Any news on the rent (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter coop
- Start date
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
CJ amongst others will then be really cross because ACL won't have gotten their money.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
doubt anything will happen this side of the new year. Even when or if it does it will still take time, thats even without SISU having taken defensive action - which no doubt they have. Long way to go yet and dont expect a settlement on the rent soon either
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Him and sky blue John will probably fire bomb Sisu HQ in protest. As I am a Sisu muppet ill stay out of my office in Mayfair that day.
coundonskyblue
New Member
Whatever your opinion on this I'm sure we all agree it needs sorting ASAP, and it needs to be a deal which secures the future of both parties.
Both ACL & CCFC need to be viable so we dont end up here again in 18 months time.
Both ACL & CCFC need to be viable so we dont end up here again in 18 months time.
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
we prob wont have agreed the rent in 18 months time
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
thats the fans view csb but i really dont think it is going to happen the way many fans want it to. Never has been about the rent - that is just a sideshow to what is going on. Certainly isnt about pleasing the fans it never has been. This is about cold hard business and money, rent savings are a small part of it
coundonskyblue
New Member
What do you think is going to be the most likely outcome of alll this?
swanageskyblue
New Member
The optimistic part of me still thinks that SISU are going to turn all Santa-like and deliver us a rent deal and a McGoldrick deal on Christmas Day. Having managed down our expectations to such low levels, they may even hope to become popular by doing so!
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
difficult to say csb
- winding up order ? unlikely that any court date will be before end of January
- rent paid by CCFC before court date ? unlikely because i dont believe that is part of SISU's plan
- ACL ? well take £1.4m (and rising) out of any company's cashflow and it is going to hurt a lot - and it is the cashflow that is causing the damage not the loss of profit. The loss of cashflow is what gives SISU leverage by using the bank against their own client. Their bank will put pressure on them to settle and other things - but can they if SISU wont settle the rent? It will be difficult to pay bills but also loan agreements are full of default clauses (not just non payment) that SISU will help create circumstances for. Any action they ACL take will be criticised by a lot of fans if it is construed that it has affected team performance or the ability to sign players we want
- attitudes? will harden amongst the fans but also amongst the Council, from what I gather SISU's attitude has brought all sides of the Council together in a manner that rarely happens. SISU's attitude wont change, they remain hard nosed money people
- Team ? will do well for now but if unable to sign players then may struggle more
All results are still possible. I might have it all wrong and they settle the rent tomorrow but somehow that doesnt really fit with what has been going on. One thing is certain in my opinion it will not end amicably and a lot of bridges are being burnt. Would the Council ever trust a Company that took its investment down. Would the council ever sell the freehold or lease to SISU not being able to trust that they will continue investment in the regeneration of North Coventry - unlikely, Leopards do not change their spots.
At the moment it is all on a knife edge and I fear one if not both the club and ACL might well be a casualty.
But that i have been told is me letting my imagination and conspiracy theory running away with itself. I think those who believe it is all about the rent and what is best for the club are just a little naiive - but thats just my opinion
- winding up order ? unlikely that any court date will be before end of January
- rent paid by CCFC before court date ? unlikely because i dont believe that is part of SISU's plan
- ACL ? well take £1.4m (and rising) out of any company's cashflow and it is going to hurt a lot - and it is the cashflow that is causing the damage not the loss of profit. The loss of cashflow is what gives SISU leverage by using the bank against their own client. Their bank will put pressure on them to settle and other things - but can they if SISU wont settle the rent? It will be difficult to pay bills but also loan agreements are full of default clauses (not just non payment) that SISU will help create circumstances for. Any action they ACL take will be criticised by a lot of fans if it is construed that it has affected team performance or the ability to sign players we want
- attitudes? will harden amongst the fans but also amongst the Council, from what I gather SISU's attitude has brought all sides of the Council together in a manner that rarely happens. SISU's attitude wont change, they remain hard nosed money people
- Team ? will do well for now but if unable to sign players then may struggle more
All results are still possible. I might have it all wrong and they settle the rent tomorrow but somehow that doesnt really fit with what has been going on. One thing is certain in my opinion it will not end amicably and a lot of bridges are being burnt. Would the Council ever trust a Company that took its investment down. Would the council ever sell the freehold or lease to SISU not being able to trust that they will continue investment in the regeneration of North Coventry - unlikely, Leopards do not change their spots.
At the moment it is all on a knife edge and I fear one if not both the club and ACL might well be a casualty.
But that i have been told is me letting my imagination and conspiracy theory running away with itself. I think those who believe it is all about the rent and what is best for the club are just a little naiive - but thats just my opinion
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Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it be the same with other owners that are backed by a corporation.
coundonskyblue
New Member
Do you think Tim Fishers pride is now a stumbling block?
