Carl Baker (2 Viewers)

[Marty]

Well you don't rate Bell and Baker. AT obviously does. If you concede that he's a better judge than you..then your opinions may be at fault perhaps, no?

No, I don't rate Baker or Bell & I'm fairly certain that if money was available, that these 2 wouldn't be anywhere near the first team. It shows by all the rumors of them joining other clubs how highly they are thought of within the game.

 

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[wingy]

what did Jimmy Hill have in the locker before getting his start @CCFC? the exact same as Thorn, give this guy resources ,see this club grow

 

[Marty]

No I don't think you did explain yourself well, in your OP you said "I seriously think Thorn needs to go" now you say "I'm not serious about getting rid of Thorn" sort of contradicting statements, and yea I forgot there will still probably be signing on fee's and agent fee's in contract renewals but we would still be paying transfer fee's and letting players leave for free for similar ability players.

I still disagree with your points though
1)If Thorn did get the chop he would not be replaced by an "influential manager" he would be replaced by someone with similar experience and position in the game as him
2)Even if an influential manager he would face the same problems with the board. Footballers are motivated/attracted to clubs by money and we have none.

It is a lack of ambition from the board and owners.

Need to take the post as a whole, the next couple of sentances went on to suggest that Thorn has little influence in the game. As the only players we have brought in weren't wanted elsewhere. A new manager with more influence in the game to bring in better quality players for similar wages would see us better off. It wasn't like, i want rid of Thorn as i think hes shit. I think hes doing a fairly good job.

Transfer fees aren't much of an issue, think that many good players see out their contracts and i seriously think we could pick up better players on a free.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

As you find it so easy to spot these players, I then asked you for your top 3 (I'm sure you have many more) who we could sign from the lower leagues and be sure that we could sell on to the Premiership.

Hope that clears it up.

I agree with all your points, but can I have a go at this? I'll go you one better and make it all L2:

1) Sam Hatton (AFC Wimbledon) Fantastic little RB who started out in midfield and has the passing ability to play there again. Very much used to the short passing game and also a fantastic crosser.
2) Ryan Hall (Southend) Left-winger who was unlucky to be released as a teen at Palace. Has gone away and rebuilt in the Blue Square South and is on fire under Paul Sturrock's stewardship at Southend. Great crosser with a wand of a left foot and also contributes goals.
3) Kyle McFazdean (Crawley Town) Powerful defender who was released as a youngster by Sheff U. Gained England C recognition whilst at Blue Square North Alfreton and is one of the rocks of the Crawley side that stormed through BSP last season and is tearing up L2 at present. Capable of playing at full-back and DMC although primarily a centre-back. Great reader of the game and offers a goal threat from set pieces.

they're all young and would take 2-3 years more experience and coaching, but all have something special

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

I agree with all your points, but can I have a go at this? I'll go you one better and make it all L2:

1) Sam Hatton (AFC Wimbledon) Fantastic little RB who started out in midfield and has the passing ability to play there again. Very much used to the short passing game and also a fantastic crosser.
2) Ryan Hall (Southend) Left-winger who was unlucky to be released as a teen at Palace. Has gone away and rebuilt in the Blue Square South and is on fire under Paul Sturrock's stewardship at Southend. Great crosser with a wand of a left foot and also contributes goals.
3) Kyle McFazdean (Crawley Town) Powerful defender who was released as a youngster by Sheff U. Gained England C recognition whilst at Blue Square North Alfreton and is one of the rocks of the Crawley side that stormed through BSP last season and is tearing up L2 at present. Capable of playing at full-back and DMC although primarily a centre-back. Great reader of the game and offers a goal threat from set pieces.

they're all young and would take 2-3 years more experience and coaching, but all have something special

I'd send a note to the club as AT has much less time to scout these days!!!!

Mind you, I'd agree some commission first

 

[Marty]

Sorry if it was tricky to understand.

Let's go back to your post that started it. You said - apologies for the paraphrase - that AT can't spot a player. I pointed out a number of his good (some would say very good, some would say exceptional signings). You then appeared to dismiss these as being fairly obvious ones - my words not yours, but that seemed to be your clear meaning.

There are many players that perform well in L1 and L2. Few go on to the Premiership. Westie, Dann and Fox (via Celtic) all went to the Premiership.

I think that's quite impressive. You obviously don't.

As you find it so easy to spot these players, I then asked you for your top 3 (I'm sure you have many more) who we could sign from the lower leagues and be sure that we could sell on to the Premiership.

Hope that clears it up.

So you're saying that Thorn & myself were the only people to know about these players?? don't be silly, pritty much every scout in the country would of known them + 80% of lower league fans. It was just luck that they joined us, these were fairly obvious players, scouting the top players in the league below is hardly the mark of a genius is it. Knowing of these players again, is not out of the ordinary.

You seem to think that they were picked out of the local park or something. Whats hard to understand that we scouted the top players in the league below and signed them, you also suggested that Arteta was also picked up out of nowhere, when in reality he was already a big name in the game, It's like crediting the Man United scouts for Rooney. my batteries are running out on my keyboard anybody got any i can borrow

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

I'd send a note to the club as AT has much less time to scout these days!!!!

Mind you, I'd agree some commission first

Good plan! You'll notice all my players have come from nonleague: I reckon I was the only City fan who, when we signed Hussey, was doing cartwheels of joy!

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

So you're saying that Thorn & myself were the only people to know about these players?? don't be silly, pritty much every scout in the country would of known them + 80% of lower league fans. It was just luck that they joined us, these were fairly obvious players, scouting the top players in the league below is hardly the mark of a genius is it. Knowing of these players again, is not out of the ordinary.

You seem to think that they were picked out of the local park or something. Whats hard to understand that we scouted the top players in the league below and signed them, you also suggested that Arteta was also picked up out of nowhere, when in reality he was already a big name in the game, It's like crediting the Man United scouts for Rooney. my batteries are running out on my computer anybody got any i can borrow

Oh dear.

I did try to explain it last time but I'll give it one more go (a triumph of hope over expectation, as someone said in slightly different circumstances).

You said that AT can't spot a player. I pointed out that he scouted Arteta for Everton. You then claimed that this was obvious, which I presume is you acknowledging that At can spot a player - albeit one that you believe was obvious, as you (very impressively) had heard of him while he was a teenager - and as we all know, there are no cases of promising youngsters not establishing themselves as major stars.

We then moved on to Westie, Dann and Fox. I noted that lots of players do well in L1 and L2. This does not mean that they will necessarilly do well in the Championship and it very rarely means that they will go on to the Premiership.

I then asked you (as it's all so obvious), who the sure bets are that we can sign from L1 and L2, although if you could get from the local park that you seem so obsessed with, that would be even more impressive.

 

[The Reverend Skyblue]

Marty, re-read all your posts in this thread carefully, you contradict yourself over and over again.I would advise you to make your point then not shift every time someone brings you up on your contradictions.
Good luck

The Rev

ps. we won a point away tonight against one of the best sides in this league

 

[Astute]

I was expecting this, been saying for weeks we would, I seriously think Thorn needs to go, he quite clearly doesn't have a clue what makes a good player and doesn't. Bell, McPake, Baker and rumors of McSheffrey signing a new deal, shows that he lacks ambition and has none to little influence on potential new signings. You could say well he has no money, but what money he has been given he has wasted badly. We will achieve nothing with him and not only we will not achieve anything this season he has secured our future with no hope by offering these players deals, not a single team in the football will take any of these players we have offered contracts to.

:facepalm:

Hope you were p1ssed out of your face whilst celebrating a good point last night. I was Not bad enough though to come out with such contradicting and so far off the mark comments as yourself.

Little tip for the future. When you are contradicting yourself and nobody agrees with anything you say maybe there is a chance you are wrong

 

[andyboy81]

Does anyone else hate October?? A few days of playing fifa or football manager and every fucker thinks they're a shit hot scout!!

Having said that In a SLIGHT defense of Marty, he is right about Arteta. Would think any player who starts as a trainee and then gets loaned to a team like Paris St Germain is going to be on the majority of european club radars. Maybe thats why he played for Rangers and Sociedad before he got his move to Everton????

But other than that.... dont agree with too many of this points

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

So you're saying that Thorn & myself were the only people to know about these players?? don't be silly, pritty much every scout in the country would of known them + 80% of lower league fans. It was just luck that they joined us, these were fairly obvious players, scouting the top players in the league below is hardly the mark of a genius is it. Knowing of these players again, is not out of the ordinary.

You seem to think that they were picked out of the local park or something. Whats hard to understand that we scouted the top players in the league below and signed them, you also suggested that Arteta was also picked up out of nowhere, when in reality he was already a big name in the game, It's like crediting the Man United scouts for Rooney. my batteries are running out on my keyboard anybody got any i can borrow

He is saying you could now go and google top 50 best prospects in europe and you would get a list of the 50 best youngsters from europe then when one of these players then makes it big you claim "you already knew about him", obviously not all these players will make it a lot of them won't and the majority of them could be duds and not fullfil there potential, the scouts job is from all these players of potential, who could all be of similar ability now is to assess and analyse which of these players has the best potential and which will be able to play at the highest level in the future.

Lets take Walcott and C.Ronaldo as an example

Walcott signed for Arsenal for 12 million pounds as at 16/17 years of age with huge potential and hype around him, in 5 years or so at Arsenal Walcott's progress has been slower than expected and I wouldn't really value Walcott at much more than Arsenal paid for him from Southampton Bad scouting from Arsenal

C.Ronaldo was signed at 18 for Man UTD for 12.24 million pounds. He came as a bit of a flash pony but also with huge potential and hype, in his 6 years at UTD he became world player of the year and was sold onto one of the biggest clubs in world football for 80 million pounds. Great scouting from Man UTD

Now I am sure both of these players were known by other clubs before signed for there respective clubs, it is easy to look back now and say it was obvious Ronaldo was world class, butboth players were signed for similar amounts and came with a similar hype.

So he was pointing out that AT's picks have in general moved onto better things and gone on to play at a higher level. as Dann/Fox/Westwood all went on to play in the premierleague and Arteta is now playing champions league football.

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

He is saying you could now go and google top 50 best prospects in europe and you would get a list of the 50 best youngsters from europe then when one of these players then makes it big you claim "you already knew about him", obviously not all these players will make it a lot of them won't and the majority of them could be duds and not fullfil there potential, the scouts job is from all these players of potential, who could all be of similar ability now is to assess and analyse which of these players has the best potential and which will be able to play at the highest level in the future.

Lets take Walcott and C.Ronaldo as an example

Walcott signed for Arsenal for 12 million pounds as at 16/17 years of age with huge potential and hype around him, in 5 years or so at Arsenal Walcott's progress has been slower than expected and I wouldn't really value Walcott at much more than Arsenal paid for him from Southampton Bad scouting from Arsenal

C.Ronaldo was signed at 18 for Man UTD for 12.24 million pounds. He came as a bit of a flash pony but also with huge potential and hype, in his 6 years at UTD he became world player of the year and was sold onto one of the biggest clubs in world football for 80 million pounds. Great scouting from Man UTD

Now I am sure both of these players were known by other clubs before signed for there respective clubs, it is easy to look back now and say it was obvious Ronaldo was world class, butboth players were signed for similar amounts and came with a similar hype.

So he was pointing out that AT's picks have in general moved onto better things and gone on to play at a higher level. as Dann/Fox/Westwood all went on to play in the premierleague and Arteta is now playing champions league football.

What he said!!!!

