Any news on the rent (2 Viewers)

But surely Sisu will face a winding up order if they don't reach an agreement. I can't see that they have any option but to pay. Its not like sisu's investors are potless they were in discussions to buy the charitys half not that long ago.

SISU are not at risk SBJ ............ CCFC are, but I suspect there is a real purpose to CCFC appointing insolvency advisors to try to avoid liquidation and maintain the plan

Were they in meaningful discussions about the shares ..... we all knew that there was no real financial return in buying 50% ..... or was it to buy time, ACL hardly likely to take action if one of the stakeholders is in discussions for example. TF has said himself there was no value in buying 50% so why negotiate?

oldskyblue58 said:

SISU are not at risk SBJ ............ CCFC are, but I suspect there is a real purpose to CCFC appointing insolvency advisors to try to avoid liquidation and maintain the plan

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Don't you think that this is part of their bluff ?
Unless these 40million losses are something to do with a tax avoidence scam i can't see them letting it fold.
How much would they get back for the assets i would say 5-10 million max less if they were not willing to right off the rest of the debt.

Just to add to my post no 35

If SISU get ACL via administration do not expect CCFC to own ACL or the lease from the Council. Ownership will be in SBS&L because that is where SISU clients have their loans. So that when the site is sold on the loans are repaid and very little chance of CCFC ever owning the ground. SISU clients repaid and CCFC still a tenant but only paying £200k for now ..... of course there might be review clauses that a new owner can take advantage of in a new lease negotiated between SISU and CCFC prior to disposal

careful what you wish for

sky blue john said:

Don't you think that this is part of their bluff ?
Unless these 40million losses are something to do with a tax avoidence scam i can't see them letting it fold.
How much would they get back for the assets i would say 5-10 million max less if they were not willing to right off the rest of the debt.

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They have no intention of letting it fold .............. SISU do this kind of thing on a regular basis, they know what they are doing and the prime driver is to protect their clients money ..... success for their clients is how SISU get paid afterall

oldskyblue58 said:

They have no intention of letting it fold .............. SISU do this kind of thing on a regular basis, they know what they are doing and the prime driver is to protect their clients money ..... success for their clients is how SISU get paid afterall

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So do you agree OSB that they have no other option but to pay the rent ?

they still have options SBJ - will they agree and pay the rent anytime soon ? No i dont think they will because that takes the pressure off ACL for a while..... if i am right in their objective why would they do that, why cause all these problems and not follow through.

These people are used to going right to the brink before doing any deal. There is still time. ACL have said no decision on action before January..... if winding up order served I would guess that leaves 6 weeks before in court, if not challenged. If they get to court there could be a challenge and drag it out further........ all the time ACL is being starved of funds, Yorkshire bank gets v twitchy, increased risk of ACL going into Administration, SISU make sure all other creditors are paid ..........

Or

agree a deal and then default again. And on that subject why would ACL Council & Charity believe that CCFC wouldnt default again, what is to stop them. If they did then the process starts again doesnt it and all the time ACL is starved of money ..... and it is the lack of money that will kill it - SISU know this

Do they have other options than paying the rent - yes

Well I have the option of winning the Euro Millions tonight and I believe I am going to take up that option.


Tomorrow morning all our troubles will be over.

Otis said:

Well I have the option of winning the Euro Millions tonight and I believe I am going to take up that option.


Tomorrow morning all our troubles will be over.

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I'll win the jackpot tonight, and the world will end 10 minutes later.


Fucking typical.

If the world ends will you leave the winnings in your will to me? That's what friends are for remember.

quite rightly we all look at it from a CCFC perspective, but in my opinion to understand what is actually going you have to put yourself in SISU's shoes and look at it as they see it.

CCFC is an investment that has gone wrong, they have millions of their clients money at serious risk and with it the reputation of SISU/JS.

As a hedge fund the driving force is a return on the investment in the shortest time possible and at the least cost to investors - that has not gone so well so far and need to re-establish credibility.

The investment has minimal assets (players, Ryton and League share all of which must be protected to make anything work). The major asset linked to the investment is the stadium and importantly the development rights of the site but ownership is in the hands of another company. But that company is cash reliant on CCFC to pay the current loan set up.

That company is likely to be slow to react due to the nature of the stakeholders, and the stakeholders need to maintain public opinion.

