Do you want to discuss boring politics? (15 Viewers)

[rob9872]

Well well. Another case of what real hypocrisy looks like, this time the snake oil selling charlatan himself:

Whilst this small time minority party with only a handful of MP's has nothing to do with Rayner, he relies on you bringing this up. You'd think he was the opposition with how much coverage is given, but all the outrage from you and others, scouring the platforms to say 'look at what this guy is doing', fuels his coverage. You're giving him the oxygen and platform that he needs to succeed.

 

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[wingy]

Whilst this small time minority party with only a handful of MP's has nothing to do with Rayner, he relies on you bringing this up. You'd think he was the opposition with how much coverage is given, but all the outrage from you and others, scouring the platforms to say 'look at what this guy is doing', fuels his coverage. You're giving him the oxygen and platform that he needs to succeed.

I get this certainly at the point of YT coverage,has to be said BBC also.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Whilst this small time minority party with only a handful of MP's has nothing to do with Rayner, he relies on you bringing this up. You'd think he was the opposition with how much coverage is given, but all the outrage from you and others, scouring the platforms to say 'look at what this guy is doing', fuels his coverage. You're giving him the oxygen and platform that he needs to succeed.

Farage has been given coverage because lot of people like what he has to say. On Brexit and immigration, the public were happy to put their trust in the Tories between 2015 and 2024 and they violated that trust. Hence, the Tory party has imploded: no money and no activists to canvass for them.

Greens in particular argue that if they were given as much air time as Reform, they’d be doing just as well. It’s simply not the case, you had Carla Denyer in knots over defining a woman and Zach Polanski in recent days arguing someone was rightfully arrested over a tweet. I do respect Polanski for arguing for ‘no limits’ on migration because at least he’s being honest about his on the issue; Tory and Labour have been fundamentally dishonest on this.

The thing that the Greens, ‘Your Party’ and Labour get wrong is that the majority of the electorate despises their uber liberal social policies. The economic populism is in many respects popular, but the social policies a disaster.

 

[duffer]

Anyone who supported the last Tory government, or the current opposition, or Farage, and is on here to bang on about Labour "hypocrisy", has absolutely no self awareness and clearly doesn't watch the news.

As for "socialism", give it a fucking rest. Most of those who yap on about it as a vague insult can't even define it, let alone ascribe it to the current government.

As to whether Rayner should go, as a minister, I'd say yes.

It's nothing to do with Labour or Tory, it's about standards in office.

The last thing we need is more fuckwits bleating on about "they're all the same", when they're obviously not. Johnson and his useless Brexit cronies were an order of magnitude more stupid and corrupt than the current lot, but that doesn't absolve Rayner and this isn't going away. The right thing to do is step down as a minister.

The point is to try to bring some honesty and honour back to politics, and show that it's worth taking an interest in it. To demonstrate that it's not all bent, and who you vote for and what they do, matters.

Otherwise all we've got is hanging up flags and shouting at brown people because, y'know, no one listens to us.

 

[SBT]

If Labour threw around the word ‘resign’ all over the gaff in opposition, it inevitably comes back at them.

I have to say, if this is going to be the resignation standard for opposition politicians who subsequently come into power, this is a game I am excited to play.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Whilst this small time minority party with only a handful of MP's has nothing to do with Rayner, he relies on you bringing this up. You'd think he was the opposition with how much coverage is given, but all the outrage from you and others, scouring the platforms to say 'look at what this guy is doing', fuels his coverage. You're giving him the oxygen and platform that he needs to succeed.

His party effectively is the opposition. Either he's allowed to tell lies with no pushback, or we're 'giving him the oxygen he needs'.

If he had nobody refuting what he said it would be taken by more people that he was right. It's best to expose him for what he is.

 

[rob9872]

Anyone who supported the last Tory government, or the current opposition, or Farage, and is on here to bang on about Labour "hypocrisy", has absolutely no self awareness and clearly doesn't watch the news.

As for "socialism", give it a fucking rest. Most of those who yap on about it as a vague insult can't even define it, let alone ascribe it to the current government.

