clint van damme
Well-Known Member
It's definitely not clear, nothing in this saga is, apart from there will be no new ground.
That's abundantly clear.
abstaining fans (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter matesx
- Start date
It's definitely not clear, nothing in this saga is, apart from there will be no new ground.
That's abundantly clear.
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
Would you like to respond with some direct comments in relation to the post? Your comments seem to be insults with no explanations as to what I have said that is not correct. If the way I write frustrated you I am sorry but it's a view that you are very welcome to disagree with or challenge.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
You really are an absoluter buffoon who clearly can't see when you're being as dense as a toad, without the intellect. The insults are only in response to your own and if you can't see them, you're a clueless halfwit.
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
I get the sense yourself and northern wisdom could have taken my comments personally. If the cap fits ware it or share it between you.
You state that decisions have been made in a way that you feel they can't be changed?
Why not?
Do you think abstaining now in 2019 given what we know is objectively justified?
If so pleased to hear why.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
Oh the irony.
CanadianCCFC
Well-Known Member
He has more than 1 right. Not sure why that’s relevant.
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
I have not insulted anyone specifically. You seem to be (again). I would be happy to measure my dense as a toad iq over yours any day of the week.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
Feel I might have touched the fragile ego of a person with a chronic superiority complex. I respect your view and don't feel the need to call you names.
Your comments are playground level and i remember from my school days that those who utilise insults and resort to name calling are usually those who lack the comprehension to make a more reasoned argument.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
The whole point is you don't respect others' view. Instead you make horrendously pompous denigrating statements.
More troublingly, you also appear to be unable to see this.
I'lkl make a reasoned argument to those who deserve one.
Sky Blue Harry H
Well-Known Member
Negative Spurs fans on Radio 5. New super stadium and 'the end of the world' because they lost at Leicester. That said, one 'funny' Spurs fan moaning at the equivalent of the 'prawn sandwich' brigade that follow them (as opposed to the working class folk.
Tommo1993
Well-Known Member
Given what we know? Not sure what any one St Andrews follower would know more of than someone who doesn’t. 2013 I think was the the start of their new stadium plan, with ZERO fruition 6 years on. Think people will blindly follow another “temporary” relocation in another City, based on nothing but hope that the European Commission will find something naughty that our shareholders served domestic courts with time and again - and were thrown out likewise?
If you need to tell us fans who don’t go that you’re a real fan just to make you feel better, then the problem really is yours. I’ll ‘abstain’, as you call it, until I see genuine progress on getting us back to that new fairytale stadium in Coventry.
Check item 2 of your initial comment regarding IQ’s. Personally I’m not insulted, the ignorance made me laugh. But if you think that kind of comment works as encouragement to get more people to Birmingham, then you’re more daft than your post suggested.
In the very vast majority of cases, from what I’ve seen, those of us who do not go have come to accept that people are going to SA. But I’m still seeing plenty of resentment from the other side of the fence. I’m afraid the superiority complex is certainly yours. :emoji_thumbsup:
rockdude101
Active Member
Wasps bought the stadium in 2014. SISU have been deliberately mismanaging the club since 2007.
SISU stated withholding rent in 2012. The court's verdict on this action is clearly damning:
“Sisu distressed the financial position of ACL by refusing to pay ACL any rent or licence fee,” the judge found. “... It had the effect of reducing the value of the share in ACL that Sisu coveted. Sisu’s strategy of distressing ACL’s financial position ... was quite deliberate.”
Wasps came into the picture - the courts have repeatedly found that all action taken by CCC and Wasps were found to be above board. So as the clock ran down on the contract negotiated when city returned from Northampton, SISU again, deliberately took action to ensure we would not be playing at Ricoh.
SISU have acted in bad faith since the very start.
Wasps and CCC have stated they will talk on the condition that SISU stop this wild goose chase. SISU have yet to understand that if they want to buy any land in Coventry to build this phantom stadium they will need to talk to the group they are currently complaining against to the EC. You know if someone is constantly taking me to court, (while repeatedly losing) and then comes up to me asking to buy my land, do you know, I don't think my reply would be very friendly. Funny that.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
So you are suggesting the council will act illegally on the basis that they are worried they may get found out by an EU Investigation?
