. If the conviction though is overturned then I cant see a problem with him playing for a team again.

 

[Samo]

Why are you so keen to play devil's advocate about a convicted sex offender? I still can't believe
how rape is treated as a minor crime by some men. It's as bad as murder in my book.

I agree. And if you look back at my posts on previous Evans threads you will see how I regard the man. I play devil's advocate because its an important subject and can easily end up with mobs and pitchforks.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Accept his guilt whether actually guilty or not? Would you?

If he is still guilty after he has exhausted all his legal options and he has no other appeals, then yes absolutely he should accept his guilt.

He should accept that he didn't fully understand the law of what classes as rape, he should accept his own definition of what he thinks rape is, is wrong and that in the legal definition of rape his actions crossed that line.

 

[Samo]

If he is still guilty after he has exhausted all his legal options and he has no other appeals, then yes absolutely he should accept his guilt.

He should accept that he didn't fully understand the law of what classes as rape, he should accept his own definition of what he thinks rape is, is wrong and that in the legal definition of rape his actions crossed that line.

Talking of the acceptance of guilt and of people with the sir name Evans... I wonder if Timothy Evans, convicted of murder and again on appeal, accepted his guilt just before they hung him for a crime he didn't commit?
Although I do take your point.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Talking of the acceptance of guilt and of people with the sir name Evans... I wonder if Timothy Evans, convicted of murder and again on appeal, accepted his guilt just before they hung him for a crime he didn't commit?
Although I do take your point.

Completely different case and circumstances, not sure why you feel the need to bring it up.

We know all the facts of this case, the facts were wrong in the case of Timothy Evans. Its the interpretation of the law where Ched Evans believe they have got it wrong. Ched Evans doesn't deny having sex with the woman, his defence is that he believes his actions doesn't constitute as rape. In the eyes of the law, they believed it was. If his appeals continue to be rejected then Evans should accept that that he got it wrong with is own interpretation of what is rape.

 

[Samo]

Completely different case and circumstances, not sure why you feel the need to bring it up.

We know all the facts of this case, the facts were wrong in the case of Timothy Evans. Its the interpretation of the law where Ched Evans believe they have got it wrong. Ched Evans doesn't deny having sex with the woman, his defence is that he believes his actions doesn't constitute as rape. In the eyes of the law, they believed it was. If his appeals continue to be rejected then Evans should accept that that he got it wrong with is own interpretation of what is rape.

As I say, I take your point. But interpretation of the law should be left to lawyers. You seemed to suggest earlier that should those lawyers not find in the way you find agreeable then there is room for your own verdict. We are not armed with all the nuances and detail of the case and yet it seems most are more than willing to draw their own conclusions regardless of the legal system.

 

[Otis]

Once a jury has convicted it is up to the convicted to prove innocence or easier, to overturn the verdict as unsafe. At the moment he is convicted and paid his dues to society. He is free to play football. However, I wouldn't pay money to watch him play football, and I guess other people wouldn't as well. If the conviction though is overturned then I cant see a problem with him playing for a team again.

Stop talking sense you numpty!

I can envision a 600 page rantathon looming.

Fact is, he is guilty. No-one should touch him with a barge pole. I do think it is a bit presumptious though talking too much about if he overturns the convcition.

I think we should just leave it that he is guilty and wait and see what transpires, if indeed anything does.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

As I say, I take your point. But interpretation of the law should be left to lawyers. You seemed to suggest earlier that should those lawyers not find in the way you find agreeable then there is room for your own verdict. We are not armed with all the nuances and detail of the case and yet it seems most are more than willing to draw their own conclusions regardless of the legal system.

No if the law finds him innocent, then he is innocent and is not a rapist. He should then be allowed to live his life as he sees fit without persecution from the mob or the rapist label following him.

To go back to your original point though I'd still think the woman has been treated appallingly in the aftermath of it all though, as I maintain regardless of whether he is innocent or guilty in my mind she has done nothing wrong and I'd still have my own opinion on Evans and what type of person he is.

 

[Samo]

No if the law finds him innocent, then he is innocent and is not a rapist. He should then be allowed to live his life as he sees fit without persecution from the mob or the rapist label following him.

To go back to your original point though I'd still think the woman has been treated appallingly in the aftermath of it all though, as I maintain regardless of whether he is innocent or guilty in my mind she has done nothing wrong and I'd still have my own opinion on Evans and what type of person he is.

Its good to hear that an innocent man could live his life free of persecution and with no label following him...
Do your 'own opinions' exclude him from playing for a particular football club?