As to whether Rayner should go, as a minister, I'd say yes.

It's nothing to do with Labour or Tory, it's about standards in office.

The last thing we need is more fuckwits bleating on about "they're all the same", when they're obviously not. Johnson and his useless Brexit cronies were an order of magnitude more stupid and corrupt than the current lot, but that doesn't absolve Rayner and this isn't going away. The right thing to do is step down as a minister.

The point is to try to bring some honesty and honour back to politics, and show that it's worth taking an interest in it. To demonstrate that it's not all bent, and who you vote for and what they do, matters.

Otherwise all we've got is hanging up flags and shouting at brown people because, y'know, no one listens to us.

That's quite a leap ftom Rayner's stamp duty to 'shouting at brown prople'!!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Anyone who supported the last Tory government, or the current opposition, or Farage, and is on here to bang on about Labour "hypocrisy", has absolutely no self awareness and clearly doesn't watch the news.

As for "socialism", give it a fucking rest. Most of those who yap on about it as a vague insult can't even define it, let alone ascribe it to the current government.

As to whether Rayner should go, as a minister, I'd say yes.

It's nothing to do with Labour or Tory, it's about standards in office.

The last thing we need is more fuckwits bleating on about "they're all the same", when they're obviously not. Johnson and his useless Brexit cronies were an order of magnitude more stupid and corrupt than the current lot, but that doesn't absolve Rayner and this isn't going away. The right thing to do is step down as a minister.

The point is to try to bring some honesty and honour back to politics, and show that it's worth taking an interest in it. To demonstrate that it's not all bent, and who you vote for and what they do, matters.

Otherwise all we've got is hanging up flags and shouting at brown people because, y'know, no one listens to us.

We have to hold the people we like to the same standards as the people we dislike. Too many people are just incapable of that.

 

[duffer]

That's quite a leap ftom Rayner's stamp duty to 'shouting at brown prople'!!

The point is about trust in politicians. What's the most common excuse the dickheads painting roundabouts are using? No one listens to us, they're all the same.

Don't give them the ammunition.

If you don't think a large proportion of those same people have serious issues with those of a different race, religion, or ethnicity, you've not been paying attention.

 

[rob9872]

His party effectively is the opposition. Either he's allowed to tell lies with no pushback, or we're 'giving him the oxygen he needs'.

If he had nobody refuting what he said it would be taken by more people that he was right. It's best to expose him for what he is.

It's like the ignore function on here, you should use it for me, we never agree, particularly on this thread, but I'm keen to know what your views are, however polar opposite to mine and they sometimes press my buttons as I'm sure my views do for you. If I saved that and didn't see you I wouldn't engage and lots of posts wouldn't be made. You surely must accept taht even if you don'yt like him you're giving him time. I would never have seen that clip. I'll bet lots of others have posted it around Twitter and elsewhere. He'll be loving that and doesn't care how many negative comments from it. You're keeping him in the news when I'm sure you'd prefer he disappears.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I have to say, if this is going to be the resignation standard for opposition politicians who subsequently come into power, this is a game I am excited to play.

The game has already begun. Keir Starmer was arguing Johnson should sacked Raab and Cummings for minor infractions. The blowback is also on Starmer for stating how strong he is and he’d sack people accused of ‘x, y and z’ - he does sack his advisors with impunity, just not political rivals.

Rayner has blamed ‘bad advice’ on the error which doesn’t pass the smell test imo. You only seek ‘tax advice’ when you want to reduce tax liabilities so she was probably aware of the full amounts of council tax and stamp duties she’d owe. A minister actively avoiding 40k tax plus council tax reductions on two properties is a pretty big deal. Particularly, a politician who is calling for more taxes on properties and who called for resignations aggressively in opposition.

It’s reasonable for her to publish the advice she was given to back up her claims.

 

[rob9872]

The point is about trust in politicians. What's the most common excuse the dickheads painting roundabouts are using? No one listens to us, they're all the same.

Don't give them the ammunition.