That’s some accusation. Do you have any evidence?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Keep up, that was their old demand. The club met that so they changed it.
rockdude101
Active Member
That's a strawman.
Like I said, they acted in bad faith and are surprised that Wasps replied in kind?
Skybluemichael
Well-Known Member
When was ccfc offered the stadium for £5mill + ACL debit, we was never offered that good a deal but an out of town rugby club was was
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
More is known about Wasps and CCC's cosy relationship than in 2013. The Council have proved they resent SISU and in turn have turned their back on the cities premier sporting club. If you dispute this please say why? Regardless, I support the players and the club. See Bolton, Bury and other high profile examples of what can happen. It does not make me better if I go to games but there can be zero debate if we do end up like Bolton I will not be a liable as the abstaining fans in brining about this eventuality. On the list with those fans would clesrly be Wasps the council and Sisu. You decide the order. 2019 SISU are in a corner thry have been backed into by others, most business organisations strongarmed like we have been has to reserve the right to make a counter stance in protest/retaliation at the treatment it is getting.
By abstaining it could be viewed you are indirectly siding with the alleged oppressors.
The item 2 iq comment is saying nothing more than, i hope people can change perspective in the face of new evidence. Much social science has proven, stubborn fixed thinking, unable to adapt type behaviours are associated with low iq individuals. Is that you, I doubt, but that is a fact. Maybe where we differ is I abstained from Northampton but feel the situation is sufficiently different now. You don't and that is your prerogative.
I want CCFC to promote and be a great club to follow for generations to come, I don't see staying away, cutting the oxygen (cash) supply is something in am prepared to do. You are and that once again is your choice.
I am dissapointed by SISU amd how they have handled the PR that in part has alienated some fans. But personally I look past this and make the that choice supporting the Team ie manager and players is something as a fan I can't not do.
I am far from superior and only made 1 remark personal in the face of many coming my way. But when a posters name is northern WISDOM It does suggest they feel they're wise. And self appointed titles of clever, wise, smart usually go hand in hand with a person who rates their own opinions a little too much. Maybe this is nothing but a surname but after reading this forum many years. The coincidiance would be spectacular.
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
It wasn't offered those terms. SISU had ruffled elected members and public servants feathers to the extent the Council sort revenge by bringing a franchise club into the City as a two fingers to sisu and in doing so the club. Even if state aid was not used, morally this was a very low blow and I am shocked if a fan on here does feel bitter that this was done.
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It’s a tough one. I personally refused to get a season ticket as it just felt wrong we were having to play outside the city again, even though I live in Birmingham so it’s about a third of the travel time. I did however accept that the circumstances were a little different to the sixfields debacle.
I’ve subsequently been to all the league games I could and watched a couple of others on ifollow. I’m weird I know.....but I’m literally torn !
I don’t have an issue with those choosing not to go and support their principles (wish I could be as strong)
If/when the EC complaint gets resolved then I would hope/expect SISU to agree to drop other court matters and seek a new lease at the Ricoh. If not, and there is no sign of a new stadium (let’s be honest, I’m not convinced there is any intention to build one), then I would have to re-evaluate.
I’ve subsequently been to all the league games I could and watched a couple of others on ifollow. I’m weird I know.....but I’m literally torn !
I don’t have an issue with those choosing not to go and support their principles (wish I could be as strong)
If/when the EC complaint gets resolved then I would hope/expect SISU to agree to drop other court matters and seek a new lease at the Ricoh. If not, and there is no sign of a new stadium (let’s be honest, I’m not convinced there is any intention to build one), then I would have to re-evaluate.
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ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
Who owns the land? The politicians don't, they supervise it for the tax paying residents who pay their wages.
Their remit is to create a prosperous city and that includes sporting clubs, not least as they bring in vital revenue for local businesses.
When a council is using it's position of power in any part due to personal reasons it is not acting within it's remit.
I think £1.3 million a year rent was distressing CCFC financially. And a councillor said there was still a route to ownership when we came back from Sixfields. Weeks later came the sale to wasps. That’s bad faith whether legal or not.
Go back to your wasps and council chums.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Endorse!!!!! No one is
Sisu have already agreed to drop court matters, iirc.
rockdude101
Active Member
This claim £1.3 million a year in rent was distressing CCFC finacially doesn't hold up when comparing the losses SISU amassed in chasing promotion. When we actually moved to the Ricoh we were a Championship club.
