Embarrassing (3 Viewers)

[bigfatronssba]

What comes next if the next Government Labour/Tory or even Reform fail to resolve this will be bad.

Farage said that himself.

He said if he doesn't become PM, the left will regret it for decades. Because the alternative really will be a far right dictator (and actual far right, not just people who want the law enforced)

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Roman Britain carried on like that for about 100 years, till it had enough of foreign invaders raiding our wealth, and got the Anglo Saxons in.

Nothing works anymore. Anything run by the state is a joke

Civilisations don't collapse in a day.

The Romans were foreign invaders!

 

[bigfatronssba]

Oh dear

What?

 

[mmttww]

from a Rupert Lowe X CCFC sticker collab to gunboat patrols to a deep dive on Roman history. Internet!

 

[bigfatronssba]

The Romans were foreign invaders!

After 200 years they were occupiers rather than invaders. Also had the common sense to leave the rural Brit alone after the Boudica fiasco

 

[skybluetony176]

It also coincided with a reduction in the amount of people coming in via the backs of trucks, so that must mean leaving the Dublin agreement was the right thing to do

If you think swapping less than 10k a year for more than 30k a year was the right thing to do then I admire your charitable nature.

Then there’s the problem of the loss of ability to return them via the Dublin regulation. But then again with your charitable nature you probably don’t want them to leave.

 

[mmttww]

Boudica Fiasco

another one for the 'great band name' list.

 

[CCFCSteve]

May I politely suggest that you read up on the Dublin Regulation and why we had to leave it.

Leaving the the Dublin Regulation makes it more difficult to send boat arrivals back to France. It also means it doesn’t matter if they have already been granted asylum in an EU country they can still claim asylum in the UK.

It’s no coincidence that leaving the Dublin agreement has coincided with a massive rise in the trend of boat crossings and therefore arrivals.

This is another Brexit myth Tony. Have a look at the numbers. We were a net taker under Dublin agreement in some years and also only had 8% returns accepted in 2016

Bizarrely you could argue that returns have increased because we left (I wouldn’t though as it’s just cos the numbers have increased)

‘Around 34,000 people were returned from the UK in 2024 – the most since 2017, and 25% more than in 2023. Returns fell sharply in the second half of the 2010s, declined further during the pandemic, then began to partially recover. However, numbers remained lower than a decade before’

This is the latest

In 2024, under the Dublin Regulation, Germany (74 581) and France (30 986) reported the largest number of outgoing requests to other EU countries; the largest number of incoming requests was recorded by Italy (42 807), followed by Croatia (23 721), Greece (17 163) and Germany (14 977).

In 2024, Germany and France recorded the largest number of transfers following the Dublin procedure: Germany reported 5 827 outgoing and 4 591 incoming transfers, while France reported 2 624 outgoing and 2 201 incoming transfers.

So looking at Germany, still running at about 8% of outgoing requests granted and net (1,200) , hardly worth the bother !

The number of crossings have increased because France haven’t made any effort to stop them, so unsurprisingly more people have tried !

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Farage said that himself.

He said if he doesn't become PM, the left will regret it for decades. Because the alternative really will be a far right dictator (and actual far right, not just people who want the law enforced)

When people call Farage “far right”, it’s a fundamental misuse of the term. By most historical standards, he’s just a typical 80/90s era-Tory and would’ve remained as such had he not been kicked out over his Brexiteer views.

The failure of the political class to address immigration has started to legitimise Tommy Robinson which is a concerning development. What hasn’t helped is the political left’s wide use of ‘far right’ and ‘racist’ that the terms have lost a lot of their power and meaning.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

This is another Brexit myth Tony. Have a look at the numbers. We were a net taker under Dublin agreement in some years and also only had 8% returns accepted in 2016

Bizarrely you could argue that returns have increased because we left (I wouldn’t though as it’s just cos the numbers have increased)

‘Around 34,000 people were returned from the UK in 2024 – the most since 2017, and 25% more than in 2023. Returns fell sharply in the second half of the 2010s, declined further during the pandemic, then began to partially recover. However, numbers remained lower than a decade before’

This is the latest

In 2024, under the Dublin Regulation, Germany (74 581) and France (30 986) reported the largest number of outgoing requests to other EU countries; the largest number of incoming requests was recorded by Italy (42 807), followed by Croatia (23 721), Greece (17 163) and Germany (14 977).

