Do you want to discuss boring politics? (21 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

Local government pension scheme is in surplus so it's clearly very sustainable.

What isn't sustainable is a race to the bottom on pay and pensions.

They’ve cut services are raised council tax by 20% in two years

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

They’ve cut services are raised council tax by 20% in two years

What would you suggest they do when central government cut the funding and they have to run a city of that size?

 

[CCFCSteve]

The country as a whole faces a serious challenge with pensions. The analogous social security programme in the US has enough in it to carry on unfunded for a good while yet, whereas whatever we're doing is a bit of a mess.

The answer in my view isn't to just make everyone's pensions worse.

It’s about making sure they’re sustainable and affordable.

People just don’t get it. I’d imagine that by the time I’m due to receive it they’ll probably be means testing the state pension yet nobody wants to remove the triple lock ?! It’s madness

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Looks like sneering to me buddy, and frankly a bit insulting.

With respect BSB, how many public sector workers ever had to do any of the following:
- manage a budget
- be responsible for cost saving initiatives
- negotiate a contract/tender for business
- fire someone for poor performance
- make a business decision of consequences e.g. redundancies

Front line public sector workers are good at what they do, but a v small % of these people will ever make a business decision of consequence in their careers. Now apply that to governing a country.

 

[CCFCSteve]

What would you suggest they do when central government cut the funding and they have to run a city of that size?

Look into the mismanagement of Birmingham city council and let’s discuss again.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I have told you that it is a statutory obligation for them to do so.

Not a DB scheme

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

In reality any sensible contract has an indexation clause or an agreed rate of increase over its term, otherwise if you are awarding a five year contract you will pay year five prices in year one.

A local authority say in a long term contract for the provision of services to the public isn't faced with such easy choices to change suppliers (for above threshold contracts anyway).

Not necessarily. The business I’m with had to absorb significant losses on 1-2 big contracts because of inflation driven by the war in Ukraine.

Fixed term contracts are normal in the business world and in fact, a contract I’ve negotiated personally is fixed for 3 years.

What you’re explaining in the above probably highlights the differences in procurement in the two sectors.

 

[SBT]

With respect BSB, how many public sector workers ever had to do any of the following:
- manage a budget
- be responsible for cost saving initiatives
- negotiate a contract/tender for business
- fire someone for poor performance
- make a business decision of consequences e.g. redundancies

What condescending nonsense. Anyone in a managerial role at a school board, local authority or NHS trust would be doing this stuff every single day. But I suppose they’d have to ask some 20-something MBA grad at McKinsey how things ‘really’ work.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

What condescending nonsense. Anyone in a managerial role at a school board, local authority or NHS trust would be doing this stuff every single day. But I suppose they’d have to ask some 20-something MBA grad at McKinsey how things ‘really’ work.

Consultants are the worst. That is the one industry I cannot stand (especially and genuinely sneer at. They tell you the sky is blue and never actually make decisions of consequence themselves.

Your second sentence supports what I said and exposes two things; 1) managers are in that small % I mentioned and 2) the reliance on consultants in the public and 3rd sector, particularly ‘big 4’ firms who charge outrageous prices.

Ironically, a Reform run council (KCC?) paid £1.4m in consultancy costs to support their DOGE operations…

 

[PVA]

Basically your just a fear monger, spreading complete nonsense. The fact is no one knows how reform will do in office as they have never held office.

You don't have to have experienced something to know that it won't go well.

I've never walked out in front of a moving train but I know it wouldn't end well if I did.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

With respect BSB, how many public sector workers ever had to do any of the following:
- manage a budget
- be responsible for cost saving initiatives
- negotiate a contract/tender for business
- fire someone for poor performance
- make a business decision of consequences e.g. redundancies

Front line public sector workers are good at what they do, but a v small % of these people will ever make a business decision of consequence in their careers. Now apply that to governing a country.

My department head at school had to put in for and manage a budget each year, find ways to reduce departmental running costs, put colleagues on performance management plans and was involved in decisions on support staff redundancies. This alongside continuing to deliver classroom teaching.

With respect, you're talking totally out of your arse, and it's condescending nonsense. There are people in private companies who just deliver their front line services too and don't have leadership responsibility, which I think is really what you're on about. Such people exist in both sectors.

 

[SBT]

Your second sentence supports what I said and exposes two things; 1) managers are in that small % I mentioned and

So if it’s only people in managerial roles who ever “make a business decision of consequence” (your words), why draw a distinction between private and public sector workers at all?

 

[Grendel]

You don't have to have experienced something to know that it won't go well.

I've never walked out in front of a moving train but I know it wouldn't end well if I did.

