Kitching and Thomas (5 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well it annoys me when unchallenged crosses pour into our box but that’s life. That’s the way we play. But surely there can’t be a serious case made that either Van Ewijk or Dasilva can defend??

It annoys me when we pack our box at corners, clear it to nobody and have to defend another ball in while we continue to concede most of our goals from set pieces.

Make defending set pieces logical again

 

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[Ccfcisparks]

Who was m.o.m against Bristol CIty last Saturday ?

Dunno

 

[PUSB-We_are_going_up]

Kitching to me has a similar style to Maguire

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It annoys me when we pack our box at corners, clear it to nobody and have to defend another ball in while we continue to concede most of our goals from set pieces.

Make defending set pieces logical again

It’s to create a numerical superiority in defence of 2 players. If you’ve got teams that play 5-3-2, they’ve potentially got a height advantage.

Pure zonal and man marking also have their faults so imagine the concept of a hybrid system requires that numerical superiority.

Leaving 1 or 2 players upfront requires a super low % chance pass getting to them to create a chance.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s to create a numerical superiority in defence of 2 players. If you’ve got teams that play 5-3-2, they’ve potentially got a height advantage.

Pure zonal and man marking also have their faults so imagine the concept of a hybrid system requires that numerical superiority.

Leaving 1 or 2 players upfront requires a super low % chance pass getting to them to create a chance.

That doesn't compute. You leave players up, the opposition leaves players back and the numerical advantage is maintained but your own players have fewer opponents to worry about and your keeper can take part in the defence rather than remain swamped on his line. How often this season have we cleared the ball for it to come straight back in because we have nobody up to even contest it?

My thinking is actually more about making the set piece easier to defend rather than score on the break. I'd leave 3 players up to be clear.

 

[Hobo]

That doesn't compute. You leave players up, the opposition leaves players back and the numerical advantage is maintained but your own players have fewer opponents to worry about and your keeper can take part in the defence rather than remain swamped on his line. How often this season have we cleared the ball for it to come straight back in because we have nobody up to even contest it?

My thinking is actually more about making the set piece easier to defend rather than score on the break. I'd leave 3 players up to be clear.

My take is it is all about penalty area congestion. It's why when defending the counter we defend by retreating into the penalty area rather than press the wide ball. It is not just us as it seems the coaching norm these days - defend narrow.

Goalkeepers coming up for corners is another bug bear. They often get in the way and mess things up. But teams do it because very occasionally it results in a goal

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

My take is it is all about penalty area congestion. It's why when defending the counter we defend by retreating into the penalty area rather than press the wide ball. It is not just us as it seems the coaching norm these days - defend narrow.

I understand the reasoning, I just think congestion in the box helps the attacking team instead.

 

[Hobo]

I understand the reasoning, I just think congestion in the box helps the attacking team instead.

I don't think it helps them score from a set piece. But I do think it helps them box you in and maybe score off the third or fourth phase.

That's the thing about formations and tactics - every coin has two sides. For every positive there is always a weakness that can be exploited.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don't think it helps them score from a set piece. But I do think it helps them box you in and maybe score off the third or fourth phase.

That's the thing about formations and tactics - every coin has two sides. For every positive there is always a weakness that can be exploited.

I've seen countless examples this season alone of teams doing this then conceding goals in the 6 yard box despite packing it with bodies. I think generally teams are tying themselves up in knots trying to copy a trend from the top.

We're conceding the bulk of our goals in this fashion and it seems needless.

 

[mmttww]

Make defending set pieces logical again

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

View attachment 47770

Don't think it'll catch on. AAATB caps however...

 

[mmttww]

Don't think it'll catch on. AAATB caps however...

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I understand the reasoning, I just think congestion in the box helps the attacking team instead.

Why does it? More congestion = less space for attackers to run into. Especially now with how often defending team draw fouls too.

The wider point is that I’m sure we’ve made more counterattacks breaking from the box (e.g. MVE v Charlton) than hitting and hoping from a corner clearance.

Leaving 1 player upfront seems redundant and 2 is impractical so it makes more sense to defend a set piece and reset rather than looking for a counter.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why does it? More congestion = less space for attackers to run into. Especially now with how often defending team draw fouls too.

The wider point is that I’m sure we’ve made more counterattacks breaking from the box (e.g. MVE v Charlton) than hitting and hoping from a corner clearance.

