diggerdaley
New Member
What do the ACL critics consider to be a fair rent to play at the Ricoh, considering the construction costs were £113 mil. according to Wikki ? :blue:
Arena Rent (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter diggerdaley
- Start date
Sky_Blue_Ste
Active Member
It's not the rent as such but more the income streams that was the stumbling block
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I think the stumbling block was mainly sisu's way of running a business
grego_gee
New Member
The final cost was £118m. But that is the cost of the entire project more than half of which has nothing to do with the FC. casino, hotel, exhibition space etc. We only pay rent for the stadium and then only on a per event basis for 25 time slots of 12 hours. Its very difficult to value but £1.5m was daylight robbery! And taking the piss!
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Skybluesquirrel
New Member
Sorry - missed the reports of ACL directors holding guns to the heads of McGinity and Richardson, forcing them to sign under duress.
How come it took SISU so long to work out the rent was so high. Poor due diligence? Unlike them to not notice for five years. I thought they were business people.
'25 time slots of 12 hours' restricts ACL's earning potential - imagine how many more concerts could be put on if the restrictions on keeping the playing surface to the required standard were removed? Using your argument, I only 'live' in my house between 7pm and 9am. I need a rent rebate - its too high.
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Not just the rent but the Club (CCFC) must receive ALL revenue streams if we're going to compete and survive.
The rent should be geared to the Division the 'City's' Club play in ie. Division 2 - £50,000, Division 1 - £175,000 - Championship £450,000 - Premiership - £1:5 MILLION - Europe - £2:5 million approximately but I stress the Club must receive ALL revenue streams.
(To quote Ray Ranson, Paul Fletcher & Mark Robins to name just three, although I could quote many, many more.)
The rent should be geared to the Division the 'City's' Club play in ie. Division 2 - £50,000, Division 1 - £175,000 - Championship £450,000 - Premiership - £1:5 MILLION - Europe - £2:5 million approximately but I stress the Club must receive ALL revenue streams.
(To quote Ray Ranson, Paul Fletcher & Mark Robins to name just three, although I could quote many, many more.)
grego_gee
New Member
No problem, they can rip it up now!
good luck to them!
(& good luck to you with your rent appeal!)
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Skybluesquirrel
New Member
Grego - there are several questions in there. Id love to hear your counter-argument.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
This is complete tripe. It didn't cost that and ACL spent nothing like that on it after the sale to Tescos.
What is really disturbing is why the question is asked. The answer is as little as you can get away with.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No more concerts would be played - look at the schedules - major concerts are limited in number anyway. For you the house analogy is pure lameness.
grego_gee
New Member
There speaks a true football supporter!
where do all these ACL supporters get off?
imp:Skybluesquirrel
New Member
What did it cost then? Ive seen a report that confirms £113m. Can you post a link to back up your costs, as very interested to see an alternative reports.
If i sell land to Tesco, when does that become my money to invest where ever I like? Will it always be Tesco's money.? If thats the case, when I go to Tesco am I actually spending my bosses money and not mine. If so, my boss has a serious drink problem and should stop smoking too...
saltaire bantam
Well-Known Member
Bradford City pay about £370k per annum for a 25000 seater stadium (tbh construction costs are irrelevant). That rent has hampered us in L2, in L1 it's sustainable and if we ever hit the PL again, it would be peanuts.
Current owner has taken us from the PL and owing our own ground to 6 seasons in L2 and somebody else (Flamingo Land Theme Park) owning it. One promotion and you'd think the sun shone out of his arse! Football fans eh?
Current owner has taken us from the PL and owing our own ground to 6 seasons in L2 and somebody else (Flamingo Land Theme Park) owning it. One promotion and you'd think the sun shone out of his arse! Football fans eh?
Skybluesquirrel
New Member
How many were played last year? What number is the venue restricted to and why?
To suggest that the club only use ther stadium '25 time slots of 12 hours' is pretty lame. Hence my reply.
Southerner79
New Member
Otis
Well-Known Member
Which exactly sums up why the whole thing is so ridiculous.
We are considering playing 33 miles away, when there is a fine stadium, empty and available here, with an agreed rent verbally in place, but the whole thing falls down over income streams?
For that reason we would move away for over 3 years and even have to build a whole new stadium?
Are people seriously telling me that there is no negotiation to be made over income streams?