Thats what a lot of us said about Starmer and reeves - How is that going?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But the one thing I'm fucking certain of is that the reds and the blues aren't the way forward.

As they both stand at the moment, I fully agree with you. But for now I only want to see the sky blues succeeding on the football pitch, not the ballot box.

 

[Grendel]

What would you suggest they do when central government cut the funding and they have to run a city of that size?

The bankruptcy was nothing to do with central funding

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

My department head at school had to put in for and manage a budget each year, find ways to reduce departmental running costs, put colleagues on performance management plans and was involved in decisions on support staff redundancies. This alongside continuing to deliver classroom teaching.

With respect, you're talking totally out of your arse, and it's condescending nonsense. There are people in private companies who just deliver their front line services too and don't have leadership responsibility, which I think is really what you're on about. Such people exist in both sectors.

So if it’s only people in managerial roles who ever “make a business decision of consequence” (your words), why draw a distinction between private and public sector workers at all?

So a small % of middle managers?

What happens in the public sector if these people don’t deliver? In the private sector, they get sacked.

Consider why public sector worker productivity is consistently behind that of the private sector. Without obfuscating about public sector productivity being ‘unquantifiable’ or something to that effect. Whatever they’re measuring, it’s going down or flatlining, not going up.

Don’t get me wrong, this countries private sector’s productivity is nothing to shout about either. It’s worth noting that productivity and wage growth is correlated.

As they both stand at the moment, I fully agree with you. But for now I only want to see the sky blues succeeding on the football pitch, not the ballot box.

Nah, Reform are teal. Let’s keep ‘Sky Blue’ for our club and only our club!

 

[Grendel]

Consultants are the worst. That is the one industry I cannot stand (especially and genuinely sneer at. They tell you the sky is blue and never actually make decisions of consequence themselves.

Your second sentence supports what I said and exposes two things; 1) managers are in that small % I mentioned and 2) the reliance on consultants in the public and 3rd sector, particularly ‘big 4’ firms who charge outrageous prices.

Ironically, a Reform run council (KCC?) paid £1.4m in consultancy costs to support their DOGE operations…

Some Councils have actually spent funds on the Boston Consulting Group - The most money making and inept idiots I have ever come across.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Basically your just a fear monger, spreading complete nonsense. The fact is no one knows how reform will do in office as they have never held office.

What we can say with some justification is that both our major political parties have failed miserabley. The tories were hopeless and Labour have been even worse.

There is now a party offering an alternative route, but my guess is that clueless fear mongers will prevent us from ever finding out if the third way is the best way.

I've no idea (yet) if reform is the answer. But the one thing im fucking certain of is that the reds and the blues arnt the way forward.

And if your complaint about the current shit state of the country while not being prepared to examine an alternative, then your absolutely insane.

The third way is Liberal Democrat’s not the equivalent of full on facism surely for the millionaire and billionaires

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So a small % of middle managers?

What happens in the public sector if these people don’t deliver? In the private sector, they get sacked.

Consider why public sector worker productivity is consistently behind that of the private sector. Without obfuscating about public sector productivity being ‘unquantifiable’ or something to that effect. Whatever they’re measuring, it’s going down or flatlining, not going up.

Don’t get me wrong, this countries private sector’s productivity is nothing to shout about either. It’s worth noting that productivity and wage growth is correlated.


Nah, Reform are teal. Let’s keep ‘Sky Blue’ for our club and only our club!

The public sector has middle and senior leaders like anyone else. What percentage of the McDonald's workforce hold responsibilities of the type you describe? The chief difference is that one is focused on delivering a service, the other on making a profit. You need a healthy mix of both in a social democracy like this one, and I'd agree with you that a government cabinet should have one also.

Where I take issue with you is this condescending tone that permeates your posts on this topic, just as when you previously wrote that public sector workers haven't got 'real life' experience. You probably don't mean to come across like that, but it's how it looks. Nobody benefits from the two workforces being pitted against each other ironically except for those at the very top.

 

[Grendel]

So if it’s only people in managerial roles who ever “make a business decision of consequence” (your words), why draw a distinction between private and public sector workers at all?

There is one obvious difference.

 

[rob9872]

Not necessarily. The business I’m with had to absorb significant losses on 1-2 big contracts because of inflation driven by the war in Ukraine.

Fixed term contracts are normal in the business world and in fact, a contract I’ve negotiated personally is fixed for 3 years.

What you’re explaining in the above probably highlights the differences in procurement in the two sectors.

We have many fixed term contracts, but as FP says, we have indexes for change and a break clause (with notice period) for substantial changes.

Examples being on things like transport alongside which we run a fuel index based published prices and weve banded into brackets of eg + or - 10p litre, no surcharge or rebate and then scaled in bands. Similarly with Far East freight where we offer a fully landed and ex-works prices due to the volatility in container trends like we had through Covid.