On the radio he stated he was correct in what he is doing, he wouldn't give in to bullies, he wants a league 1 average rent, etc. If he backs down now and takes ACL's 400k offer, he is going to look a bit foolish after all his macho talk.
I cant help but think he's back himself into a corner and now cant get out.
Why does it have to be an issue??Its a difference of £200K. max,If Sisu Chose to remove the Arvo charge on Ryton they could mortgage it for a third time ,Why hav'nt they done that ??
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I dont think this is about Fisher at all ..... he is just the smooth front man.... the soft public face. It is Seppala that is pulling all the strings. Our Tim will be able to console himself with a success bonus at the end of it if it goes Seppalas way. He can walk away and never bother about CCFC again - comfort his ego with the bonus
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
not saying it wouldnt be the same SBT - I am just telling it as I see it not taking sides as such. It is business and sometimes it gets very dirty, Hedge fund, Limited company or public body, it would be the same description.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
thats part of the point wingy ........ just how much do people think all these consultants and specialists are costing? Yes i know it wouldnt be every year but this should be a partnership going forward (forget the past) get a reasonable rent and promote the team and the city. There is so much that doesnt make sense if it is just a difference of rent valuation and staging repayment of a legal debt
Did you call dear?
Actually I am pleased you have now adjusted to my long standing point -> the risk of them both going down. Somehow I find there's simply not enough money to feed them both. And if so, I'd rather ccfc survive.
It may not be all about the rent, but few plans are carried out in one move. So for now, the next step is all about the rent. With that settled next step will be to finally get to break-even - probably in 2013 (further reduced cost if still in league 1 next season (FFP regulation), or increased income if promoted).
ACL will have to improve their business as well, or sell thir shares to the club at a reasonable price ... which is not even remotely close to £12m. Especially if their profit turns to loss due to the lower rent agreement with the club.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
When did i say there wasn't a risk to both exactly ?
Been a CCFC fan all my life last thing I want to see is my club go to the wall. But do i trust SISU to safeguard promote and secure a city of coventry asset no. Do i think the club should have the match day income yes - do they have a right to anything else no. They want anything else buy it, do a deal
FFP next season in L1 is 50% so unless we do get promoted this season we have already kissed the rent saving away assuming same wage structure and similar income
The rent is the tool not the step but i guess we will have to disagree on that
I do not see why folk in general believe that CCFC or ACL sit on their hands and do not improve their operations and cost structures. ACL for example could cut out duplication of staff with Compass, rejig the loan, etc. What CCFC could do is to take all cost saving seriously not just pick and choose if they are serious about viability, biggest cost is now all football related.
Sell shares at a reasonable value ?............ this isnt going to be sold at a reasonable value the only way it will change hands with SISU is at a heavily discounted distressed value - that is what it is all about! And i mean 100% not 50% of ACL
Been a CCFC fan all my life last thing I want to see is my club go to the wall. But do i trust SISU to safeguard promote and secure a city of coventry asset no. Do i think the club should have the match day income yes - do they have a right to anything else no. They want anything else buy it, do a deal
FFP next season in L1 is 50% so unless we do get promoted this season we have already kissed the rent saving away assuming same wage structure and similar income
The rent is the tool not the step but i guess we will have to disagree on that
I do not see why folk in general believe that CCFC or ACL sit on their hands and do not improve their operations and cost structures. ACL for example could cut out duplication of staff with Compass, rejig the loan, etc. What CCFC could do is to take all cost saving seriously not just pick and choose if they are serious about viability, biggest cost is now all football related.
Sell shares at a reasonable value ?............ this isnt going to be sold at a reasonable value the only way it will change hands with SISU is at a heavily discounted distressed value - that is what it is all about! And i mean 100% not 50% of ACL
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I wouldnt mind betting that TF budgeted for more than the FFP of 65% say 75 or 80% on the hope success would make it ok ...... would partly explain the haste to get rid of a manager after 3 games. I would also bet that he budgeted for a rent of £200k when he budgeted for a £3m loss this year.
Again possibly part of the reason for the intransigence.A rent of £200k. v £1.2m. out of turnover would impact FFP ,we may have been breaking it already.:thinking about:
Ah, this wasn't actually a dig at you ... I wish you could have shared the bottle of Amarone 2003 I have enjoyed tonight. It maybe lifted my spirit a little more than usual.
Anyway ... I have placed a few comments below.
Anyway ... I have placed a few comments below.
CJparker
New Member
CCFC's failures are not ACL's responsibility. They have done nothing wrong.