In 2024, Germany and France recorded the largest number of transfers following the Dublin procedure: Germany reported 5 827 outgoing and 4 591 incoming transfers, while France reported 2 624 outgoing and 2 201 incoming transfers.

So looking at Germany, still running at about 8% of outgoing requests granted and net, hardly worth the bother !

The number of crossings have increased because France haven’t made any effort to stop them, so unsurprisingly more people have tried !

Sky Blue Tony spouts this as if this same issue isn’t tearing apart the political class in EU nations…

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

When people call Farage “far right”, it’s a fundamental misuse of the term. By most historical standards, he’s just a typical 80/90s era-Tory and would’ve remained as such had he not been kicked out over his Brexiteer views.

The failure of the political class to address immigration has started to legitimise Tommy Robinson which is a concerning development. What hasn’t helped is the political left’s wide use of ‘far right’ and ‘racist’ that the terms have lost a lot of their power and meaning.

People get called ‘hard left’ for much much less and it’s because the Overton window has shifted to the right in that time.

 

[shmmeee]

Are we doing “there’s no room”? Got to love the classics.

Roman Britain carried on like that for about 100 years, till it had enough of foreign invaders raiding our wealth, and got the Anglo Saxons in.

Nothing works anymore. Anything run by the state is a joke

Civilisations don't collapse in a day.

I mean I just spent a week in Europe and everything seemed to work pretty good. The US is an absolute economic powerhouse. It’s a great time to be whatever sort of person you are.

I’m just not seeing this “fall of Rome” stuff you guys keep going on about.

 

[shmmeee]

When people call Farage “far right”, it’s a fundamental misuse of the term. By most historical standards, he’s just a typical 80/90s era-Tory and would’ve remained as such had he not been kicked out over his Brexiteer views.

The failure of the political class to address immigration has started to legitimise Tommy Robinson which is a concerning development. What hasn’t helped is the political left’s wide use of ‘far right’ and ‘racist’ that the terms have lost a lot of their power and meaning.

Fucking he’ll man you write some crazy shit but this must be up there for the craziest.

“Farage is just an 80s Tory” fuuuuck me. No.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

After 200 years they were occupiers rather than invaders. Also had the common sense to leave the rural Brit alone after the Boudica fiasco

So foreign invaders who stay long enough are ok?

 

[skybluetony176]

This is another Brexit myth Tony. Have a look at the numbers. We were a net taker under Dublin agreement in some years and also only had 8% returns accepted in 2016

Bizarrely you could argue that returns have increased because we left (I wouldn’t though as it’s just cos the numbers have increased)

‘Around 34,000 people were returned from the UK in 2024 – the most since 2017, and 25% more than in 2023. Returns fell sharply in the second half of the 2010s, declined further during the pandemic, then began to partially recover. However, numbers remained lower than a decade before’

This is the latest

In 2024, under the Dublin Regulation, Germany (74 581) and France (30 986) reported the largest number of outgoing requests to other EU countries; the largest number of incoming requests was recorded by Italy (42 807), followed by Croatia (23 721), Greece (17 163) and Germany (14 977).

In 2024, Germany and France recorded the largest number of transfers following the Dublin procedure: Germany reported 5 827 outgoing and 4 591 incoming transfers, while France reported 2 624 outgoing and 2 201 incoming transfers.

So looking at Germany, still running at about 8% of outgoing requests granted and net (1,200) , hardly worth the bother !

The number of crossings have increased because France haven’t made any effort to stop them, so unsurprisingly more people have tried !

It isn’t for one simple fact. The reason we were a net taker was a political decision made by the then government. Them choosing to not use the Dublin regulation is not a failure of the Dublin regulation. You can argue it’s a failure of government if you like because the simple fact is the government never fully utilised it.

 

[CCFCSteve]

People get called ‘hard left’ for much much less and it’s because the Overton window has shifted to the right in that time.

Hmmm, in the last decade or so ?

Socially - LBGTQ rights, understanding and prominence far greater than it’s ever been

Migration - highest migration and loosest controls ever

Tax/welfare - increasing tax take from higher earners, increasing welfare bill. Throw in furlough as well

It was also the further left that wanted longer, harsher lockdowns during covid.