If can get hands on ACL the long lease can be sold to a third party for a profit. Does it matter if it is owned by CCFC to do that - yes because if it was any profit would go to the football club not the investors. The purpose of the investment is to reward the investors not the club, If investors repaid then SISU are paid a commission

Get ACL in administration, buy shares for £1 do deal with bank to discount and take on loan. ACL to pay the loan, because we all know it can if tenants pay their rent, therefore no cost to SISU or their investors

Bring in insolvency professionals to safe guard what they are doing and charge it to the football club because "protecting the football club trade"

SISU can cloud and delay the issue further in many ways - negotiate to acquire some shares (but knowing 50% in of no use so it is not for real), can PR campaign to keep fans on side make claims as to what is going on "average L1 rent" "debt free" "community club" "move elsewhere wont be held to ransom" "loans equitised" "look at the community work we plan" etc etc etc, carry on regardless knowing ACL will be slow to react and reluctant to take action.

Have well placed press leaks to weaken ACL, speak to ACL's advisors and bank , create a crisis for ACL by starving it of cash but also by influencing bank and advisors.

All the time the clock will click and it will become harder for for ACL to operate to meet its bills.
Of course if ACL could use the stadium in a different way they could perhaps create other income streams but by sitting there SISU via CCFC stop that and ensure no replacement income.

Having planned all this 9 months at least ago then they are ahead of the game, have things in place (remember changes of ownership and cayman isles, Arvo charge on assets etc), ACL not used to these situations and playing catch up when there is no time to learn

ACL always on back foot and because of the stakeholders have to be seen to be transparent in their actions - SISU dont have to be

Tell the fans what they want to know, please yourself what is actually done because anything that happens in accounts for 2013 wont become public until February 2014 earliest. Can be gone by then

and as luck (real bonus in all this and could not have been relied upon like the other things)would have it turn up the right man for the job to lead the team and give SISU something to hide behind, something to tell the fans is at risk if rent not sorted

Sell on the development rights to a major developer, leaving CCFC a tenant and few if any assets, Charity and Council with £13m in losses between them, and walk away having recovered a major part of the loans (dont forget the loans are only part of a much bigger fund so profits and losses on individual investments tend to get lost in the wash). It is the development potential that will be for sale, the club etc will be pretty irrelevant.

Sound familiar or reasonable ?

That is just some of it but if you put yourself in SISU's position does it seem to be fantasy? Tell you what if i was in their shoes it is what I would do - luckily however I am not and can look people in the eye knowing they will trust me.

it is of course all just my opinion

right now I hope i am wrong ....... but somehow I do not think I am

oldskyblue58 said:

they still have options SBJ - will they agree and pay the rent anytime soon ? No i dont think they will because that takes the pressure off ACL for a while..... if i am right in their objective why would they do that, why cause all these problems and not follow through.

These people are used to going right to the brink before doing any deal. There is still time. ACL have said no decision on action before January..... if winding up order served I would guess that leaves 6 weeks before in court, if not challenged. If they get to court there could be a challenge and drag it out further........ all the time ACL is being starved of funds, Yorkshire bank gets v twitchy, increased risk of ACL going into Administration, SISU make sure all other creditors are paid ..........

Or

agree a deal and then default again. And on that subject why would ACL Council & Charity believe that CCFC wouldnt default again, what is to stop them. If they did then the process starts again doesnt it and all the time ACL is starved of money ..... and it is the lack of money that will kill it - SISU know this

Do they have other options than paying the rent - yes

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In short they are utter bastards who are once again leaving a God awful ongoing mess behind the scenes for the team and fan base to live with. Then they wonder why 000's are still staying away.

If the council/ACL had the balls to actually issue the winding up order in the new year what options could CCFC/SISU have? I assume there is a few weeks in which moves can be made. WOuld they have to pay rent or fold? Would control of CCFC go to liquidator immediately? Could they go for some form of self governed administration like a pre-pack? Could this right off the rent debt and possibly break the exisiting contract as that would be with the old company. Admin at 9.00 relaunch CCFC (2012) in afternoon, debt free, contract free, 10 points down but the football club is a minor consideration in all this and continues to starve ACL of funds. Maybe I am being too simplistic as I am no expert on these matters but have worked for a company that did a pre-pack and it seems an option but could council/ACL head off such a move?

nuckythompson said:

If the council/ACL had the balls to actually issue the winding up order in the new year what options could CCFC/SISU have? I assume there is a few weeks in which moves can be made. WOuld they have to pay rent or fold? Would control of CCFC go to liquidator immediately? Could they go for some form of self governed administration like a pre-pack? Could this right off the rent debt and possibly break the exisiting contract as that would be with the old company. Admin at 9.00 relaunch CCFC (2012) in afternoon, debt free, contract free, 10 points down but the football club is a minor consideration in all this and continues to starve ACL of funds. Maybe I am being too simplistic as I am no expert on these matters but have worked for a company that did a pre-pack and it seems an option but could council/ACL head off such a move?