CCFC/SISU have not got a leg to stand on when asking for a "league one average rent" - the Ricoh is not an average League One ground, and the rent is not variable by league position. SISU/CCFC are responsible for our low league position and financial plight, they should not be looking to ACL to help them mitigate their losses by taking a hit themselves.
I for one hope we continue to pay the full rent like good little boys. The attitudes of some on here make me sick, as do SISU's hardball actions. For Fisher to complain of "bullying" tactics is beyond a joke - CCFC are in breach of contract, not ACL.
CCFC/SISU have not got a leg to stand on when asking for a "league one average rent" - the Ricoh is not an average League One ground, and the rent is not variable by league position. SISU/CCFC are responsible for our low league position and financial plight, they should not be looking to ACL to help them mitigate their losses by taking a hit themselves.
I for one hope we continue to pay the full rent like good little boys. The attitudes of some on here make me sick, as do SISU's hardball actions. For Fisher to complain of "bullying" tactics is beyond a joke - CCFC are in breach of contract, not ACL.
Otis
Well-Known Member
We need a club that is sustainable though.
If a rent can be agreed on that causes no side to fold or be able to function properly then that can only be a good thing.
A million isn't sustainable.
Were it me, I would take the 400,000 offer and then try and re-negotiate further. As it stands at the mo it's just intransigence. Only ACL seem to have moved in the right direction here, with the 67% reduction and ten years to pay off the arrears.
I know 200,000 is the aim, but I would take the 400,000 offer and try and re-negotiate further, rather than have this High Noon stand-off.
If a rent can be agreed on that causes no side to fold or be able to function properly then that can only be a good thing.
A million isn't sustainable.
Were it me, I would take the 400,000 offer and then try and re-negotiate further. As it stands at the mo it's just intransigence. Only ACL seem to have moved in the right direction here, with the 67% reduction and ten years to pay off the arrears.
I know 200,000 is the aim, but I would take the 400,000 offer and try and re-negotiate further, rather than have this High Noon stand-off.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
But if we accept an offer, we can't renegotiate straight away, if we're being realistic here.
They'll be a compromise I'm sure of it.
Otis
Well-Known Member
I accept that.
We need to keep the club going though in the short term. Could we not just accept the 400,000 and see where we are in the Summer?
I mean, could be we're back in the Championship with much bigger gates and more money coming into the club. Pay the 400,000 now and in the Summer then talk about moving grounds or whatever. We can still do the background work now behind the scenes on contingency plans.
The Hinckley thing is a joke. If we were to go up we'd be getting crowds of around 13,000 -14,000.
The key for us is success on the pitch!!
We need to keep the club going though in the short term. Could we not just accept the 400,000 and see where we are in the Summer?
I mean, could be we're back in the Championship with much bigger gates and more money coming into the club. Pay the 400,000 now and in the Summer then talk about moving grounds or whatever. We can still do the background work now behind the scenes on contingency plans.
The Hinckley thing is a joke. If we were to go up we'd be getting crowds of around 13,000 -14,000.
The key for us is success on the pitch!!
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
ericagradus
New Member
If a rent reduction is agreed and we stay at the Ricoh. Then this will need to be documented i.e.A deed of variation to the current lease. What concerns me is that for the majority of law firms around the country offices shut tomorrow and re open on either the 27th or 2nd. So tomorrow is the last day if lawyers are involved and the deal is to be done.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
The majority are closed till the 02nd
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
If you are paying Godiva i will be drinking
Yes i have said they can survive without...... but that didnt include having a sitting tenant paying no rent, so being unable to put in alternative income streams for 9 months or more. A double whammy really dont want to bring CCFC down but cant bring in any possible new streams because CCFC need the stadium as a priority to fulfill their fixtures and stay in the league. Cleft stick. That has been used against ACL and they fell for it. It isnt the profit it is the cashflow that is doing the damage, ACL had the cash balance to begin with to cover it with expectation of reaching an agreement but at some point the cash (not the profits ) runs out and still no agreement in sight. Clever game by SISU
SISU secured CCFC as a city asset? ........ no not really on a number of levels. CCFC is a private company for starters with owners who have no affiliation to Coventry. The owners have loaded the club with massive debt. The owners have actually taken the club from the brink of extinction to ,....... you guessed it the brink of extinction. Given the club, indeed the group, have massive debt and negative reserves how exactly do they get any return out of the club in the next 10 years that doesnt add more loss? Very long term work in progress on your terms. Just to name some levels
FFP - everyone seems to think that the calculation covers all player wages, it doesnt. It also doesnt cover any other (non player ) wages. Next year we will need to drop the budget from 4.2m to something like £3.3m. Assuming that TF already budgeted for a rent drop this year then minimum losses without player sales is going to be £2m - but the crowds will be better? not if we dont push for promotion again, can we hang on to or even get some of the players we have now, perhaps more importantly can we hang on to MR. There are going to be new costs this year to finance (professional fees or interest on the ARVO debt rolled up for example) that will need to be financed which will add interest to ARVO. Break even at any football club is not going to be easy, it might be my or your aim but can it be done without player sales (which affect morale and performance) ? probably not have we got those big sales to make ?
