Embarrassing (17 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

In practice, this is what’s been happening and even where claims are denied, v few people are actually removed.



What else is driving the increase?

The Rwanda scheme was failing because the courts were grounding flights which demonstrates the need to repeal certain laws and pass primary legislation.

Labour are looking to do their own reprocessing scheme and if anyone can put 2 and 2 together, tells you that they know it was a mistake to scrap the plan without an alternative.

The Rwanda scheme was starting at hundreds to an unspecified number and cost £140k per person plus a yearly fee in the millions. At 30k migrants you’re looking at what? A couple of billion a year minimum? And realistically you’re talking maybe 2-3k a year which gives people a 90% chance of not going to Rwanda.

When Israel tried this they found most of the people disappeared back into smuggling routes immediately, from what I can see no country has managed it for more than a couple of thousand a year max an that’s just not deterrent numbers.

 

---

[PVA]

will address the rest but can we stop with:

“the vast majority are working age males from violent countries” bit?

Lets take it bit by bit: “from violent countries” well yeah, otherwise you’d complain there’s no need to claim asylum.

“working age males”

Why might this be? I was listening to something yesterday on R4 about the migrants who died in the back of a truck in Austria about ten years ago. Was really interesting actually as it interviewed the family of those who sent their son and some of the smugglers who are now in jail.

Anyway, the journey involved paying large amounts of cash to a smuggler and basically being told to get into whatever cramped transport was used, sometimes left in a random Serbian forest for two days to fend for themselves until the next guy is available. Theres often violence in cramped accommodations with no food and water. These people are literal people traffickers.

What do you think happens if a woman elderly person or child tries to make this journey? The elderly will likely die from dehydration and exhaustion. The children if they don’t die are likely to be abducted as they can’t fend for themselves and the women too likely to disappear into sex trafficking. So the only people likely to make it are working age men.

The guy who died was escaping ISIS and heading for Germany. They interviewed his grandad who paid and said they sent him because he could have a new life even if they couldn’t make it and didn’t want to leave their home.

I’m really not sure what you want long distance migrants to look like if not “working age”/“fighting age”/“spilling your woman and taking your pint age” men

I find it remarkable this stuff needs explaining.

'Tell you what love, why don't you take the kids (aged 4 and 2) on that incredibly perilous journey. I'll wait it out here and come over on a cushty flight once you've got yourselves settled'.

 

[Sick Boy]

The Rwanda scheme was starting at hundreds to an unspecified number and cost £140k per person plus a yearly fee in the millions. At 30k migrants you’re looking at what? A couple of billion a year minimum? And realistically you’re talking maybe 2-3k a year which gives people a 90% chance of not going to Rwanda.

When Israel tried this they found most of the people disappeared back into smuggling routes immediately, from what I can see no country has managed it for more than a couple of thousand a year max an that’s just not deterrent numbers.

The Italian scheme with Albania has also been a failure. I think they plan to use them as 'repatriation centres' after expulsion from Italy.

 

[SHUNT31]

I find it remarkable this stuff needs explaining.

'Tell you what love, why don't you take the kids (aged 4 and 2) on that incredibly perilous journey. I'll wait it out here and come over on a cushty flight once you've got yourselves settled'.

I assume you do not have a wife and children?

If shit hit the fan here, there’s absolutely no way I would leave mine. Not a chance. I’d protect them the best I could, with my life if needed.

You’re actually saying that if the UK was a warzone you could understand men leaving their infant children to flee?

I find it remarkable that people have this thought process.

 

[PVA]

I assume you do not have a wife and children?

If shit hit the fan here, there’s absolutely no way I would leave mine. Not a chance. I’d protect them the best I could, with my life if needed.

You’re actually saying that if the UK was a warzone you could understand men leaving their infant children to flee?

I find it remarkable that people have this thought process.

I have a wife and two kids, aged 4 and 2.

I don't think you appreciate how difficult the journey is for these people, and nor do I think you appreciate the heartbreak and dilemma of having to make that decision - taking your children with you or leaving them.

I don't think anyone is going to choose to leave their kids in a town that is being bombed every day. But they may move them to a safer part of that country, or into a neighbouring country that is safer (e.g. Turkey, for those in Syria - where there are big Syrian refugee communities).

 

[chiefdave]

What I took from it is that the council are happy to grant planning permission for a hotel with paying customers, but if they intend to just build a ‘hotel’ really functioning as an asylum seeker holding pen, permission denied.

Rightfully so and hopefully it triggers what’s needed to stop using hotels for this and to return them to being used by the public. The people profiting from cramming people into their hotels while running a bare minimum staff and service though will clearly not want it to stop though.

Kind of but its not a new hotel so not really a case of them applying to build a hotel when really they want to build something else. The hotel already exists and is operation so this verdict would seem to indicate that a hotel can no longer be classed as a hotel depending on who is staying there.

Now I haven't read the entire case so I don't know if the judge clarified this but at what point does this kick in, is there a certain percentage of rooms that have to be taken? What groups does it apply to just asylum seekers? Hotels, and B&Bs, are used by local authorities for many other purposes, will the same apply?