Leaving 1 player upfront seems redundant and 2 is impractical so it makes more sense to defend a set piece and reset rather than looking for a counter.

A more crowded box prevents the goalkeeper from taking part in the defence and complicates the task for the others because there's more players to keep track of, more jostling around and it's harder for players to carry out their tasks. By way of example, watch the West Ham-Crystal Palace game from this season; multiple goals scored in the 6 yard box because defending players get tied up and can't carry out the instructions.

This is all just my fetish of an opinion of course, the data on this is surprisingly hard to find considering how much else is freely available. Fewer people in the box in my opinion makes it simpler for the defending players to carry out their tasks and allows the keeper to actively defend the ball in too, which he can't if there's 10-15 players swamping around him.

 

[Hobo]

I've seen countless examples this season alone of teams doing this then conceding goals in the 6 yard box despite packing it with bodies. I think generally teams are tying themselves up in knots trying to copy a trend from the top.

We're conceding the bulk of our goals in this fashion and it seems needless.

It’s percentages. Keepers between the penalty area and halfway line. It allows an extra man to push up. They field a lot of counter attacks but occasionally get chipped and concede a goal.

I don’t agree with all modern tactics and like you see it as fashion copying top teams. But when we were in League Two there was a mantra of we aren’t good enough to play out from the back. Now we are in the Championship and National League teams play out from the back.

I remember as a kid in the 60’s seeing my first football team line up/ formation in a book, it was five forwards.

This season under Lampard when we are attacking the opposition, we have three in the six yard box and two on the edge of the penalty area. So not that different.

I think where the modern game has changed is formations aren’t rigid but more fluid. The game is played in phases. Formations aren’t rigid but rotational, which makes them potentially harder to defend.

 

[colinc]

Don't see why we need to leave everyone back at a corner, the opposition will generally leave 2 people back if you leave someone on the halfway line, if we leave Tats up then it should give us a height advantage to defend the corner (unless they mark Tats with someone the same height)

 

[Londonccfcfan]

That doesn't compute. You leave players up, the opposition leaves players back and the numerical advantage is maintained but your own players have fewer opponents to worry about and your keeper can take part in the defence rather than remain swamped on his line. How often this season have we cleared the ball for it to come straight back in because we have nobody up to even contest it?

My thinking is actually more about making the set piece easier to defend rather than score on the break. I'd leave 3 players up to be clear.

Im pf same opinion absolutely baffles me how we leave the penalty area so congested. Its literally leaving it to chance.

 

[skyblue025]

I'd leave Milan up at every corner/set piece. He can run past players with his pace as already shown this season. He's also got a decent shot on him.

 

[procdoc]

Im pf same opinion absolutely baffles me how we leave the penalty area so congested. Its literally leaving it to chance.

No matter how you set up there’s always an element of risk. No team is invincible at defending set pieces and it’s not like we concede loads from them

 

[Lamps]

Well it annoys me when unchallenged crosses pour into our box but that’s life. That’s the way we play. But surely there can’t be a serious case made that either Van Ewijk or Dasilva can defend??

Are you being serious? There's only 1 side that's conceded less goals than us in the Championship so far this season and that's Stoke. We've conceded 22 goals in 21 games and it's 20 for Stoke. But they play defensively and have only scored 28 and we have scored 52.

I've noticed that most of those having a go at our 'poor defence' or 'poor defending' were also those who thought we had a poor squad and would be about 8th to mid table this season. The same people constantly complained about the amount of set piece goals we let in at the start of the season. We now defend each one more solidly but now the complaint is we defend the set pieces too much

Lampard must be a tactical genius as we have a poor squad, defenders that can't defend but at the same time defend too much at the same time as scoring more goals than I've ever seen before whilst having one of the best defences in the division. And has anyone noticed we're also clear at the top somehow?

 

[Lamps]

I'd leave Milan up at every corner/set piece. He can run past players with his pace as already shown this season. He's also got a decent shot on him.

I'd leave Wright and EMC up myself. One with pace and a good shot in the middle and the other that players bounce off with trickery at his feet. But what do I know. The present system works well. 2 defeats in 21 games and one of them was with most of our defence missing.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s percentages. Keepers between the penalty area and halfway line. It allows an extra man to push up. They field a lot of counter attacks but occasionally get chipped and concede a goal.