If you don't think a large proportion of those same people have serious issues with those of a different race, religion, or ethnicity, you've not been paying attention.

I honestly dont see the correlation. Not between the roundabouts and the racists, but between saying all politicians are the same and the roundabouts. I'm in that camp, but not the roundabouts etc which is pretty futile (not only because of my general laziness and apathy).

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Anyone who supported the last Tory government, or the current opposition, or Farage, and is on here to bang on about Labour "hypocrisy", has absolutely no self awareness and clearly doesn't watch the news.

As for "socialism", give it a fucking rest. Most of those who yap on about it as a vague insult can't even define it, let alone ascribe it to the current government.

As to whether Rayner should go, as a minister, I'd say yes.

It's nothing to do with Labour or Tory, it's about standards in office.

The last thing we need is more fuckwits bleating on about "they're all the same", when they're obviously not. Johnson and his useless Brexit cronies were an order of magnitude more stupid and corrupt than the current lot, but that doesn't absolve Rayner and this isn't going away. The right thing to do is step down as a minister.

The point is to try to bring some honesty and honour back to politics, and show that it's worth taking an interest in it. To demonstrate that it's not all bent, and who you vote for and what they do, matters.

Otherwise all we've got is hanging up flags and shouting at brown people because, y'know, no one listens to us.

In fairness, most socialists and communists struggle to define and differentiate the terms…

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It's like the ignore function on here, you should use it for me, we never agree, particularly on this thread, but I'm keen to know what your views are, however polar opposite to mine and they sometimes press my buttons as I'm sure my views do for you. If I saved that and didn't see you I wouldn't engage and lots of posts wouldn't be made. You surely must accept taht even if you don'yt like him you're giving him time. I would never have seen that clip. I'll bet lots of others have posted it around Twitter and elsewhere. He'll be loving that and doesn't care how many negative comments from it. You're keeping him in the news when I'm sure you'd prefer he disappears.

I put people on here on ignore when they're personally insulting for no good reason. Think it's just 3 on the whole site.

You and I have political disagreements, but if I just filtered out all the political opinions I disagree with I'd be creating an artificial safe space and echo chamber. The social media algorithms have already done that for huge numbers of people. If we're going to start mending how divided our politics has become, talking to and understanding the opposing viewpoints is where it starts. We start on the basis that both want the best for the country, and I can tell that you do.

 

[duffer]

In fairness, most socialists and communists struggle to define and differentiate the terms…

No mate, they really don't. That's a myth by the thick or the lazy on the right, who simply want to use the word 'socialism' as a slur. I'm sure that's not your intention though, right?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I put people on here on ignore when they're personally insulting for no good reason. Think it's just 3 on the whole site.

You and I have political disagreements, but if I just filtered out all the political opinions I disagree with I'd be creating an artificial safe space and echo chamber. The social media algorithms have already done that for huge numbers of people. If we're going to start mending how divided our politics has become, talking to and understanding the opposing viewpoints is where it starts. We start on the basis that both want the best for the country, and I can tell that you do.

Whilst we disagree on topics politically, you do act in good faith and are respectful.

Ultimately, most people form their political views because they believe a set of ideas/policies will benefit the country. That’s something I try to keep in mind when ‘debating’ on here. Thankfully, I’ve had the benefit of having friends across the political spectrum.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Whilst we disagree on topics politically, you do act in good faith and are generally respectful.

Ultimately, most people form their political views because they believe a set of ideas/policies will benefit the country. That’s something I try to keep in mind when ‘debating’ on here. Thankfully, I’ve had the benefit of having friends across the political spectrum.

As but one example, I want rid of VAT, but that would surprise some who say 'the left are all about high taxes'. Maybe we need to start by reframing what different 'sides' think will help the country, I don't know.

During the 2014 Scottish independence referendum my wife and I did a fair bit of canvassing for the pro-Union side. Spoke to people from both sides and of course, some people will immediately turn you away, but others are willing to hear you out and understand your perspective. If by the end of the conversation you still disagree, no problem, but I think we're better off respectfully disagreeing than not listening in the first place.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I think she should resign
I don’t want perfect politicians as no one is perfect but I do want our leaders to own their mistakes

 

[duffer]

I honestly dont see the correlation. Not between the roundabouts and the racists, but between saying all politicians are the same and the roundabouts. I'm in that camp, but not the roundabouts etc which is pretty futile (not only because of my general laziness and apathy).