I agree that the very richest (corporate and personal) have benefitted from lax global tax regs but other than that I’d say it’s hard to argue Overton window has shifted right. I’d actually argue it’s gone the other way which has rightly or wrongly triggered some negative reactions in the post Covid period.

Social media has just continued to sow division on both sides though and why neither side want to acknowledge this ill never know….maybe is because people are stuck in their echo chambers so don’t even realise it’s happening

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Hmmm, in the last decade or so ?

Socially - LBGTQ rights, understanding and prominence far greater than it’s ever been

Migration - highest migration and loosest controls ever

Tax/welfare - increasing tax take from higher earners, increasing welfare bill. Throw in furlough as well

It was also the further left that wanted longer, harsher lockdowns during covid.

I agree that the very richest (corporate and personal) have benefitted from lax global tax regs but other than that I’d say it’s hard to argue Overton window has shifted right. I’d actually argue it’s gone the other way which has rightly or wrongly triggered some negative reactions in the post Covid period.

Social media has just continued to sow division on both sides though and why neither side want to acknowledge this ill never know….maybe is because people are stuck in their echo chambers so don’t even realise it’s happening

It’s just how I feel, whether it’s just my perception or not. The idea that it’s in fact shifted the other way when that fascist pig across the pond’s got elected I find pretty absurd also.

There are no populist left leaders anywhere except Mexico from what I see, the rest are centre right, right or far right. Our own Starmer could perhaps be centre

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

People get called ‘hard left’ for much much less and it’s because the Overton window has shifted to the right in that time.

Agreed, that ‘hard left’ has been thrown around too much in the past.

I’d argue the trend started with decrying anyone to right of David Cameron as ‘fascist’ probably led to Corbyn’s vilification using similar tactics…

I suppose that’s beside the point.

 

[shmmeee]

It’s just how I feel, whether it’s just my perception or not. The idea that it’s in fact shifted the other way when that fascist pig across the pond’s got elected I find pretty absurd also.

There are no populist left leaders anywhere except Mexico from what I see, the rest are centre right, right or far right. Our own Starmer could perhaps be centre

Quite literally the most left wing PM of anyone in this threads lifetime and you get “maybe centre I guess “

Ma maybe it’s time to realise whatever it is you want you’re in a tiny minority wanting it.

 

[CCFCSteve]

It isn’t for one simple fact. The reason we were a net taker was a political decision made by the then government. Them choosing to not use the Dublin regulation is not a failure of the Dublin regulation. You can argue it’s a failure of government if you like because the simple fact is the government never fully utilised it.

Youve ignored the main point. That even though Germany put in 74k DR requests only 6k were granted and then they had 4.5k incomings granted. Net 1.5k.Whats the point ? I also said we used to try to use DR and last figure I saw was 8% granted.

Looking at the figures the argument that leaving the EU/Dublin regulation as a reason for increased migrant crossings/asylum attempts and inability to return far greater numbers, is frankly bollocks

The only Brexit link is France have probably made even less effort to stop crossings since

 

[shmmeee]

Youve ignored the main point. That even though Germany put in 74k DR requests only 6k were granted and then they had 4.5k incomings granted. Net 1.5k.Whats the point ? I also said we used to try to use DR and last figure I saw was 8% granted.

Looking at the figures the argument that leaving the EU/Dublin regulation as a reason for increased migrant crossings/asylum attempts and inability to return far greater numbers, is frankly bollocks

The only Brexit link is France have probably made even less effort since

So what’s your alternate hypothesis? There was no appreciate jump in asylum seekers on boats (or any other asylum seekers) world wide. What was the event that you think made it jump here in 2020?

You keep saying “it’s bollocks” evidence free but Occams razor man. We have a massive change in border policy and a massive change in what’s happening at our borders at the exact same time and you want us to believe they aren’t linked. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I think it’s probably time people people stopped being so defensive of Brexit by reflex. It’s been almost a decade and it’s clearly not done anything claimed at best and seemingly made many of the issues people complained about in the lead up a lot worse.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Quite literally the most left wing PM of anyone in this threads lifetime and you get “maybe centre I guess “

Ma maybe it’s time to realise whatever it is you want you’re in a tiny minority wanting it.

Blair and Brown were far more progressive. The former also had something called charisma while the latter had something called beliefs.

The current wet lettuce in charge has nothing but a spectacular talent for pissing everyone off.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

So what’s your alternate hypothesis? There was no appreciate jump in asylum seekers on boats (or any other asylum seekers) world wide. What was the event that you think made it jump here in 2020?

