Do you want to discuss boring politics? (23 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

The Tories increased public spending, debt and taxes to record levels… they were also a ‘tax and spend’ party from 2016 onwards.

To be fair a lot was initially around brexit and then huge armours around Covid, which all sides supported but large sums wasted. The state has grown and now nobody has the political will to shrink it again. Any attempts to get spending under control there’s cries of austerity. Throw in an aging demographic, rampant inflation due to Ukraine war/post Covid, increasing numbers claiming welfare and low productivity, in particular in public sector (not meaning to trigger anyone but that’s what the data and huge amounts of anecdotal evidence says) and people ask where’s the money going

As a country we’re an aging, inefficient, badly run mess at the moment. That includes swathes of the private sector which over the past 15-20 years hasn’t invested in improving productivity and just operated off cheap labour and paying dividends rather than reinvesting and improving efficiency

We* all got by with cheap money/QE for a long time but now rates have gone up and it’s payback nobody wants to pick up the bill

Rant over. Happy Thursday all


*inc a lot of the developed western nations, plus China, Japan etc

Edit - that’s not supposed to sound as depressing as it cones across by the way, it’s just that there’s a large number of issues at play here

 

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[chiefdave]

The state has grown and now nobody has the political will to shrink it again.

As has been said many times it depends where the money is going. For example if you've got an NHS department with 50 staff, make half redundant but then replace half of those with contract staff you're probably paying out more overall but you will have shrunk the service.

The problem with the 'increases' we've seen in recent years is most of it seems to be funnelled directly to the government of the days donors and friends.

We will never get around the inefficiency when we are determined to ignore the data. Things like flexible working, compressed hours, 4 day week etc all show efficiency benefits but are immediately dismissed as people being lazy. Everything is run by, for want of a better word, boomers who can't envisage any other way of working.

 

[CCFCSteve]

As has been said many times it depends where the money is going. For example if you've got an NHS department with 50 staff, make half redundant but then replace half of those with contract staff you're probably paying out more overall but you will have shrunk the service.

The problem with the 'increases' we've seen in recent years is most of it seems to be funnelled directly to the government of the days donors and friends.

We will never get around the inefficiency when we are determined to ignore the data. Things like flexible working, compressed hours, 4 day week etc all show efficiency benefits but are immediately dismissed as people being lazy. Everything is run by, for want of a better word, boomers who can't envisage any other way of working.

100% agree that it’s all about where the money is going and making sure it’s spent wisely

I’ve said before the election and since I don’t mind paying a bit more tax if it helps improve public services locally and nationally.

If those improvements don’t happen by the next election the government are done.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Ps there’s no doubt been some cash going to donors/friends especially during covid but that will be a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things and if that was the main issue then it will be easy for the government to turn things around (it isn’t though)

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Ps there’s no doubt been some cash going to donors/friends especially during covid but that will be a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things and if that was the main issue then it will be easy for the government to turn things around (it isn’t though)

I’ve seen the easy answer is stop immigration and send everyone home come on Steve

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Where were the increases then? I think you're confusing their abysmal record with the economy (austerity draining demand and then capacity) with the necessary uplifts due to the chronic position public services were in, and the massive costs of their own Brexit.

COVID was the single biggest increase in public spending in our peace time history.

Even the narrative in and around ‘austerity’, the NHS budget was never cut, it only increased albeit just not as quickly as inflation. It’s the same with welfare spending, the increases in expenditure were slowed down rather than physically cut. A big mistake the Coalition government made imo, is cutting infrastructure projects and other investment spending seeing as interest rates were so low. A government doesn’t have the luxury of minimal interest rates enjoyed by Cameron’s government.

The big drops in public spending were in local government and departmental spending. Health and education spending was mostly protected.

https://ifs.org.uk/election-2015/public-spending

 

[chiefdave]

I’ve said before the election and since I don’t mind paying a bit more tax if it helps improve public services locally and nationally.

This is the difference. I've had conversations with people in countries that are considered high tax and while everyone in the world would like to pay less tax there's a general feeling that things work so they don't mind paying. As one person said to me 'we need a school it gets built, we need a hospital it gets built, we need a road it gets built'.

What isn't acceptable is an ever increasing tax burden, and we are told we currently have the highest ever tax burden, while services get worse and money seemingly fails to reach the front line.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This is the difference. I've had conversations with people in countries that are considered high tax and while everyone in the world would like to pay less tax there's a general feeling that things work so they don't mind paying. As one person said to me 'we need a school it gets built, we need a hospital it gets built, we need a road it gets built'.