It's laughable.
:facepalm:
Grendel
Well-Known Member
ACL as you well know did not spend anything like £113 million. Also in the community spirit angle one would have thought you would support a more football centric approach from council as at Swansea and stoke wouldn't you? Actually if yourONLY interest was the football club you'd insist on it.
As for the housing argument you end up getting paid what the rent is really worth - ACL will find that out soon enough.
Skybluesquirrel
New Member
Bradford City pay about £370k per annum for a 25000 seater stadium (tbh construction costs are irrelevant). That rent has hampered us in L2, in L1 it's sustainable and if we ever hit the PL again, it would be peanuts.
Current owner has taken us from the PL and owing our own ground to 6 seasons in L2 and somebody else (Flamingo Land Theme Park) owning it. One promotion and you'd think the sun shone out of his arse! Football fans eh?
Our problem comes from the arrogance of both former and current directors/owners. It never occurred to any of them we weren't destined to go anywhere but up. SISU should have noticed that the contract contained no clauses that allowed for rebates for relegation when taking over. There was a period of due diligence which they too overlooked the issue.
Grendall/Grego.
Do you think if ACL owned the club and SISU owned the Ricoh, that SISU would alter the rent agreement for relegation? If you do, would you care to show me examples where they have acted in a similar way with distressed companies.
deanocity3
New Member
here is what richardson said to cov tele last year
The deal for the Ricoh Arena
WHATEVER people think of Richardson, he was the man with the vision for the club to own a state-of-the-art new stadium that would make money seven days a week, 52 weeks of the year.
“The stadium was my big vision but it was never my vision that the club wouldn’t own it,” said the former City chief who, remarkably, has never set foot in the Ricoh Arena.
Ricoh Arena
“I have no idea what happened after I left. I can show you the document where I did the deal with the Tesco chairman directly.
"We bought 88 acres from British Gas.
"I sold 30 of the 88 acres where it is now for £66.5m which was the highest price Tesco had ever paid for an out of London site. And there were no fees so the club didn’t pay anyone because I did it direct with Tesco, and that saved the club £3m in fees.
“I don’t know what happened after that but before long the whole thing had gone to the Higgs Charity and the Council.
"So I don’t know, did Tesco pay the money direct to the council? I’ve no idea. I’d love to know and to be honest the supporters should know because it was a huge deal at the time.”
It is understood that Richardson bought an option to buy the Foleshill gas works site but when that option ran out and he couldn’t raise the money to pay British Gas, the council stepped in and bought the land for £20m - including £12m to decontaminate it – and then sold it to Tesco, using the £40m profit to part-fund the construction of the stadium.
Richardson admitted: “I had left when the final deal was done, but that was going to be the best asset ever for the club.
"That was going to be the bedrock of the future of Coventry City Football Club and for some extraordinary reason that all went by the by and I have never, to this day, understood – and neither have I asked to be honest – why that ever happened.
“But it was absolutely crucial to the future of the club that it had ownership of the stadium and all the revenue streams. It was the key to everything.”
The Sky Blues' on-the-pitch
ON football matters, Richardson believes the instability of a revolving managerial door is largely to blame for the club failing to get even close to a return to the top flight.
“You can’t go on with ten managers in 11 years and expect to be even remotely successful or secure,” said the man who showed great loyalty to Gordon Strachan for the best part of five years.
“It can happen if you say ‘this is the person I believe in and this is the person we can be successful with.”
Asked if he can believe the club would be stranded in the Championship for so long, let alone get relegated again, he said: “No.
"I left in January 2002 and we were in the top six at the end of Christmas and I honestly believed we’d get straight back up.
“And then the whole stability of the club fell apart and it has never, ever come back. If you look at the Geoffrey Robinson and Mike McGinnity era, neither of them knew anything about football.
"I feel so strongly that it could have been so much better but you can’t do it if all of a sudden people off the TV say ‘you should have him as a manager’ – you can’t do it.
“Managers need a supportive chairman until the point when there is nothing left. I would never have got rid of Gordon and Gordon would never have left.
The deal for the Ricoh Arena
WHATEVER people think of Richardson, he was the man with the vision for the club to own a state-of-the-art new stadium that would make money seven days a week, 52 weeks of the year.
“The stadium was my big vision but it was never my vision that the club wouldn’t own it,” said the former City chief who, remarkably, has never set foot in the Ricoh Arena.