You keep saying “it’s bollocks” evidence free but Occams razor man. We have a massive change in border policy and a massive change in what’s happening at our borders at the exact same time and you want us to believe they aren’t linked. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I think it’s probably time people people stopped being so defensive of Brexit by reflex. It’s been almost a decade and it’s clearly not done anything claimed at best and seemingly made many of the issues people complained about in the lead up a lot worse.

What’s even more frustrating is Starmer to his credit has tried to make Brexit work and agreed a trade deal with the EU that cuts red tape and will eventually lead to lower costs…

he’s been hammered for that. I’m not quite sure brexiteers know what they want

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Are we doing “there’s no room”? Got to love the classics.


I mean I just spent a week in Europe and everything seemed to work pretty good. The US is an absolute economic powerhouse. It’s a great time to be whatever sort of person you are.

I’m just not seeing this “fall of Rome” stuff you guys keep going on about.

Ordinary people who actually live in those countries don’t tend to agree with your tourist experiences. People see the way the communities and way of life is going and they don’t like it.

On the ‘fall of Rome’ point, it’s not as if Roman society and elites were aware their societies were decaying and on the route to collapse in the moment.

On crime statistics, the data can be flawed or skewed by wider societal changes. Specifically, an aging population should see crime reduced because most crimes are perpetrated by young-middle aged men. So if crime is stagnant but your population aging, that’s a worrying sign. Crime is one of those areas where anecdotal evidence is valid even if it’s at odds with the data. Why? If people feel less ‘safe’, they alter their behaviour to avoid being victimised in the first place. These feelings are based on something real and as Jeff Bezos famously said ‘if the data and anecdotes are at odds, anecdotes are usually more accurate’.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

So what’s your alternate hypothesis? There was no appreciate jump in asylum seekers on boats (or any other asylum seekers) world wide. What was the event that you think made it jump here in 2020?

You keep saying “it’s bollocks” evidence free but Occams razor man. We have a massive change in border policy and a massive change in what’s happening at our borders at the exact same time and you want us to believe they aren’t linked. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I think it’s probably time people people stopped being so defensive of Brexit by reflex. It’s been almost a decade and it’s clearly not done anything claimed at best and seemingly made many of the issues people complained about in the lead up a lot worse.

It started in 2018 before Brexit.

The issue we have now, in my view, is that we’re wedded to the Human Rights Act and ECHR which has made it increasingly difficult to remove people in violation of our laws.

There is overwhelming public support across all major parties to deport foreign criminals, even 65% of Green supporters would favour deporting sex offenders. Likewise, most people want people living here illegally, claiming benefits or working in low skilled professions (with or without a visa) to be removed.

 

[skybluetony176]

Youve ignored the main point. That even though Germany put in 74k DR requests only 6k were granted and then they had 4.5k incomings granted. Net 1.5k.Whats the point ? I also said we used to try to use DR and last figure I saw was 8% granted.

Looking at the figures the argument that leaving the EU/Dublin regulation as a reason for increased migrant crossings/asylum attempts and inability to return far greater numbers, is frankly bollocks

The only Brexit link is France have probably made even less effort to stop crossings since

So you’re basically saying that Germany would have had 6K more asylum seekers if it were not for the DR. You are also ignoring that Germany still prioritises DR as a route to returning asylum seekers because it’s success rate is high compared to other routes. 6K also won’t be the final figure for returns also as many appealed the decision so any lost appeal will be added to that number.

We went from a position of having a route to return to having no route to return. You can’t really be suggesting that the latter is no worse than the former. If we could use the DR to return 8% of all boat crossings now it would work in more than one way. Not least because not having an agreement is a very easy sell for the smuggling gangs. If the government entered an agreement today that guaranteed 8% of all arrivals would be sent back we’d all take it in a heartbeat. Except reform and the Tories of course who would no doubt vote against it as they have Labours other initiatives to tackle the issue.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

So you’re basically saying that Germany would have had 6K more asylum seekers if it were not for the DR. You are also ignoring that Germany still prioritises DR as a route to returning asylum seekers because it’s success rate is high compared to other routes. 6K also won’t be the final figure for returns also as many appealed the decision so any lost appeal will be added to that number.