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Am no expert but IIRC the league share the player registration and ACL lease are in CCFC, so the only legal way of getting out of the lease is to kill the club,by doing that they lose the clubs name ,and only secure a couple of million for themselves through ARVO.

oldskyblue58 said:

right now I hope i am wrong ....... but somehow I do not think I am

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I could not agree more OSB and those who believe sisu are here for the benefit of CCFC are as you have previously said ' I think those who believe it is all about the rent and what is best for the club are just a little naiive'

Yet assuming ACL were to go into administration surely there is every likelyhood that there would be a queue of interested parties looking to buy ACL on the cheap not just sisu.

It is a possibility that a third party might aquire ACL and not sisu. Sisu's investors would be screwed and so would CCFC

cloughie said:

I could not agree more OSB and those who believe sisu are here for the benefit of CCFC are as you have previously said ' I think those who believe it is all about the rent and what is best for the club are just a little naiive'

Yet assuming ACL were to go into administration surely there is evry likelyhood that there would be A queue of interested parties looking to buy ACL on the cheap not just sisu.

It is a possibility that a third party might aquire ACL and not sisu. Sisu's investors would be screwed and so would CCFC

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NEC group??
Edit: Compass??

wingy said:

NEC group??
Edit: Compass??

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NEC group could buy it to burn it down and take out the opposition!

I wonder if by clever movement between the myriad of company's they have created in this whole web they can separate the different parts etc but also at the end of the day the whole object of this exercise is to get hold of the stadium complex at a knock down price and flog it on - the fate and potential demise of a loss making football club is of very little interest to them. Also sure the Football Leage would bend over backwards (as they have with Pompey) to ensure the clubs survival in some form or other. So whilst ARVO might only realise a million or so the continued starvation of funds to ACL will eventually get them what they want at whatever cost to the citizens of Cov, fans of the football team and the childrens charity.

wingy said:

NEC group??
Edit: Compass??

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Exactly right Wingy and others

seems to me either way CCFC are going to get shafted in the long term and there will only be one company that will have caused ACL and CCFC down this road to oblivion.

But of course they have the best interest of CCFC at heart:facepalm:

In all of this you can probably bet your last dollar that the core directors at SISU will not lose any money only credibility, it will be the trusting investors that take the hit and Joyless and her crowd will move on to the next project blaming the general economic downturn. Meanwhile the 7th largest City in England is left to pick up the pieces and without their 129 year old football club.

That is why what happens to the ownership of the loan that ACL has is so important cloughie. If say SISU could acquire it before ACl went into administration they they would be in control and influence who bought ACL.

As for "pre pack" nt i would have thought a definite option. This will not be a simple or normal administration hence all the high powered advisors said to be involved

The biggest problem with all this is the two protagonists = in the red corner SISU who do this kind of thing day in day out, destroying companies by any means necessary, fair or foul, to buy them at knock down price - have massive experience of every nasty trick in the book and in the blue corner basically the council and a charity who have no experience of this type of battle and because of the various legal constraints on them have to play by the rules and therefore are slow to react. Its like a seasoned dirty mixed martial arts street fighter against a classical Queensbury rules pugilist.

Ashdown1 said:

In all of this you can probably bet your last dollar that the core directors at SISU will not lose any money only credibility, it will be the trusting investors that take the hit and Joyless and her crowd will move on to the next project blaming the general economic downturn. Meanwhile the 7th largest City in England is left to pick up the pieces and without their 129 year old football club.

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I think those trusting investors have already been sidelined Ashdown.
The setting up of ARVO seemed to signify a seperate source of Income ,more of a personal investment ,Huntsman family anyone??:thinking about:

oldskyblue58 said:

That is why what happens to the ownership of the loan that ACL has is so important cloughie. If say SISU could acquire it before ACl went into administration they they would be in control and influence who bought ACL.

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Just a thought OSB
Is it possible the council and/or Higgs buy the loan with a short term veiw to secure ACL and then sell onto a preferred bidder ?

oldskyblue58 said:

That is why what happens to the ownership of the loan that ACL has is so important cloughie. If say SISU could acquire it before ACl went into administration they they would be in control and influence who bought ACL.