Ricoh Arena
“I have no idea what happened after I left. I can show you the document where I did the deal with the Tesco chairman directly.
"We bought 88 acres from British Gas.
"I sold 30 of the 88 acres where it is now for £66.5m which was the highest price Tesco had ever paid for an out of London site. And there were no fees so the club didn’t pay anyone because I did it direct with Tesco, and that saved the club £3m in fees.
“I don’t know what happened after that but before long the whole thing had gone to the Higgs Charity and the Council.
"So I don’t know, did Tesco pay the money direct to the council? I’ve no idea. I’d love to know and to be honest the supporters should know because it was a huge deal at the time.”
It is understood that Richardson bought an option to buy the Foleshill gas works site but when that option ran out and he couldn’t raise the money to pay British Gas, the council stepped in and bought the land for £20m - including £12m to decontaminate it – and then sold it to Tesco, using the £40m profit to part-fund the construction of the stadium.
Richardson admitted: “I had left when the final deal was done, but that was going to be the best asset ever for the club.
"That was going to be the bedrock of the future of Coventry City Football Club and for some extraordinary reason that all went by the by and I have never, to this day, understood – and neither have I asked to be honest – why that ever happened.
“But it was absolutely crucial to the future of the club that it had ownership of the stadium and all the revenue streams. It was the key to everything.”
The Sky Blues' on-the-pitch
ON football matters, Richardson believes the instability of a revolving managerial door is largely to blame for the club failing to get even close to a return to the top flight.
“You can’t go on with ten managers in 11 years and expect to be even remotely successful or secure,” said the man who showed great loyalty to Gordon Strachan for the best part of five years.
“It can happen if you say ‘this is the person I believe in and this is the person we can be successful with.”
Asked if he can believe the club would be stranded in the Championship for so long, let alone get relegated again, he said: “No.
"I left in January 2002 and we were in the top six at the end of Christmas and I honestly believed we’d get straight back up.
“And then the whole stability of the club fell apart and it has never, ever come back. If you look at the Geoffrey Robinson and Mike McGinnity era, neither of them knew anything about football.
"I feel so strongly that it could have been so much better but you can’t do it if all of a sudden people off the TV say ‘you should have him as a manager’ – you can’t do it.
“Managers need a supportive chairman until the point when there is nothing left. I would never have got rid of Gordon and Gordon would never have left.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
ACL do not own the Ricoh.
grego_gee
New Member
Sqirriol, since you have asked so nicely I will expand my reply,
- The original deal was signed by previous owners but intended to be for a limited time - they had a buy-back deal on a half interest in ACL
- I believe SISU have been trying to get the rent reduced since their original purchase.
- I take your point that the pitch has to be maintained throughout the year, however I think you will find that CCFC had responsibility for this.
- Whatever the rent is it is only acceptable if those paying it don't think they could build something better for the same price as the rent.
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stupot07
Well-Known Member
Of course it isn't lame. £1.2m would be fine, if the club had sole use of the football stadia for 365 days a year, gaining all available income streams from that and the ability to sub let it out for concerts and events.
grego_gee
New Member
Yes it is pretty Lame! - But that is all we get! Not really worth £1.5m is it!
We were locked out at the Olympics, when ACL made a killing at our expense! and we have never been let back in!
It has never been our Home! It has no atmosphere! and It is currently WAY too big for our needs!
(especially when all the CCC/ACL fans follow through on their promise of NOPM!)
imp:Skybluesquirrel
New Member
Sqirriol, since you have asked so nicely I will expand my reply,
- The original deal was signed by previous owners but intended to be for a limited time - they had a buy-back deal on a half interest in ACL
- I believe SISU have been trying to get the rent reduced since their original purchase.
- I take your point that the pitch has to be maintained throughout the year, however I think you will find that CCFC had responsibility for this.
- Whatever the rent is it is only acceptable if those paying it don't think they could build something better for the same price as the rent.
1. Agree signed by original owners. If CCFC couldn't find the £3m required when we were in the Premier league to help fund the build, when did they expect to have enough funds to buy into a completed project?
2. SISU had an option to buy the Higgs Trust share in ACL. The SBSL accounts show £1m being paid out on this option, even though only CCFC Ltd had the option. That money was never paid to the Higgs Trust. SISU then wrote off a £1m investment a couple of years later, which would appear to be the option on the share. Why did they choose not to go ahead with the purchase?