Tool or step like I say we disagree but it is all opinion
FFP 1) drive for promotion - I would hope so other clubs are doing it on much less budgets etc 2) SISU have never been bothered about what the fans think their driver is money pure and simple 3) Squad too thin ? yes it was but is 37 players on the payroll prudent or desirable (how many are actually used regularly or pushing first team? ) Have we laden the club with liability and loss because of it ?
Shares - no I doubt the shares are for sale but the object of the SISU plan is not to buy them in some open market agreement ......... its to get them (100% not 50%) at an artificial value driven down by them by distressing ACL to the point of administration ...... at which point they could get for £1 from administrators (shaft a charity and council in doing so) take over a discounted loan in ACL from Yorkshire Bank, "save" the company which would then pay the loan..... Charity and Council wont get a choice about the value of their shares - only way out for them is to put in a better bid. Net cost of getting hold of ACL for SISU could be.............. £1.
will keep saying it ..... this is not about the rent or driving CCFC costs down.......... savings are a bi product of what is going on.
Hedge funds are driven by money not social conscience and their time frames are short not even medium term............. JS has been very successful operating hedge funds despite what people might think from recent results, why would she change the way she operates? ........... we need to remember that
Yes i have said they can survive without...... but that didnt include having a sitting tenant paying no rent, so being unable to put in alternative income streams for 9 months or more. A double whammy really dont want to bring CCFC down but cant bring in any possible new streams because CCFC need the stadium as a priority to fulfill their fixtures and stay in the league. Cleft stick. That has been used against ACL and they fell for it. It isnt the profit it is the cashflow that is doing the damage, ACL had the cash balance to begin with to cover it with expectation of reaching an agreement but at some point the cash (not the profits ) runs out and still no agreement in sight. Clever game by SISU
SISU secured CCFC as a city asset? ........ no not really on a number of levels. CCFC is a private company for starters with owners who have no affiliation to Coventry. The owners have loaded the club with massive debt. The owners have actually taken the club from the brink of extinction to ,....... you guessed it the brink of extinction. Given the club, indeed the group, have massive debt and negative reserves how exactly do they get any return out of the club in the next 10 years that doesnt add more loss? Very long term work in progress on your terms. Just to name some levels
FFP - everyone seems to think that the calculation covers all player wages, it doesnt. It also doesnt cover any other (non player ) wages. Next year we will need to drop the budget from 4.2m to something like £3.3m. Assuming that TF already budgeted for a rent drop this year then minimum losses without player sales is going to be £2m - but the crowds will be better? not if we dont push for promotion again, can we hang on to or even get some of the players we have now, perhaps more importantly can we hang on to MR. There are going to be new costs this year to finance (professional fees or interest on the ARVO debt rolled up for example) that will need to be financed which will add interest to ARVO. Break even at any football club is not going to be easy, it might be my or your aim but can it be done without player sales (which affect morale and performance) ? probably not have we got those big sales to make ?
Tool or step like I say we disagree but it is all opinion
FFP 1) drive for promotion - I would hope so other clubs are doing it on much less budgets etc 2) SISU have never been bothered about what the fans think their driver is money pure and simple 3) Squad too thin ? yes it was but is 37 players on the payroll prudent or desirable (how many are actually used regularly or pushing first team? ) Have we laden the club with liability and loss because of it ?
Shares - no I doubt the shares are for sale but the object of the SISU plan is not to buy them in some open market agreement ......... its to get them (100% not 50%) at an artificial value driven down by them by distressing ACL to the point of administration ...... at which point they could get for £1 from administrators (shaft a charity and council in doing so) take over a discounted loan in ACL from Yorkshire Bank, "save" the company which would then pay the loan..... Charity and Council wont get a choice about the value of their shares - only way out for them is to put in a better bid. Net cost of getting hold of ACL for SISU could be.............. £1.
will keep saying it ..... this is not about the rent or driving CCFC costs down.......... savings are a bi product of what is going on.
Hedge funds are driven by money not social conscience and their time frames are short not even medium term............. JS has been very successful operating hedge funds despite what people might think from recent results, why would she change the way she operates? ........... we need to remember that
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