As for "pre pack" nt i would have thought a definite option. This will not be a simple or normal administration hence all the high powered advisors said to be involved

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So there would be major implications for the future of the Ricoh project as a whole. How can Compass influence what's going on?

cloughie said:

Just a thought OSB
Is it possible the council and/or Higgs buy the loan with a short term veiw to secure ACL and then sell onto a preferred bidder ?

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Yes but do they have the money and legal authority to do that ?

Brighton Sky Blue said:

So there would be major implications for the future of the Ricoh project as a whole. How can Compass influence what's going on?

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Not sure if they can ...... or need to .......... but if their own income streams under threat perhaps they could take the ACL bank loan on, unless SISU gave them reason not to. lot of shady dealing going on behind the scenes BSB all fuelled by self interest so anything is possible

oldskyblue58 said:

If SISU get ACL via administration do not expect CCFC to own ACL or the lease from the Council. Ownership will be in SBS&L because that is where SISU clients have their loans. So that when the site is sold on the loans are repaid and very little chance of CCFC ever owning the ground. SISU clients repaid and CCFC still a tenant but only paying £200k for now ..... of course there might be review clauses that a new owner can take advantage of in a new lease negotiated between SISU and CCFC prior to disposal

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A point I've raised on here before - and therefore a fine one to reinforce

People get very confused - rightfully I guess given the labyrinthine nature of the club's associated finances - and assume that if 'SISU' own the asset, that means CCFC own/would benefit from the asset :facepalm:

Well put simply, we'll know by Boxing Day who has blinked first. Personally sick to the teeth of TF's spin and actions which have turned this into the farce it has become.

oldskyblue58 said:

If you are paying Godiva i will be drinking

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This morning I am pretty sorry you didn't drank half the bottle ...

The scenario you propose is quite complicated and key elements is pretty uncertain.
For instance - one key element is pushing ACL into administration and take it over for next to nothing. If ACL get to that point I would expect other investors could be interested and the price would be pushed up. If so, there will be no quick profit for sisu and no repayment to the funds.
And even if sisu did manage to obtain ACL for a quid and with a discounted bank loan, the sell-on profit sisu could achieve would not be anywhere enough to cover the £40m+ loans.


One thing that keeps popping up in my head is what Fischer said about converting the loans to equity. That is surely not something he just said out of the blue.
I am sure this is actually going to happen, but is probably awaiting a settlement of the rent dispute.
When it happens it will mean the funds write off their loans and I suspect in the proces sisu will acquire a healty portion of the new shares for themself. And THAT could be a key element to sisu's exit strategy.
It is a much more simple plan than the one you propose and it will be sisu who profit from it - not the funds.

For the shares to have any value the club needs a healthy balance sheet and a profitabel operation going forward. If the loans are gone, the balance sheet is cleaned up. If the rent comes down and matchday income is added then I think the club is close to break-even. Get promoted and profit is achieved. Stay in L1 and cut wages with an additional £1m and profit is achieved.

... and now I have to go buy some Aspirin.

Do you know, you read this, and it's a microcosm of what's so frustrating about those who sheepishly follow the rent debate, and bleat about a 'fair League One / Championship' rental - whatever.

Fisher himself claims, in his Telegraph interview in April, that SISU have been responsible for 'investing £40m'. Even if we'd have been playing at the Ricoh rent-free; and clearing match-day income, by Fisher's own sums the club would still have lost £30m+. This is about so, so much more than the rent on the Ricoh; and if fans think that the football club will ever benefit from this posturing, they're deluded.

It's about sugar-coating an exit-strategy for an investment that's gone badly wrong

Whilst your scenario has plausibility Godiva the problem is timescale - even spinmeister Fisher has talked about a 3 year break even timescale and does that sound like the sort of timescale a hedge fund would work under? And they would have to keep making up the losses for the next two years - I think Joy has had enough of putting money into CCFC and its the stadium complex at any cost as an exit strategy. As OSB said one of the key elements is the control of the Yorkshire Bank loan - whoever is in control of that in effect can control the whole shooting match. I think the new year is going to get very dirty and nasty.

Godiva said:

If ACL get to that point I would expect other investors could be interested and the price would be pushed up

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Not an incorrect assertion, but pushed up to a lower value than if the prime tenant wasn't so machiavellian. So, the value will be either nominal, or depressed. Neither a bad output for Joy and her team

Godiva said:

... and now I have to go buy some Aspirin.

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That was just the summary Godiva i kept it as simple as possible! Too much drinking gives you hangovers yanno :laugh: