Key points from the final day of the Judicial Review on the offal (1 Viewer)

Sub

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Here are the key points from the final day of the Judicial Review at Birmingham Crown Court today...
Coventry City Football Club’s Judicial Review against Coventry City Council moved into its third day at Birmingham Crown Court.


The Coventry City Council (CCC) QC started the day by continuing his case for defence before the ACL QC started the defence for ACL.


The SISU QC responded to the case for defence from both CCC and ACL before the Judge concluded by saying he will reserve his judgement until the week commencing the 30th June.


The key points are done in chronological order. The full court transcripts from the Judicial Review will be available at www.ccfc.co.uk tomorrow.


Here are the key points from the third day at the Judicial Review:-


- CCC QC started proceedings by continuing the case for defence. CCC QC said that the SISU QC had introduced new grounds for argument which aren’t covered by the pleaded case and therefore not admissible.


- CCC QC referred to a council presentation which said ‘CCFC stopped paying rent – unlawfully’ and said that the SISU QC failed to point this out. The SISU QC responds referring to another page in the presentation which he said showed ACL were misleading their councillors on the rent negotiations.


- CCC QC said that the decision to buy-out ACL’s debt made ‘commercial sense’ and the ACL statement that a private investor wouldn’t go over £5-6m to buy ACL’s debt with the Yorkshire Bank (YB), wasn’t a statement but said in negotiations with the YB.


- CCC QC says the escrow account which ACL took £500k out of when CCFC stopped paying rent was funded by the Football Association.


- CCC QC said that SISU hoped to get ACL into a ‘distressed financial position’ to gain an interest in the Ricoh Arena and that these were ‘damaging actions.’


- ACL QC stated the case for state aid defence for ACL after the CCC QC finished his submissions. ACL QC says this hearing isn’t a matter for the EU but a national court.


- ACL QC refers to a number of EU state aid cases. ACL QC refers to a previous stadiums case in Copenhagen, Denmark which the SISU QC raised on day two. ACL QC said that, ‘with respect, Copenhagen can’t be compared to Coventry’ and therefore the EU state law can’t be applied.


- SISU QC opened his response by saying the ACL shares were “underwater” and that there was no investment to protect. Coventry North Regeneration Limited had been repaid (in 2006) the £21m it had borrowed to fund the construction of the stadium.


- Judge suggested that the council was acting in the interest of a shareholder when the £14.4m council loan was made. SISU QC responded that the bank was in the position of having already lost its money and doing its best to recover the position. The council’s holding in ACL was negative equity and therefore wasn’t an asset worth protecting. It was in an entirely different position of being faced with letting the bank off the hook by putting public money in.


- SISU QC said that the council buy-out ‘sabotaged’ the rent talks with CCFC and the CCC was aware of this. This was in response to CCC QC’s submission that the council buy-out improved chances of a rent deal.


- SISU QC responds to the CCC QC’s submission that the rent deal ‘was dead.’ SISU QC raised e-mails which show rent negotiations where still taking place. SISU QC says Mr. Chris West and Mr. Harris were ‘running the show’ and they took the main decision to double the offer from £6m to £12m, despite clear financial advice from Pricewaterhouse Coopers that the value of the debt was £5-£6m


- SISU QC read out an e-mail from Mr Harris of Higgs that said “it would be difficult to get approval from the councillors if CCC increased the offer from £6m for the ACL debt with the YB”. SISU QC said that the e-mails show it would be ‘ridiculous’ to increase the offer for ACL’s YB loan. Judge says he understands the point.


- SISU QC questions Mr. Hastie’s independence following his financial report for CCC councillors on ACL and that he also helped write John Mutton’s speech to councillors. It was he says “unusual” for the independent advisor to also be the advocate for his own recommendation to the members.


- SISU QC said that it shouldn’t be a surprise that CCFC continued to try and secure a rent deal at the Ricoh Arena after the council loan deal was made. Judge says that CCFC were only interested in a deal which ‘provided them an interest in the Ricoh Arena.’ SISU QC responded by saying that CCFC were interested in a deal which provided them with match-day revenues, not an interest in the stadium. He recited that the issue which faced the Club was access to a share of revenue generated from the match days.


- SISU QC said that CCFC paid the highest rent in the Football League and got the lowest match-day revenues - ‘nothing.’