I don’t agree with all modern tactics and like you see it as fashion copying top teams. But when we were in League Two there was a mantra of we aren’t good enough to play out from the back. Now we are in the Championship and National League teams play out from the back.

I remember as a kid in the 60’s seeing my first football team line up/ formation in a book, it was five forwards.

This season under Lampard when we are attacking the opposition, we have three in the six yard box and two on the edge of the penalty area. So not that different.

I think where the modern game has changed is formations aren’t rigid but more fluid. The game is played in phases. Formations aren’t rigid but rotational, which makes them potentially harder to defend.

Playing out from the back when you aren’t good enough leads to you giving the ball away close to your own goal. Packing your own box and giving your players detailed zonal marking instructions likewise just gives the opposition more chances to score from the set piece because they have more players in the box. Teams who have the best players in their respective leagues can do these things and get away with it because the other sides generally aren’t good enough to punish them.

What I’ve enjoyed the most about our football this season is the speed at which we’re moving the ball up the pitch through either a series of short passes, players (like Kitching) carrying the ball or by going a bit more direct. It’s how football was meant to be played, not doing Cruyff turns in your own 6 yard box because that’s what Pep does. It’s more entertaining and it’s more threatening for the opposition.

 

[Cally Fedora]

Are you being serious? There's only 1 side that's conceded less goals than us in the Championship so far this season and that's Stoke. We've conceded 22 goals in 21 games and it's 20 for Stoke. But they play defensively and have only scored 28 and we have scored 52.

I've noticed that most of those having a go at our 'poor defence' or 'poor defending' were also those who thought we had a poor squad and would be about 8th to mid table this season. The same people constantly complained about the amount of set piece goals we let in at the start of the season. We now defend each one more solidly but now the complaint is we defend the set pieces too much

Lampard must be a tactical genius as we have a poor squad, defenders that can't defend but at the same time defend too much at the same time as scoring more goals than I've ever seen before whilst having one of the best defences in the division. And has anyone noticed we're also clear at the top somehow?

Perfectly serious. I notice you’ve taken the debate about our full backs and gone into a full defence analysis. My point is simple. We consciously play with full backs who are better going forward than back. That’s fine. It’s working. But our full backs are poor defensively.

 

[Cally Fedora]

Milan has been dribbled past 13 times all season. He’s made 19 interceptions
Dasilva has been dribbled past 10 times all season. He’s made 22 interceptions.
Their defensive stats are actually very good overall.

Oh no, not stats. Let me debunk a couple. Dasilva will very, very rarely get dribbled past. That’s because it’s so easy to drop a ball in behind him. Van Ewijk has made 22 interceptions. Where? After giving it away? I’m not saying they are bad players or we should change what is working well for us. But defensively they are poor.

 

[Lamps]

Perfectly serious. I notice you’ve taken the debate about our full backs and gone into a full defence analysis. My point is simple. We consciously play with full backs who are better going forward than back. That’s fine. It’s working. But our full backs are poor defensively.

Poor?

My point is that if two of our 4 defenders were poor there wouldn't be just 1 side with a better defensive record.

How about the recent list of defenders and their stats that had Thomas top and Kitching not far behind him? Of course they make the occasional mistake but most of the time they're solid. It's just like those who refused for ages to admit JDS is doing a very good job. MVE on the other side is doing his usual. We have a very good defence without a weak link. Our defence is doing better than the sides that don't have their defence join in with the attacks.

 

[SleepyGinger]

2 very good championship defenders but both probably need upgrading if we go up

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Poor?

My point is that if two of our 4 defenders were poor there wouldn't be just 1 side with a better defensive record.

How about the recent list of defenders and their stats that had Thomas top and Kitching not far behind him? Of course they make the occasional mistake but most of the time they're solid. It's just like those who refused for ages to admit JDS is doing a very good job. MVE on the other side is doing his usual. We have a very good defence without a weak link. Our defence is doing better than the sides that don't have their defence join in with the attacks.

In fairness, you look at Kitching's defensive stats and they're very middling relative to the division, but on the ball he's having a strong season. Thomas' numbers are worse than Kitching's in both respects. Both are posting ridiculous numbers for their shooting.