We also fix our hedged quarterly exchanges, but again offer terms in more than one currency. It's super important in current times for both sides to protect themselves from unfair risk.

 

[rob9872]

The third way is Liberal Democrat’s not the equivalent of full on facism surely for the millionaire and billionaires

Bloody hell Pete, as a protest vote I understand it, but they really are scraping the bottom.

 

[fatso]

The third way is Liberal Democrat’s not the equivalent of full on facism surely for the millionaire and billionaires

Its not and never will be the lib dems Pete.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The public sector has middle and senior leaders like anyone else. The chief difference is that one is focused on delivering a service, the other on making a profit. You need a healthy mix of both in a social democracy like this one, and I'd agree with you that a government cabinet should have one also.

Where I take issue with you is this condescending tone that permeates your posts on this topic, just as when you previously wrote that public sector workers haven't got 'real life' experience. You probably don't mean to come across like that, but it's how it looks. Nobody benefits from the two workforces being pitted against each other ironically except for those at the very top.

They don’t and you know it deep down. Look at your comments on the NHS, £25bn or whatever has lead to no improvement. All the public sector pay rises and productivity is still behind COVID levels, this is an outlier in Europe.

There’s no accountability in the public sector and when something goes bankrupt, these institutions will go cap in hand to central government. Profit motives do at least drive some innovation and efficiencies to make more money.

In the private sector, this obviously happens too but they can’t rely on government bail outs.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Its not and never will be the lib dems Pete.

They've never run the country on their own, so how do you know? Just using the logic you've applied for Reform.

 

[fatso]

You don't have to have experienced something to know that it won't go well.

I've never walked out in front of a moving train but I know it wouldn't end well if I did.

I have a feeling we will be experiencing a new Reform government at the next general election.

As ive said before, ive no idea if it will work, I will have my fingers crossed that it will, because we sure as hell can't continue with the previous model.

 

[rob9872]

They've never run the country on their own, so how do you know? Just using the logic you've applied for Reform.

Well he's never been run over by a train before, but ....

 

[Grendel]

They've never run the country on their own, so how do you know? Just using the logic you've applied for Reform.

They have no identity

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They don’t and you know it deep down. Look at your comments on the NHS, £25bn or whatever has lead to no improvement. All the public sector pay rises and productivity is still behind COVID levels, this is an outlier in Europe.

There’s no accountability in the public sector and when something goes bankrupt, these institutions will go cap in hand to central government. Profit motives do at least drive some innovation and efficiencies to make more money.

In the private sector, this obviously happens too but they can’t rely on government bail outs.

This brings me back to something you dismissed in an earlier post. How do you measure a teacher's productivity? A nurse's?

You can't apply a profiteering mentality to running a school, hospital or a care home. Well you can try, and we've seen how it ends up.

 

[fatso]

They've never run the country on their own, so how do you know? Just using the logic you've applied for Reform.

Simply because they've been around long enough to of convinced us to give them a try, and they've never earnt the publics trust or been taken seriously.

Now we have a reform party that are flying high and seemingly unstoppable (if you believe the polls)

Obviously we need to see a full manifesto and not just the "stop imigration" retrick.
But if they get it right it could be a new start for the country.
And let's be brutally honest, they would have to fuck up spectacularly to be any worse than weve seen from the Labour and Tory parties.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well he's never been run over by a train before, but ....

If he had been it might explain some of his more outlandish opinions

 

[PVA]

Thats what a lot of us said about Starmer and reeves - How is that going?

Err... OK so you have no problem with me saying it about Reform then.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Simply because they've been around long enough to of convinced us to give them a try, and they've never earnt the publics trust or been taken seriously.

Now we have a reform party that are flying high and seemingly unstoppable (if you believe the polls)

Obviously we need to see a full manifesto and not just the "stop imigration" retrick.
But if they get it right it could be a new start for the country.
And let's be brutally honest, they would have to fuck up spectacularly to be any worse than weve seen from the Labour and Tory parties.

I think they're led by a bunch of charlatans and grifters who will make the country much worse off even compared to now. They will betray most the people who they draw their biggest support from.

Farage-led parties have been around for quite some time by the way, and Reform still relies heavily on him for popularity.

 

[Grendel]

If this is true its just embarrasing

Rachel Reeves considering pay-per-mile tax for electric vehicles in budget

EV drivers would face 3p-a-mile charge on top of other road taxes to offset falling revenue from petrol and diesel cars

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Its not and never will be the lib dems Pete.

I’m sure you’re correct
A third way doesn’t have to be let’s all shit the bed