- SISU QC said that the EU state law cases show that where a loan to a stadium is concerned it is to be assumed that there will be an effect of competition and the documents cross that threshold easily, he needed take the matter further.


- SISU QC said the case clearly fully falls into EU state aid law and that Mr. West and Mr. Hastie should have considered that when deciding on the ACL debt buy-out.


Judge says he will hand the judgement down on the week commencing the 30th June.



Read more at http://www.ccfc.co.uk/news/article/...uncil-120614-1641484.aspx#bMshAqOehHFlibPT.99
 

ccfcway

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so, the keys points from day 3

5 from CCC
2 from ACL
2 from Judge
9 from SISU


:thinking about:
 
J

Jack Griffin

Guest
Key points day 1..
SISU 9
Judge 2
CCC 0

Key points day 2..
SISU 7
Judge 2
CCC 7



Absolutely impartial :whistle:
 

stupot07

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Mar 20, 2011
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I suppose in this case, the onus is on sisu to prove any wrong doing, not on ACL/ccc to prove they did nothing wrong. So really you would expect more from sisu, wouldn't you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 

skybluetony176

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I suppose in this case, the onus is on sisu to prove any wrong doing, not on ACL/ccc to prove they did nothing wrong. So really you would expect more from sisu, wouldn't you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)

In the context of dropping bombshells in court I was definitely expecting more from sisu.

Im the context of the "coverage" on the club site that was about what I was expecting.
 

SkyBlueScottie

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Mar 19, 2011
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The very nature of the case means Sisu will have more key points. How long did the SISU QC take when outlining the argument, probably double the amount of time that the Council and ACL took. The transcripts are available go away, read them then come back and highlight what you think they have missed rather than posting a whistling smiley.
 

Astute

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I don't see there being a so called win for any side. Labo has admitted so. He is on about a new stadium again. A stadium that don't make any sense in whatever way you look at it. If the judge rules in favour of SISU they don't get the freehold. If the judge rules in favour of CCC it don't bring our club home. CCC can't give SISU the unencumbered freehold that they demand. SISU don't seem to want to settle for anything less.

Bit shit really :mad:
 

Godiva

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Mar 23, 2011
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I don't see there being a so called win for any side. Labo has admitted so. He is on about a new stadium again. A stadium that don't make any sense in whatever way you look at it. If the judge rules in favour of SISU they don't get the freehold. If the judge rules in favour of CCC it don't bring our club home. CCC can't give SISU the unencumbered freehold that they demand. SISU don't seem to want to settle for anything less.

Bit shit really :mad:

Your last remark is quite an understatement.

But you say 'CCC can't give SISU the unencumbered freehold that they demand'.
First - I don't believe anyone other than CCC should own the freehold - unencumbered or otherwise!
Still, I wonder how financial secure are ACL really? Are they bleeding cash from a loss making operation? If so, how long have they got?
And should ACL fail, doesn't the freehold become unencumbered?
 

Astute

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Your last remark is quite an understatement.

But you say 'CCC can't give SISU the unencumbered freehold that they demand'.
First - I don't believe anyone other than CCC should own the freehold - unencumbered or otherwise!
Still, I wonder how financial secure are ACL really? Are they bleeding cash from a loss making operation? If so, how long have they got?
And should ACL fail, doesn't the freehold become unencumbered?

First-so you are saying that CCC should own the Freehold.

Second-you have swallowed the SISU line that ACL are losing money although there has never been any evidence of such. What about the independent audit as revealed in the JR that showed this to be false?

Third. Should ACL fail for any reason the leasehold would revert back to CCC unless bought out by the likes of SISU. But as you said you want the freehold to stay with CCC
 
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Sub

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Your last remark is quite an understatement.

But you say 'CCC can't give SISU the unencumbered freehold that they demand'.
First - I don't believe anyone other than CCC should own the freehold - unencumbered or otherwise!
Still, I wonder how financial secure are ACL really? Are they bleeding cash from a loss making operation? If so, how long have they got?
And should ACL fail, doesn't the freehold become unencumbered?

a bit like CCfC and SISU are bleeding cash with no fans and no sponsor and no ground to make money from already 50million lost and a prospect of another 30million when they build their magical stadium? i think SISU and CCFC are in a worse state than ACL:thinking about:which is not agood thing atall
 
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shmmeee

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Your last remark is quite an understatement.