What isn't acceptable is an ever increasing tax burden, and we are told we currently have the highest ever tax burden, while services get worse and money seemingly fails to reach the front line.

Because it makes its way to executive level staff who fuck about and divert the money away from the front line service. See good examples in the education and care sectors.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

This is the difference. I've had conversations with people in countries that are considered high tax and while everyone in the world would like to pay less tax there's a general feeling that things work so they don't mind paying. As one person said to me 'we need a school it gets built, we need a hospital it gets built, we need a road it gets built'.

What isn't acceptable is an ever increasing tax burden, and we are told we currently have the highest ever tax burden, while services get worse and money seemingly fails to reach the front line.

Our taxes have increased to record levels and we’ve had none of that.

There needs to be cuts somewhere to facilitate the improvements you want elsewhere. For example, bringing welfare spending back to pre-COVID levels frees up around £45-50bn in spending alone.

 

[fernandopartridge]

COVID was the single biggest increase in public spending in our peace time history.

Even the narrative in and around ‘austerity’, the NHS budget was never cut, it only increased albeit just not as quickly as inflation. It’s the same with welfare spending, the increases in expenditure were slowed down rather than physically cut. A big mistake the Coalition government made imo, is cutting infrastructure projects and other investment spending seeing as interest rates were so low. A government doesn’t have the luxury of minimal interest rates enjoyed by Cameron’s government.

The big drops in public spending were in local government and departmental spending. Health and education spending was mostly protected.

https://ifs.org.uk/election-2015/public-spending

It is not only inflation though is it? The big issue for the NHS is that the patients that cost the most (old people) are growing as a proportion of the total. Its budget then needs to grow with the population + by inflation + by the acuity of patients. All the while trying to somehow find the budget to pay for the massive backlog of required capital works. I agree with you about the cuts to infrastructure and investment spending, and they are having ever greater impact now.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It is not only inflation though is it? The big issue for the NHS is that the patients that cost the most (old people) are growing as a proportion of the total. Its budget then needs to grow with the population + by inflation + by the acuity of patients. All the while trying to somehow find the budget to pay for the massive backlog of required capital works. I agree with you about the cuts to infrastructure and investment spending, and they are having ever greater impact now.

Structurally, the NHS wasn’t pioneered with today’s challenges in mind.

Any tax funded public service is on a beating to none when the number of net-tax contributors is approaching being outnumbered by net-tax non-contributors (it’s approaching parity).

It’s the same with the welfare state (excluding pensioners), the amount of 18-24 year olds on incapacity benefits for health disorders is completely unsustainable and doesn’t help their conditions.

One problem with the metropolitan lefties (i.e. Labour frontbenchers who are social mobile sons/daughters of working class parents), is that either do not see that this a problem or that they don’t want to confront it. The traditional working class won’t work, not hand outs and this is a culture shift that many European centre-left parties haven’t yet come to grips with.

One thing that is completely unsustainable is that in and around 40-50% of the population is reliant on the state. Be it public sector workers, benefits claimants and yes, pensioners. Public sector pensions is a debt crisis waiting to happen and no one can touch it because the unions will kick off.

I wouldn’t mind if the government unleashed a significant public spending plan to increase our industrial capacity. For all the good Thatcher did in some policy areas, the big unforgivable thing her government and subsequent governments did was hollow out the working class by embracing globalisation and deindustrialisation.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

For all the good Thatcher did in some policy areas, the big unforgivable thing her government and subsequent governments did was hollow out the working class by embracing globalisation and deindustrialisation.

I agree entirely on this point. The issue is that parties don't focus on this but the immigrant bogeyman as the cause of people's problems.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I agree entirely on this point. The issue is that parties don't focus on this but the immigrant bogeyman as the cause of people's problems.

They are two separate points. Immigration is undeniably exacerbating areas that are impacting the cost of the living:
- housing demand on house prices and rents
- access to social housing, foreign born people are overs presented in social housing
- wage depression
- rising benefits bill, which is driving up taxes

That is without considering cultural factors like people resenting the pace of change and the increase of migrant crime that is well observed and documented across Europe.

All of these things breed resentment and are actual problems for many working people. Again, metropolitan liberally minded people are generally sheltered from all of these things.