We went from a position of having a route to return to having no route to return. You can’t really be suggesting that the latter is no worse than the former. If we could use the DR to return 8% of all boat crossings now it would work in more than one way. Not least because not having an agreement is a very easy sell for the smuggling gangs. If the government entered an agreement today that guaranteed 8% of all arrivals would be sent back we’d all take it in a heartbeat. Except reform and the Tories of course who would no doubt vote against it as they have Labours other initiatives to tackle the issue.

How do you think the transfer window is going mr ukip? Do you think we’ve got enough depth for the season ahead or we need a few CB’s?

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

@Nick @Sick Boy why did the @Ashdown @Chicken Mcgraw and my reply get deleted? Weird how the admins are deleting stuff, are we always at risk of you lot randomly deleting stuff we post from now on?

 

[CCFCSteve]

So what’s your alternate hypothesis? There was no appreciate jump in asylum seekers on boats (or any other asylum seekers) world wide. What was the event that you think made it jump here in 2020?

You keep saying “it’s bollocks” evidence free but Occams razor man. We have a massive change in border policy and a massive change in what’s happening at our borders at the exact same time and you want us to believe they aren’t linked. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I think it’s probably time people people stopped being so defensive of Brexit by reflex. It’s been almost a decade and it’s clearly not done anything claimed at best and seemingly made many of the issues people complained about in the lead up a lot worse.

I don’t disagree with issues since Brexit but I’m not accepting something that is not backed up. Did you read my posts ? I’ve explained that using DR would not have made a significant difference and provided data to back that up . I also stated that France has made little effort post Brexit. We all know in recent years there is now a network of gangs and people traffickers that have ramped up. There is very little deterrent, we treat asylum seekers pretty well, find it difficult to remove failed attempts etc etc. these are the reasons.

Here’s some more post Brexit data, asylum applications in EU went up from 421k in 2020 to around 1m excluding Ukraine in 2024.

EU+ asylum applications decrease by 11% in 2024, and some changing trends established

The EU cannot physically control their borders and I guess want us to take our fair share of applicants. Would DR make a difference, probably a minor one. You believe what you want though

 

[SBT]

@Nick @Sick Boy why did the @Ashdown @Chicken Mcgraw and my reply get deleted? Weird how the admins are deleting stuff, are we always at risk of you lot randomly deleting stuff we post from now on?

Dom, I think you delete more posts on here than all the admins put together

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Dom, I think you delete more posts on here than all the admins put together

Think @shmmeee had a hissy fit and cried to the admins about it, spouts all his shite on here then cries when someone makes a comment back

I’m learning to be more measured so not doing it as much now

 

[SBT]

It's gone quiet

Do people actually think that immigrant housing could be fixed by woke people taking them in themselves? Could we not just get the right wingers to fire up the pedalos and stop the boats themselves instead?

 

[CCFCSteve]

So you’re basically saying that Germany would have had 6K more asylum seekers if it were not for the DR. You are also ignoring that Germany still prioritises DR as a route to returning asylum seekers because it’s success rate is high compared to other routes. 6K also won’t be the final figure for returns also as many appealed the decision so any lost appeal will be added to that number.

We went from a position of having a route to return to having no route to return. You can’t really be suggesting that the latter is no worse than the former. If we could use the DR to return 8% of all boat crossings now it would work in more than one way. Not least because not having an agreement is a very easy sell for the smuggling gangs. If the government entered an agreement today that guaranteed 8% of all arrivals would be sent back we’d all take it in a heartbeat. Except reform and the Tories of course who would no doubt vote against it as they have Labours other initiatives to tackle the issue.

It was 8% of incoming applications granted. Under DR there will always be outgoing applications to offset. As I say, Germany offset meant net 1.5k. France net 400. Hardly worth it. Would it make a difference as a small deterrent maybe. Like the governments current agreement with France if ramped up. All helps but it’s not the main reason. A bigger one would be processing claims/rejections and appeals far quicker

edit - biggest deterrent would obviously be France stopping boats on their side

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Think @shmmeee had a hissy fit and cried to the admins about it, spouts all his shite on here then cries when someone makes a comment back

I’m learning to be more measured so not doing it as much now

To be fair yes you have, I just thought you were getting bored of nobody biting

 

[SBT]

I’m learning to be more measured so not doing it as much now

That would be good if it happens, as you’ve been getting quite worked up on here lately. Your mother must be worried.