But you say 'CCC can't give SISU the unencumbered freehold that they demand'.
First - I don't believe anyone other than CCC should own the freehold - unencumbered or otherwise!
Still, I wonder how financial secure are ACL really? Are they bleeding cash from a loss making operation? If so, how long have they got?
And should ACL fail, doesn't the freehold become unencumbered?

You wanna wait around in Northampton on an if but or maybe?

Why not just buy a lottery ticket each week to fund the new stadium?

Even if ACL are allowed to fail now (seriously unlikely) why on earth would the council sell to Sisu?

Can we stop taking these idiots seriously now please? They've obviously been taking the piss out of city fans for over a year now, they've got absolutely nothing. Let's stop pretending they're reasonable people and tell them to come back or fuck off and hand the club to someone who can. So pissed off with this constant merry-go-round.
 

The Gentleman

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Jul 9, 2013
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Your last remark is quite an understatement.

But you say 'CCC can't give SISU the unencumbered freehold that they demand'.
First - I don't believe anyone other than CCC should own the freehold - unencumbered or otherwise!
Still, I wonder how financial secure are ACL really? Are they bleeding cash from a loss making operation? If so, how long have they got?
And should ACL fail, doesn't the freehold become unencumbered?

How do you know that they will fail? just as we do not know what it is exactly Sisu will do next, how do we know if ACL have got something big in the pipeline but have kept quiet because they would like CCFC back but if that fails they put plan B into operation. They are a business after all and will be making sure that they do not fail just because they are waiting for Sisu to pull their fingers out of their arses.
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

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Mar 20, 2011
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Tell you what I missed in these last days, the proof that - as claimed - SISU were 'forced' to play football elsewhere. It was a central pillar in their representations to the Football League. Let's be frank, they haven't been backward in coming forward with regards mud slinging.

I wonder what the FL now think? Of course, I know they're not bothered.

But I wonder what those people think who do travel to Sixfields; now its obvious that the football club seemingly weren't 'forced out' at all? I wonder if they stand there, having lost something like 90% of their fellow fans, and get equally irate that a loan to ACL didn't comply with the detail of the EU's notification laws?
 

Godiva

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Mar 23, 2011
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Your last remark is quite an understatement.

But you say 'CCC can't give SISU the unencumbered freehold that they demand'.
First - I don't believe anyone other than CCC should own the freehold - unencumbered or otherwise!
Still, I wonder how financial secure are ACL really? Are they bleeding cash from a loss making operation? If so, how long have they got?
And should ACL fail, doesn't the freehold become unencumbered?

First-so you are saying that CCC should own the Freehold.

Second-you have swallowed the SISU line that ACL are losing money although there has never been any evidence of such. What about the independent audit as revealed in the JR that showed this to be false?

Third. Should ACL fail for any reason the leasehold would revert back to CCC unless bought out by the likes of SISU. But as you said you want the freehold to stay with CCC

You wanna wait around in Northampton on an if but or maybe?

Why not just buy a lottery ticket each week to fund the new stadium?

Even if ACL are allowed to fail now (seriously unlikely) why on earth would the council sell to Sisu?

Can we stop taking these idiots seriously now please? They've obviously been taking the piss out of city fans for over a year now, they've got absolutely nothing. Let's stop pretending they're reasonable people and tell them to come back or fuck off and hand the club to someone who can. So pissed off with this constant merry-go-round.

How do you know that they will fail? just as we do not know what it is exactly Sisu will do next, how do we know if ACL have got something big in the pipeline but have kept quiet because they would like CCFC back but if that fails they put plan B into operation. They are a business after all and will be making sure that they do not fail just because they are waiting for Sisu to pull their fingers out of their arses.

Oh my - still early morning I guess.

Could you please read my post one more time - only this time read the words written, nothing else.

Astute - Yes, I really believe the freehold should stay with CCC at all time. The stadium is a community asset, but ACL is not.
I haven't a clue if ACL are making a profit or not. I just wonder if they actually have been able to adjust so rapidly to losing their main revenue driver. I think it's a fair question, as all the accounts so far have NOT shown the effect of ccfc playing elsewhere yet. The next set will.
The independent audit - from what period? What did it actually say? What were the premises?

Shmmeee - You're a teacher, right? You should at least be able to read. You are asking a lot of questions so out context.