It tells me that the overall good defensive numbers come from the collective rather than those two specifically. And I say that as a fan of both players. In fact, the individual defensive stats for the first choice back 4 are all average or worse. What's helping is we have one of the best performing keepers in the league and the best defensive midfielder in the league sitting in front of the defence.

Bobby Thomas - stats, career and market value

Bobby Thomas, Team: Coventry City, Age: 24, Country: England, Height: 186 cm, Preferred foot: Right, Shirt: 4, Market value: €4.1M

www.fotmob.com

Liam Kitching - stats, career and market value

Liam Kitching, Team: Coventry City, Age: 26, Country: England, Height: 190 cm, Preferred foot: Left, Shirt: 15, Market value: €5.2M

www.fotmob.com

 

[Bertola]

In fairness, you look at Kitching's defensive stats and they're very middling relative to the division, but on the ball he's having a strong season. Thomas' numbers are worse than Kitching's in both respects. Both are posting ridiculous numbers for their shooting.

It tells me that the overall good defensive numbers come from the collective rather than those two specifically. And I say that as a fan of both players. In fact, the individual defensive stats for the first choice back 4 are all average or worse. What's helping is we have one of the best performing keepers in the league and the best defensive midfielder in the league sitting in front of the defence.

Bobby Thomas - stats, career and market value

Bobby Thomas, Team: Coventry City, Age: 24, Country: England, Height: 186 cm, Preferred foot: Right, Shirt: 4, Market value: €4.1M

www.fotmob.com

Liam Kitching - stats, career and market value

Liam Kitching, Team: Coventry City, Age: 26, Country: England, Height: 190 cm, Preferred foot: Left, Shirt: 15, Market value: €5.2M

www.fotmob.com

I've said for a while, that the whole of the partnership is better than the sum of the parts. Despite both having flaws, they work well together, not sure i'd swap them for any other Centre back partnership in the league

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I've said for a while, that the hole of the partnership is better than the sum of the parts. Despite both having flaws, they work well together, not sure i'd swap them for any other Centre back partnership in the league

Not everything that matters can be measured, absolutely. But the comment about them not being great defensively has some merit. Rushworth is having an excellent season and arguably won us the game last weekend, which is no criticism, he’s as part of the team as anyone else and it’s what he’s there for.

 

[mmttww]

In fact, the individual defensive stats for the first choice back 4 are all average or worse.

Not a shock, not all on them. Like folks said, it's going to be partly down to how we play.

I don't get the 'NO DOUBT ALLOWED! BOBBY AND LIAM ARE THE BEST!' groupthink.

I like them both and they've improved. Think there's work to do defensively. Hardly heretical.

 

[Hobo]

Playing out from the back when you aren’t good enough leads to you giving the ball away close to your own goal. Packing your own box and giving your players detailed zonal marking instructions likewise just gives the opposition more chances to score from the set piece because they have more players in the box. Teams who have the best players in their respective leagues can do these things and get away with it because the other sides generally aren’t good enough to punish them.

What I’ve enjoyed the most about our football this season is the speed at which we’re moving the ball up the pitch through either a series of short passes, players (like Kitching) carrying the ball or by going a bit more direct. It’s how football was meant to be played, not doing Cruyff turns in your own 6 yard box because that’s what Pep does. It’s more entertaining and it’s more threatening for the opposition.

I agree Tempo is key. Grimes has made a big difference in this. Not only are his passes accurate and well weighted he is happy to receive the ball back in tight spaces. It gives players like Dasilva an out if they are closed down rather than go all the way back to the keeper.

 

[procdoc]

Oh no, not stats. Let me debunk a couple. Dasilva will very, very rarely get dribbled past. That’s because it’s so easy to drop a ball in behind him. Van Ewijk has made 22 interceptions. Where? After giving it away? I’m not saying they are bad players or we should change what is working well for us. But defensively they are poor.

They are not poor defenders though. Dasilva in particular has improved a lot. You talk utter bollocks to be honest

 

[Captain Dart]

Kitching to me has a similar style to Maguire

Thomas to me has a similar sized head to Maguire.

 

[skybluegod]

I've said for a while, that the whole of the partnership is better than the sum of the parts. Despite both having flaws, they work well together, not sure i'd swap them for any other Centre back partnership in the league

You are right they are an excellent partnership but have played together for 4 seasons now between us and Barnsley so you would expect so. When we go up, there is an upgrade to be had, and a better partnership could be formed over time.