 

[Sbarcher]

Looks like our Rachael is gearing up for another U turn on the cost of running pubs and hospitality.
Don't think it's too far off now when Starmer will be throwing her under the bus to try and save himself.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Looks like our Rachael is gearing up for another U turn on the cost of running pubs and hospitality.
Don't think it's too far off now when Starmer will be throwing her under the bus to try and save himself.

Government of all the talents latest

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Government of all the talents latest

Still bizarre tories got 14 years Starmer 6 months

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Still bizarre tories got 14 years Starmer 6 months

The Tories, for their faults, didn't make this many unforced errors and U-turns in their 14 years. The electorate has sussed out this government already and frankly, given Labour's vote share in the first place, they were never that popular to begin with.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The Tories, for their faults, didn't make this many unforced errors and U-turns in their 14 years. The electorate has sussed out this government already and frankly, given Labour's vote share in the first place, they were never that popular to begin with.

They did, you're either choosing to ignore them or just can't remember because it was so long ago.

The reason people are calling them Tory-lite is because the things they're doing, like fuck-ups and U-turns, were done by the Tories before them.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Still bizarre tories got 14 years Starmer 6 months

He's had 18 months now.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

He's had 18 months now.

Was being ridiculed after 3

Ran out of naproxen today

Pharmacy claimed not to have repeat prescription
Phoned gp who got prescription signed and sent to pharmacy
Texted the code and collected after closing
Great service

 

[fatso]

Was being ridiculed after 3

Ran out of naproxen today

Pharmacy claimed not to have repeat prescription
Phoned gp who got prescription signed and sent to pharmacy
Texted the code and collected after closing
Great service

Sounds a right head ache

You should take something for it!

 

[Nick]

Was being ridiculed after 3

Ran out of naproxen today

Pharmacy claimed not to have repeat prescription
Phoned gp who got prescription signed and sent to pharmacy
Texted the code and collected after closing
Great service

Haven't doctors appointments got worse?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Haven't doctors appointments got worse?

Nope our gp is great

 

[Nick]

Nope our gp is great

I meant in general, more people waiting longer for appointments.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I meant in general, more people waiting longer for appointments.

Are they or is that the mantra from reform and x??

 

[Nick]

Are they or is that the mantra from reform and x??

Yeah, it's all from x and reform your doctor is great, nobody else has issues getting appointments, it's made up by farage.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Yeah, it's all from x and reform your doctor is great, nobody else has issues getting appointments, it's made up by farage.

I moved from forum to cheylesmore surgery and both so long as you dont expect the world it’s super

Where are you?
Think unrealistic expectations can be an issue definitely

 

[fernandopartridge]

Was being ridiculed after 3

Ran out of naproxen today

Pharmacy claimed not to have repeat prescription
Phoned gp who got prescription signed and sent to pharmacy
Texted the code and collected after closing
Great service

He doesn't run the pharmacy Pete

 

[Nick]

I moved from forum to cheylesmore surgery and both so long as you dont expect the world it’s super

Where are you?
Think unrealistic expectations can be an issue definitely

I don't just mean a particular surgery. I mean in general.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I don't just mean a particular surgery. I mean in general.

You don’t have to stay at one that’s rubbish

 

[Nick]

You don’t have to stay at one that’s rubbish

Yeah it's just made up by farage.

You're brainwashed.

 

[djr8369]

The Tories, for their faults, didn't make this many unforced errors and U-turns in their 14 years. The electorate has sussed out this government already and frankly, given Labour's vote share in the first place, they were never that popular to begin with.

Sorry but that’s bollocks. Labour have not been great but it’s all standard stuff we’re used to.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Yeah it's just made up by farage.

You're brainwashed.

I’m suggesting having an attitude of gratitude changes your experience
If you have a victim mentality everything is shit
Not you necessarily unless you want to wear it

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Yeah it's just made up by farage.

You're brainwashed.

So yours is rubbish but you can’t be arsed to do anything about it
I was on the patient body at our previous one helping decide on priorities
Get involved
Or just follow reforms mantra that the country and the world are shit and all our woes are down to other people

 

[Nick]

So yours is rubbish but you can’t be arsed to do anything about it
I was on the patient body at our previous one helping decide on priorities
Get involved
Or just follow reforms mantra that the country and the world are shit and all our woes are down to other people

It's nothing to do with reform and I'm not just on about mine.

Why is that the instant go to?