The Gentleman - I don't know they will fail, do you? That is actually my original question - how financial secure are ACL?
 

Godiva

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Mar 23, 2011
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Tell you what I missed in these last days, the proof that - as claimed - SISU were 'forced' to play football elsewhere. It was a central pillar in their representations to the Football League. Let's be frank, they haven't been backward in coming forward with regards mud slinging.

I wonder what the FL now think? Of course, I know they're not bothered.

But I wonder what those people think who do travel to Sixfields; now its obvious that the football club seemingly weren't 'forced out' at all? I wonder if they stand there, having lost something like 90% of their fellow fans, and get equally irate that a loan to ACL didn't comply with the detail of the EU's notification laws?

You're right - sisu did not present any hard evidence the club was forced out. It was all the usual circumstantial allegations. There were no evidence the other way though - nothing nailed it that the club was not forced out. And I actually don't think it make much difference to the fans going or staying away from Northampton.

But I don't think it has any bearings with the FL. sisu/Otium have an agreement with the FL and I guess the only thing at present that can upset that agreement is how they interpret the payment of the debt from the administration. Other than that I can't see FL getting involved.
 

Hobo

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I find it hard to believe any fan ever thought they were forced out. It has always be clear in my mind they had their own agenda for moving and one of the key points was to distress ACL.

The irony of their claim the CCC loan distorted the market, no one has tried to distort the market more than them.
 

jimmyhillsfanclub

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May 31, 2012
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SO....Any actual news or developments from this JR bullshit.....

No..thought not. Massive load of old cock as was always my expectation.

...I'm just glad I didn't waste hours & hours of my life following this crap. :whistle:

So as things stand, the status quo remains: ie: Sisu are cunts, Acl are cunts, ccc are cunts & the fl are cunts. Well I never. who knew.:D
 

Gint11

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Aug 8, 2012
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SO....Any actual news or developments from this JR bullshit.....

No..thought not. Massive load of old cock as was always my expectation.

...I'm just glad I didn't waste hours & hours of my life following this crap. :whistle:


So as things stand, the status quo remains: ie: Sisu are cunts, Acl are cunts, ccc are cunts & the fl are cunts. Well I never. who knew.:D

Summed up all of this stuff really well.
 

No future with SISU

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Jul 8, 2013
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Your last remark is quite an understatement.

But you say 'CCC can't give SISU the unencumbered freehold that they demand'.
First - I don't believe anyone other than CCC should own the freehold - unencumbered or otherwise!
Still, I wonder how financial secure are ACL really? Are they bleeding cash from a loss making operation? If so, how long have they got?
And should ACL fail, doesn't the freehold become unencumbered?

Will SISU go bust before ACL?
 

dadgad

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Jul 1, 2011
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But I don't think it has any bearings with the FL. sisu/Otium have an agreement with the FL and I guess the only thing at present that can upset that agreement is how they interpret the payment of the debt from the administration. Other than that I can't see FL getting involved.

Ahem! What about the "golden share" and Sisu withholding the bond, isn't that around £1 Million??

Of course, the spineless Football League bent over backwards to accommodate Sisu in their quest to find another ground as they were "forced" out.

Now we discover this was far from true. The FL have been exposed as weak, men of straw and not even prepared to uphold their own guidelines in the face of a tissue of lies.
It'd be laughable if it wasn't so utterly tragic. A club and its fanbase sacrificed because they wanted an easy life.
 

Godiva

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Mar 23, 2011
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Will SISU go bust before ACL?
I think sisu/ARVO are too rich to go bust anytime soon.
I could Rephrase your question: Will sisu/ARVO walk away from the club before CCC walks away from ACL?
 

shmmeee

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Oh my - still early morning I guess.

Could you please read my post one more time - only this time read the words written, nothing else.

Astute - Yes, I really believe the freehold should stay with CCC at all time. The stadium is a community asset, but ACL is not.
I haven't a clue if ACL are making a profit or not. I just wonder if they actually have been able to adjust so rapidly to losing their main revenue driver. I think it's a fair question, as all the accounts so far have NOT shown the effect of ccfc playing elsewhere yet. The next set will.
The independent audit - from what period? What did it actually say? What were the premises?

Shmmeee - You're a teacher, right? You should at least be able to read. You are asking a lot of questions so out context.