3. CCFC may well have responsibility for it. I'm no groundsman, but I think you would be working on the pitch on a Sunday and Monday after a Saturday game, followed by Thursday and Friday in preparation for the next week. Longer than your 12 hours suggested.
4. Brighton's AMEX. Shit hot ground aiming for the Premiership £90m. Doncaster. Nice little compact ground for lower leagues. £20m.
Lets see what TF comes up with, eh. And TF could give no guarantees that CCFC would own the ground. Its quite obvious that SISU will own the ground. It will be no different for the club.
Skybluesquirrel
New Member
Good point. For clarity then.
Do you think if ACL owned the club and SISU owned the lease from the council on the Ricoh, and that SISU would alter the rent agreement for relegation? If you do, would you care to show me examples where they have acted in a similar way with distressed companies.
grego_gee
New Member
The team were actually doing very well last year despite a stuttering start and we still had a good chance of reaching the playoffs until Leon Clarke dropped out.
I am sure that the administration would have been averted if Clarke had remained fit and we still had that chance of the playoffs,
I would like the Ricoh - if we could call it home but NO league one side could expect to fill a PL stadium and the fact is because it is less than half full it is not ideal.
The concept of a smaller stadium that we can fill now and expand as success takes us forward is sound.
If ACL want us to continue playing there FINE! but they must make it an attractive proposition and make concessions.
£400k on a per event basis just doesn't cut it. I agree with Joy on that one, that at that rate I would sooner build my own home!
50 year lease at £400k = £20m
pay rent = get nothing v build stadium financed over 50 years = own stadium then rent free + all income streams!
I can see how she sees it!
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Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Excellent question
skybluehugh
New Member
I may be wrong, but didn't CCFC sell the f&b rights to ACL?
Also, where did the money from the sale of HR go?'
Also, where did the money from the sale of HR go?'
Sky Blue Harry H
Well-Known Member
The team were actually doing very well last year despite a stuttering start and we still had a good chance of reaching the playoffs until Leon Clarke dropped out.
I am sure that the administration would have been averted if Clarke had remained fit and we still had that chance of the playoffs,
I would like the Ricoh - if we could call it home but NO league one side could expect to fill a PL stadium and the fact is because it is less than half full it is not ideal.
The concept of a smaller stadium that we can fill now and expand as success takes us forward is sound.
If ACL want us to continue playing there FINE! but they must make it an attractive proposition and make concessions.
£400k on a per event basis just doesn't cut it. I agree with Joy on that one, that at that rate I would sooner build my own home!
50 year lease at £400k = £20m
pay rent = get nothing v build stadium financed over 50 years = own stadium then rent free + all income streams!
I can see how she sees it!
Not sure how we find a smaller stadium that we can fill - are then successful, and suddenly expand it - how?
Off the top of my head, can't think of many stadia (except the likes of Newcastle and Man Utd - i.e all top notch stadia) where this has been done - needs serious money. Most of the 'little' ones just hire a few bolt on seats when a 'big' club comes to town. Expand, please (unless you are on about filling Sixfields, being successful and moving on to a bigger TF/Joy stadium - in which case, lay off the White Lightning)
Skybluesquirrel
New Member
'I am sure that the administration would have been averted if Clarke had remained fit and we still had that chance of the playoffs'.
Did you really mean to type that?
The team were doing quite well until the leagues top scorer (whilst employed by the city) McGoldrick was offered better terms at Ipswich than by SISU. The team were also doing quite well until the manager was offered better terms at Huddersfield.
Re my earlier point, you think we are aiming for the top with a £20m stadium then. Interesting.
Skybluesquirrel
New Member
Not sure how we find a smaller stadium that we can fill - are then successful, and suddenly expand it - how?
Off the top of my head, can't think of many stadia (except the likes of Newcastle and Man Utd - i.e all top notch stadia) where this has been done - needs serious money. Most of the 'little' ones just hire a few bolt on seats when a 'big' club comes to town. Expand, please (unless you are on about filling Sixfields, being successful and moving on to a bigger TF/Joy stadium - in which case, lay off the White Lightning)
Worth also bearing on mind that Sixfields is about to undergo extensive repairs to 2 sides of the ground this season. We are moving to a building site.