Surely this means we’re going to have to pay migrants for food then as we can’t supply it if we’re putting them all in houses instead?

I'm sure councils will now be rushing to lodge similar cases so lets assume this has set a precedent. That's 32,345 that will need to be moved into dispersal accommodation, ie private rental flats and houses. The bill is going to go through the roof and its not like we've in the midst of a housing crisis.

 

[Marty]

I have a wife and two kids, aged 4 and 2.

I don't think you appreciate how difficult the journey is for these people, and nor do I think you appreciate the heartbreak and dilemma of having to make that decision - taking your children with you or leaving them.

I don't think anyone is going to choose to leave their kids in a town that is being bombed every day. But they may move them to a safer part of that country, or into a neighbouring country that is safer (e.g. Turkey, for those in Syria - where there are big Syrian refugee communities).

So stay in Turkey together as a family. No chance in hell would I leave the family behind. Absolute coward behaviour.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Kind of but its not a new hotel so not really a case of them applying to build a hotel when really they want to build something else. The hotel already exists and is operation so this verdict would seem to indicate that a hotel can no longer be classed as a hotel depending on who is staying there.

Now I haven't read the entire case so I don't know if the judge clarified this but at what point does this kick in, is there a certain percentage of rooms that have to be taken? What groups does it apply to just asylum seekers? Hotels, and B&Bs, are used by local authorities for many other purposes, will the same apply?

I'm sure councils will now be rushing to lodge similar cases so lets assume this has set a precedent. That's 32,345 that will need to be moved into dispersal accommodation, ie private rental flats and houses. The bill is going to go through the roof and its not like we've in the midst of a housing crisis.

Sure, but they planned to use 100% of the rooms for asylum seekers. It’s ceased to become a hotel at that point.

 

[chiefdave]

The anti social behaviour I’m on about is referring to people starting trouble while ‘protesting’ at these sites.

The leader of the council in Epping has given a statement where they pretty much said they won this case because there had been violent protests and there was a fear of further violent protests.

Not only does this not seem to match what was said by the judge surely its an incredibly stupid thing to say. What will people do now if they want a hotel housing asylum seekers shut down and they've been told that violent protests will lead to this?

 

[PVA]

So stay in Turkey together as a family. No chance in hell would I leave the family behind. Absolute coward behaviour.

Surely risking your life to try and give your kids a better future is the exact opposite of cowardly behaviour?

 

[Grendel]

Surely risking your life to try and give your kids a better future is the exact opposite of cowardly behaviour?

How many have wives and children?

 

[Marty]

Surely risking your life to try and give your kids a better future is the exact opposite of cowardly behaviour?

Risking your life leaching of European countries as you pass through, sounds an absolutely horrendous experience.

 

[SHUNT31]

I have a wife and two kids, aged 4 and 2.

I don't think you appreciate how difficult the journey is for these people, and nor do I think you appreciate the heartbreak and dilemma of having to make that decision - taking your children with you or leaving them.

I don't think anyone is going to choose to leave their kids in a town that is being bombed every day. But they may move them to a safer part of that country, or into a neighbouring country that is safer (e.g. Turkey, for those in Syria - where there are big Syrian refugee

I’m sorry, but you don’t leave them. Under no circumstances do you do that and I really struggle with the fact that there are fathers out there that would.

So if for arguments sake you have found safe refuge in Turkey, with your family. Why are they then leaving them to come to the UK? It won’t be for the family ties - they’re in Turkey. It won’t be to work as you have said multiple times they can’t - it almost certainly won’t be for the English language which is irrelevant anyway as Turkey’s second language is English.

 

[PVA]

Risking your life leaching of European countries as you pass through, sounds an absolutely horrendous experience.

Ah yes of course, they're travelling on the Orient Express all the way through Europe. What a delightful experience it must be.

 

[chiefdave]

Sure, but they planned to use 100% of the rooms for asylum seekers. It’s ceased to become a hotel at that point.

But how is that going to be defined? If there's some event at the CBS and the organisers books 100% of the hotel rooms its still a hotel and I don't think anyone would argue otherwise so essentially we're saying certain types of people shouldn't be in hotels.

Who is on the list of unacceptable hotel guests and at what percentage does the hotel get shut down? Hotels have been used for those released from prison, the homeless, emergency family accommodation, victims of domestic violence etc. All services with similar problems, that the specialist accommodation is full. Does the same apply to them?

This is the problem, there's not an easy & legal answer to this problem, certainly not in the short term. So every 'victory' like this will have a knock on effect.

 

[Sick Boy]

as Turkey’s second language is English.

Based on what?

 

[SHUNT31]

Based on what?

It’s taught in schools as a second language for a start.

Out of all that I wrote, this is the only thing you have commented on.

It’s nice knowing you agree that the theory I was replying to was absolutely nonsensical.

 

[Grendel]

Ah yes of course, they're travelling on the Orient Express all the way through Europe. What a delightful experience it must be.

If they can pay boat gangsters thousands for crossings they could afford it that’s for sure.