The Gentleman - I don't know they will fail, do you? That is actually my original question - how financial secure are ACL?

I was using your post as a jumping point more than anything else, but admittedly I did read you post (and still do, sorry must be your style of writing I have trouble with) as saying that CCC can/should "let" ACL go bust. Which assumes a) that that is a good thing for Coventry and b) that ACL are really going bust. I'm not sure what your basis is for those assumptions.

I am on the autistic spectrum I have issue with innuendo and riddles, hence my confusion with FP yesterday. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you are saying, but it was (and still is) hardly clear. But the old "asking questions" thing is beneath you Godiva, I know that. Just come out and say what you're saying, then back it up with evidence.

The old rule still applies: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 

Godiva

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Mar 23, 2011
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Ahem! What about the "golden share" and Sisu withholding the bond, isn't that around £1 Million??

Of course, the spineless Football League bent over backwards to accommodate Sisu in their quest to find another ground as they were "forced" out.

Now we discover this was far from true. The FL have been exposed as weak, men of straw and not even prepared to uphold their own guidelines in the face of a tissue of lies.
It'd be laughable if it wasn't so utterly tragic. A club and its fanbase sacrificed because they wanted an easy life.

Are sisu withholding a bond? Any links to that information?

But anyway, the FL seems content with the 'progress' towards building a new stadium. Maybe in two years time the situation is different, but 'at present' (the term I used in the post you replied to) I can only see potential problems for the club around the payments of the debts to ACL. Shouldn't the FL discuss that a week ago? As we haven't heard anything I suppose the FL have been pacified by the argument of ACL cashing in £300t from Robinson/McGinnity.
 
J

Jack Griffin

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Are sisu withholding a bond? Any links to that information?

As I understand it they have promised the FL to pay a bond of £1M if they fail to make sufficient progress towards returning to the Coventry Area.. but no money has been handed over.

I'll be stunned if the FL ever call that in.. but we must wait till the end of the 3yr period (or maybe the 5yr period) to see.
 

Godiva

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Mar 23, 2011
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I was using your post as a jumping point more than anything else, but admittedly I did read you post (and still do, sorry must be your style of writing I have trouble with) as saying that CCC can/should "let" ACL go bust. Which assumes a) that that is a good thing for Coventry and b) that ACL are really going bust. I'm not sure what your basis is for those assumptions.

I am on the autistic spectrum I have issue with innuendo and riddles, hence my confusion with FP yesterday. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you are saying, but it was (and still is) hardly clear. But the old "asking questions" thing is beneath you Godiva, I know that. Just come out and say what you're saying, then back it up with evidence.

The old rule still applies: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What I say is: Do we know for sure that ACL are financial secure?
If they're not - then the freehold could potentially become unencumbered. I responded to Astute's post because we have for months taken it for granted that the freehold will never become unencumbered (never mind sold to sisu). Maybe we shouldn't be so sure?

Is that any clearer?
Or can it still be read as 'I want sisu to have the freehold and make a gazillion in profit at the cost of the taxpayers in Coventry and I am hoping the club stays in Northampton until sisu wins'?
 

shmmeee

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What I say is: Do we know for sure that ACL are financial secure?
If they're not - then the freehold could potentially become unencumbered. I responded to Astute's post because we have for months taken it for granted that the freehold will never become unencumbered (never mind sold to sisu). Maybe we shouldn't be so sure?

Is that any clearer?
Or can it still be read as 'I want sisu to have the freehold and make a gazillion in profit at the cost of the taxpayers in Coventry and I am hoping the club stays in Northampton until sisu wins'?

Well, what's your case for them not being financially secure? Without one, why question the official line?

I suppose ultimately, my answer would be: what does it change for CCFC until it crystallises as ACL going under? Hence my flippant "hang around in Northampton" comment.

My frustration is that neither the council nor Sisu are going to be starved out any time soon. Focussing on ifs, buts and maybes doesn't move us forward. If Higgs/Council want to keep ACL running I'm willing to bet they could, ditto Sisu and CCFC. What can be done now, with what we know?
 
D

Deleted member 5849

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If Higgs/Council want to keep ACL running I'm willing to bet they could, ditto Sisu and CCFC.

Unstoppable force, meet immovable object.

However at the risk of stating the obvious, the case just gone was one means of testing the former.
 

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