As stated by the courts: “Sisu had no strategy for maintaining a sustainable football club, except one which involved the purchase, at a knockdown price, of at least a 50% share in ACL and thus the Arena” and the purchase of ACL’s bank loan, also “at a knockdown price”. Trying to secure those aims at the lowest cost, Sisu stopped paying the rent, doing so for the last time in March 2012.
SISU's decision to stop paying rent was a deliberate move to buy the ground for a cheaper price, not because of the cost of the rent. SISU could have paid up the rent and then re-negotiated a deal matching then-current circumstances. It did not.
One councillor does not make up the entire council. Is it really any surprise that the Council lost trust in SISU?
SISU have acted in bad faith from the very start.
"Go back to your wasps and council chums"
How very friendly.
Except SISU is not a sporting club. It is a hedge fund. Prosperity also involves rejecting decisions that will hinder or harm. I believe SISU will harm as evidenced by their poor management of this football club.
Skybluemichael
Well-Known Member
So it’s fine for wasps to get the stadium for knockdown price but not us, the best we were offered was 50% for more then they got the hole thing for,
ccfc1234
Well-Known Member
Rockdude some merits in what you say about SISU and bad faith approaches. These tactics are quite common in most businesses transactions. Trying to gain a competitive advantage.
Where the issue becomes so very wrong is what the Council did as a result of our owners "acting in bad faith". They gave a sweetheart deal to an opportunist London sporting franchise. It was a deal we were not offered. Not withstanding the fact the organisation who did this were government ie who have a remit to look after the City and residents. Crucially, not a plc who can do what they like to whom they like.
These actions have put the club to a large extent in the situation we are now.
Where the issue becomes so very wrong is what the Council did as a result of our owners "acting in bad faith". They gave a sweetheart deal to an opportunist London sporting franchise. It was a deal we were not offered. Not withstanding the fact the organisation who did this were government ie who have a remit to look after the City and residents. Crucially, not a plc who can do what they like to whom they like.
These actions have put the club to a large extent in the situation we are now.
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
Ain't wasps also owned by a hedge fund? What makes that hedge fund so much more preferable r-dude?
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
They are also lying bastards let's not forget, academy nearly got displaced for a training facility that's never come to fruition, they haven't developed any of the land, they have fiddled income in their accounts and been found out. Wasps are no better than Sisu.
Skybluemichael
Well-Known Member
Let’s not forget wasps themselves valued the stadium at £48mill a year after buying for less then £20mill that’s not getting the best deal for the taxpayers
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
I agree, multiple shysters.
rockdude101
Active Member
Where is your citation for this claim? The courts have ruled that CCC and Wasps acted correctly - using independent valuers KPMG (Who are part of the Big 4 but not entirely clean themselves).
Again, where is your citation for the claim that CCC gave Wasps a "sweetheart" deal when it was valued independently by a Big Four firm, KPMG? SISU were using a different valuer, Strutt and Parker and came to a different value.
If your comment (And the one above) is about the £6.5million half share of the stadium that the AEHC owned, that SISU made no attempt to buy until after they started withholding rent and started negotiations with ACL to rent, was also reliant on the Council consenting that purchase. Is it really a surprise that after refusing to honor the original rent agreement and withheld rent, CCC had clearly lost trust in SISU and would not consent any such purchase?
I do not understand your comment regarding the residents and prosperity of the city?
The club is in the situation we are now because of mismanagement from SISU from the very start. Had they achieved promotion, we would not be in this situation. Had SISU re-negotiated the rental agreement before the deadline and without withholding the contractually agreed amounts, we would not be in this situation. Had SISU accepted any of the numerous court cases surrounding the sale of the stadium, we would not be in this situation. SISU is entirely responsible for this situation and their continued failure to address any of the problems in this situation will only result in further problems next year and for the foreseeable future.
A classic example of whataboutism. Entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
edit: whoops, pasting error by myself. Lol.
ohitsaidwalker king power
Well-Known Member
It might be argued that the councils position was a direct effect of SISU policy (Causal).. doesn't make it right I agree.
Alternatively Sisu policy could have been a direct effect of councils position.