 

[Sick Boy]

It’s taught in schools as a second language for a start.

Out of all that I wrote, this is the only thing you have commented on.

It’s nice knowing you agree that the theory I was replying to was absolutely nonsensical.

It may be taught in schools but it’s not an official or recognised second language.

 

[SHUNT31]

It may be taught in schools but it’s not an official or recognised second language.

I don’t care if it is or not. That would not even be a factor in a sane persons mind anyway.

 

[mmttww]

If they can pay boat gangsters thousands for crossings they could afford it that’s for sure.

Don't think the Orient Express goes through the tunnel but I'm there on Fri so I can ask if you want?

 

[Grendel]

Don't think the Orient Express goes through the tunnel but I'm there on Fri so I can ask if you want?

The tunnel isn’t used as a way of getting here anyway - Brexit stopped that route

 

[chiefdave]

And there it is, other councils taking urgent action to get cases into court hoping for the same ruling and Farage urging people to get out and protest at hotels which obviously won't help the situation.

More asylum hotels face legal challenge after court ruling

Nigel Farage says Reform UK-controlled councils will do everything in their power to close the hotels.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[SBT]

What else is driving the increase?

You think the rise in migration flows hinges entirely on the Rwanda scheme?

Can you show me the impact on migration flows from when the scheme was still government policy?

 

[David O'Day]

Meanwhile the cunts who handout stickers like this are the kind of folk who paint an innocent man as a nonce for playing the park with his wifes grandkids

Family in fear after Tommy Robinson shares video of black man with white granddaughters

Exclusive: Olajuwon Ayeni racially abused and falsely labelled a paedophile as far right weaponises clip of family in park

www.theguardian.com

 

[mmttww]

The tunnel isn’t used as a way of getting here...

Yeah, got that, just not sure I follow the idea that if they can afford to pay gangsters to get them across the channel they'll also have the readies to ride luxury trains across the continent first.

 

[shmmeee]

The Italian scheme with Albania has also been a failure. I think they plan to use them as 'repatriation centres' after expulsion from Italy.

Denmark have said they’re going to do it but not actually sent anyone and they’re one of the tougher EU countries on asylum right now from what I see. Their centre left govt is actually doing what ours is trying and failing to do in neutralising the far right it seems.

 

[shmmeee]

I’m sorry, but you don’t leave them. Under no circumstances do you do that and I really struggle with the fact that there are fathers out there that would.

So if for arguments sake you have found safe refuge in Turkey, with your family. Why are they then leaving them to come to the UK? It won’t be for the family ties - they’re in Turkey. It won’t be to work as you have said multiple times they can’t - it almost certainly won’t be for the English language which is irrelevant anyway as Turkey’s second language is English.

They can’t work while their claim is being processed. Of course they can work if it’s accepted.

The vast majority do stay near their country but for some they are sent to extended family in Europe because they’d rather pay tens of thousands to people smugglers in the hope of a life in Europe than go through a camp in Turkey.

The why is a total red herring. Once there here even if you deny them the right to asylum you’ve got to something with them. “Why do people want to come to one of the richest countries on the planet which has exported its culture and language around the world?” Is a bit of a silly question though.

 

[chiefdave]

The vast majority do stay near their country

This is a huge part of the problem. No matter how much evidence you give that they're not 'all coming here' or that they aren't all single males its ignored.

Its hard to have a sensible conversation about what is a reasonable number of genuine asylum seekers to take when on one side of the argument people think we are taking far more than we are and that other countries are not.

 

[Grendel]

This is a huge part of the problem. No matter how much evidence you give that they're not 'all coming here' or that they aren't all single males its ignored.

Its hard to have a sensible conversation about what is a reasonable number of genuine asylum seekers to take when on one side of the argument people think we are taking far more than we are and that other countries are not.

I don’t think people are interested in what other countries take are they?

The main issue is the illegal method of entry and the disturbance to local communities through inappropriate accommodation. Also the fact there’s a likelihood a significant amount will be not genuine.

I mean with now seem to be assuming most are genuine from turkey and the wife and children can stay in the country as it’s safe anyway.

 

[Para1140]

 

[Ccfcisparks]

View attachment 45328

Where can I buy that?

 

[Nick]

Where can I buy that?

Dhgate

 

[PVA]

View attachment 45328

Christ, that's an actual official Reform tweet

 

[shmmeee]

This is a huge part of the problem. No matter how much evidence you give that they're not 'all coming here' or that they aren't all single males its ignored.

Its hard to have a sensible conversation about what is a reasonable number of genuine asylum seekers to take when on one side of the argument people think we are taking far more than we are and that other countries are not.

I mean for many in this thread clearly the answer is “0”, but even then what do you do with them? We’re a rich country, we’re going to have people try and get here. We can’t deport them all, it costs loads more to imprison them than we’re paying in hotels, and considering what they go through to get here it doesn’t seem like three square in a cell is going to be a huge deterrent. And at some point they get out and you’re back to square one if you don’t have a return agreement with their country, if you can even prove where their country is.