I get you don't agree, which is fine, but if you listen to the roundabout painters, most if them seem to have either lost or never had any faith or belief in politics. So it's become almost literally black or white, with protest and anger as their only voice.

I think that's my point, and things like Rayner appearing to be entirely hypocritical, just adds to that belief.

 

[duffer]

I think she should resign
I don’t want perfect politicians as no one is perfect but I do want our leaders to own their mistakes

I don't think she owns it if she stays in post though, mate. She could step down as a minister, accept she's shown a lack of judgement, and perhaps come back later.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No mate, they really don't. That's a myth by the thick or the lazy on the right, who simply want to use the word 'socialism' as a slur. I'm sure that's not your intention though, right?

As mentioned on this and/or previous threads, the words ‘fascists/socialist/communist’ get thrown around far too cheaply that they lose their meaning. Both sides of the political spectrum do this.

Not my intention, it was facetious and making a meta-joke that socialists will tend to argue that “real” socialism has never been tried.

I think she should resign
I don’t want perfect politicians as no one is perfect but I do want our leaders to own their mistakes

Exactly, this government wants to blame their issues on ‘bad advice’ but the buck stops with them.

In my industry, tax non-compliance (deliberate or accidental) is a serious offence and could be a career ender.

I’ve seen ‘tax experts’ attempt to exonerate Rayner by differentiating between tax avoidance, tax evasion and tax non-compliance. In HMRC’s eyes, all underpaid tax is evasion and they will demand the repayment + penalties.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I don't think she owns it if she stays in post though, mate. She could step down as a minister, accept she's shown a lack of judgement, and perhaps come back later.

I expect that is what will happen. For now there's an awful lot of MPs to choose from and if Starmer is smart about it he could placate the growing group of disillusioned ones.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I don't think she owns it if she stays in post though, mate. She could step down as a minister, accept she's shown a lack of judgement, and perhaps come back later.

Happened to Mandelson, spend some time in the wilderness, let things boil over and make a comeback.

Apparently Rayner nearly resigned over the housing targets (1.5m) and Blair intervened to convince her to stay.

Labour have fallen behind even the Tory’s miserable building targets so it’s a good way for her to disassociate from a disastrous policy area too.

 

[duffer]

As mentioned on this and/or previous threads, the words ‘fascists/socialist/communist’ get thrown around far too cheaply that they lose their meaning. Both sides of the political spectrum do this.

Not my intention, it was facetious and making a meta-joke that socialists will tend to argue that “real” socialism has never been tried.



Exactly, this government wants to blame their issues on ‘bad advice’ but the buck stops with them.

In my industry, tax non-compliance (deliberate or accidental) is a serious offence and could be a career ender.

I’ve seen ‘tax experts’ attempt to exonerate Rayner by differentiating between tax avoidance, tax evasion and tax non-compliance. In HMRC’s eyes, all underpaid tax is evasion and they will demand the repayment + penalties.

Fair enough. I apologise if I missed the joke. In fairness socialists are renowned for our lack of a sense of humour.

(Also a joke, btw, I'd find it hard to pin down too, so I wouldn't necessarily label myself as a socialist. It's not about a five year plan for tractor production though, I'll tell you that, comrade.)

 

[rob9872]

As but one example, I want rid of VAT, but that would surprise some who say 'the left are all about high taxes'. Maybe we need to start by reframing what different 'sides' think will help the country, I don't know.

During the 2014 Scottish independence referendum my wife and I did a fair bit of canvassing for the pro-Union side. Spoke to people from both sides and of course, some people will immediately turn you away, but others are willing to hear you out and understand your perspective. If by the end of the conversation you still disagree, no problem, but I think we're better off respectfully disagreeing than not listening in the first place.