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

The point that id like to make is, Bell, McPake and Baker are players who are probably League 1 class.
If thats the case, if we do get relegated then we have a foundation for next season. Same applies to McDonald aswell.

Anyone disagree?

Think Marty has a point, some of the players Thorn has bought in have been average to say the least.

 

[wingy]

I think the above players were selected as bargain buys due to the financial constraints imposed,if they are mixed into the team with 3-4 quality players you'd assume a reasonably able mid -higher table champ team.the thing that interests me now is how do Baker ,Mcsheff get back in the team,Mcsheff has'nt yet signed the new offer to him,it will only be when bell or the kids go off the boil again.

 

[TheParsonsHose]

I actually think Bell has been much much better of late. McPake.....well we need to keep the club doctor in a job and Baker can be the next Eastwood if he sets his mind to it.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

The point that id like to make is, Bell, McPake and Baker are players who are probably League 1 class.
If thats the case, if we do get relegated then we have a foundation for next season. Same applies to McDonald aswell.

Anyone disagree?

Think Marty has a point, some of the players Thorn has bought in have been average to say the least.

Nah Mcpake is championship standard if he can overcome his injuries, everyone was crowing about Baker when he first joined but he went off the boil under Boothroyd and it is not a light switch you can switch on and off.
Bell is below average though and always has been at Coventry.
You say some of Thorn's signings were average but I would say most of them have been good.

I am one of the first to criticise AT if I think he is doing something wrong but on the whole I think he is doing a good a job as can be expected with resources taken into account.

Some people seem to have a personal vendetta against AT and some people won't be happy until he is replaced with someone just as inexperienced or generally hopeless, there is no point in arguing with these people you would have a better time of it banging your head off a brick wall.

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

No personal vendetta from me just feel his persona of a cheeky cockney is winning fans over rather than his managerial skills. His record is nothing great to say the least and yes he has had his hands tied. I have never once called for his head nor has anyone else but merely pointing out he’s not this miracle worker many on here believe he is.

 

[ccfcway]

pretty sure if you added up how much we have spent on players he reccomended, and then took off what we have sold them for / what they are worth, he would have easiy paid for his wages for the next few years.

As a result of that, I would say he has been a success.

 

[Astute]

Baker can be the next Eastwood if he sets his mind to it.

So Baker would have to set his mind to it to become overweight and unfit? :thinking about:

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

So Baker would have to set his mind to it to become overweight and unfit? :thinking about:

Takes a lot of effort to eat that much and avoid exercise?

 

[shmmeee]

Don't understand the confusion here. We've not specially selected Baker, Bell and McPake as the best players to give a contract to.

Thorn has inherited a squad with about 7 players out of contract at the end of the season. He's offered contracts to ALL of them, in the knowledge that the ones he wants (Clingan & Cranie) probably won't re-sign.

When you consider that, and the fact that SISU haven't exactly been on a one in one out system (more like one in three out), he probably just wants to tie up as many players as possible before he's left with nothing but the kids again next season.

Say what you like about Bell, Baker and McPake, but they're as good as the players we've been in for recently (L1 players)

 

[TheParsonsHose]

So Baker would have to set his mind to it to become overweight and unfit? :thinking about:

I meant expectation/potential vs output for us although he could become overweight and unfit now he has a longer contract, agreed.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Ahh, Stephen Hughes syndrome.

 

[wingy]

In the news in brief section BBc ,described as undisclosed ,what the hell is it that we're not meant to know fffall these days?

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Seems that "undisclosed" is dripping into contracts as well as transfers fees now. Thomas Vermaelen signed a new deal at Arsenal yesterday, but it was only reported as "long term" and "beyond 2013". The problem is that if they're doing this to try and secure their players against predators, it simply won't work: the agents will always make sure that interested clubs know how long a players deal is for, as well as what money they're on.

 

[wingy]

In our case its more to do with keeping mushrooms in the dark