The pot still needs to be collected from somewhere. It's the lack of transparency in collecting tax on already taxed income. Fuel duty I get because we pay as we use it, but there's even worse as the vat on that is tax on tax on taxed income. I'm not sure removing it is the way to go as big business would benefit far more than the consumer (and I assume you're against that ), but it certainly needs some reform.

*edit: reform with a small 'r' btw

 

[Moff]

As to whether Rayner should go, as a minister, I'd say yes.

It's nothing to do with Labour or Tory, it's about standards in office.

The point is to try to bring some honesty and honour back to politics, and show that it's worth taking an interest in it. To demonstrate that it's not all bent, and who you vote for and what they do, matters.

I would say this is definitely how I feel about all our politicians.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Fair enough. I apologise if I missed the joke. In fairness socialists are renowned for our lack of a sense of humour.

(Also a joke, btw, I'd find it hard to pin down too, so I wouldn't necessarily label myself as a socialist. It's not about a five year plan for tractor production though, I'll tell you that, comrade.)

Nah, as I said, it was a meta-joke so it’d be unfair to expect anyone to ‘get it’.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Happened to Mandelson, spend some time in the wilderness, let things boil over and make a comeback.

Apparently Rayner nearly resigned over the housing targets (1.5m) and Blair intervened to convince her to stay.

Labour have fallen behind even the Tory’s miserable building targets so it’s a good way for her to disassociate from a disastrous policy area too.

Don’t know whether it’s boiling over it’s appropriate there’s an acknowledgment that it’s not on but doesn’t necessarily mean she loses her job

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The pot still needs to be collected from somewhere. It's the lack of transparency in collecting tax on already taxed income. Fuel duty I get because we pay as we use it, but there's even worse as the vat on that is tax on tax on taxed income. I'm not sure removing it is the way to go as big business would benefit far more than the consumer (and I assume you're against that ), but it certainly needs some reform.

*edit: reform with a small 'r' btw

My understanding of VAT is that it's a mostly regressive tax that's making the cost of living and running small businesses higher than it needs to be. I'm sure we could look at ways of at least reducing it though, it was held at 17.5% for quite some time before it went up to 20 (I think under Cameron?).

Happy to have my mind changed, but adding 20% to your bills isn't inconsiderable.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Don’t know whether it’s boiling over it’s appropriate there’s an acknowledgment that it’s not on but doesn’t necessarily mean she loses her job

‘Tory tax loophole’ perhaps Rayner asked for Jeremy Hunt’s tax advisors number in recent months.



You can’t make this up, there’s tens of tweets like this and the mantra ‘it’s always one rule for them, and another for us’ was repeated ad nauseam in opposition.

Hypocrisy is on of the worst crimes in politics.

 

[rob9872]

My understanding of VAT is that it's a mostly regressive tax that's making the cost of living and running small businesses higher than it needs to be. I'm sure we could look at ways of at least reducing it though, it was held at 17.5% for quite some time before it went up to 20 (I think under Cameron?).

Happy to have my mind changed, but adding 20% to your bills isn't inconsiderable.

I liked it at 17.5% as I could still calculate it in my head and everyone thinks it's some kind of wizardry. Any halfwit can calculate 20%

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

‘Tory tax loophole’ perhaps Rayner asked for Jeremy Hunt’s tax advisors number in recent months.



You can’t make this up, there’s tens of tweets like this and the mantra ‘it’s always one rule for them, and another for us’ was repeated ad nauseam in opposition.

Hypocrisy is on of the worst crimes in politics.

Well she can change that narrative by resigning then not necessarily as an mp but as deputy leader

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I liked it at 17.5% as I could still calculate it in my head and everyone thinks it's some kind of wizardry. Any halfwit can calculate 20%

There you go, win/win policy on SBT

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well she can change that narrative by resigning then not necessarily as an mp but as deputy leader

The law allows for constituents to recall their own MPs now. If they wish to go that far they can

 

[Grendel]

I’m pretty certain Rayner justified the second residence by declaring she was paying second home council tax didn’t she?