The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (21 Viewers)

[tisza]

So you think that Corbyn is the best the Labour party presently have? We are never going to win a GE if that is the case.

And I know that if I named anyone you would continue to have a go in his defence.

What i find extraordinary is that we have Labour activists trying to replace so-called moderate MPs with what they term "corbynistas".
When you try to adapt a party to its leader or an individual you're treading on thin ice - did we learn nothing from Thatcherism? Aren't we seeing atm how an extreme minority wing of a major party can try and hold the majority to ransom?

 

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[clint van damme]

Your first sentence is spot on and the general public still don’t understand how difficult it is to leave. The likes of Davis and Fox should never have been involved

How dare you! Liam Fox has trade deals secured with Norway and Iceland, combined population, just over 5.5 million.
And with the postponement of the leaving date I'm sure he'll get the other 38 he promised sorted before we exit.

 

[Grendel]

What i find extraordinary is that we have Labour activists trying to replace so-called moderate MPs with what they term "corbynistas".
When you try to adapt a party to its leader or an individual you're treading on thin ice - did we learn nothing from Thatcherism? Aren't we seeing atm how an extreme minority wing of a major party can try and hold the majority to ransom?

The real confusion anyway is that the activists have a polar opposite view to Corbyns real view on Europe. At least the hard left in the 80's were united in the loathing of the European Union

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Jezza's embarassing brother. :facepalm:


PMSL

Is that actually his brother?? PMSL

 

[shmmeee]

What i find extraordinary is that we have Labour activists trying to replace so-called moderate MPs with what they term "corbynistas".
When you try to adapt a party to its leader or an individual you're treading on thin ice - did we learn nothing from Thatcherism? Aren't we seeing atm how an extreme minority wing of a major party can try and hold the majority to ransom?

How can a minority keep winning internal elections?

 

[shmmeee]

Your 1st sentence is the killer - "at the moment ". Exactly what many Leavers didn't like and many across Europe don't like. This wave of feeling that the ultimate goal of Brussels is a federal superstate.

“Feelings” eh?

Glad we’re not driving the country off the cliff on something spurious.

 

[shmmeee]

so the doctor ends up doing nothing and the patient looks for 2nd/3rd etc opinions which is basically where your analogy takes us to now.

And when every Dr apart from this guy says no?

 

[Astute]

What i find extraordinary is that we have Labour activists trying to replace so-called moderate MPs with what they term "corbynistas".
When you try to adapt a party to its leader or an individual you're treading on thin ice - did we learn nothing from Thatcherism? Aren't we seeing atm how an extreme minority wing of a major party can try and hold the majority to ransom?

A part of the reason for it not going well for the Labour party is going in the opposite direction to the Tories in just about everything. The Tories are not doing everything wrong in the eyes of the voters. Just mainly the big things. But if Corbyn was wise or not happy to do anything with the sole aim of getting a chance to be PM he would do things differently. He could show he is a better selection than May. But sometimes he is more like a spoilt brat who hasn't got their own way.

 

[shmmeee]

If you put it that way and it is what you want the best way forward is a no deal. Because if we continue with close ties with the EU we won't be able to make trade deals with anyone else.

I want to remain. I want close trading ties with our closest neighbours. The whole thing is madness.

Second best is being in the customs union, because no amount of trade deals with fucking Timbuktu will make up for the size of the lost market.

Waaaaaaay down the list is a no deal that makes us butt buddies to the US and china.

 

[clint van damme]

A part of the reason for it not going well for the Labour party is going in the opposite direction to the Tories in just about everything. The Tories are not doing everything wrong in the eyes of the voters. Just mainly the big things. But if Corbyn was wise or not happy to do anything with the sole aim of getting a chance to be PM he would do things differently. He could show he is a better selection than May. But sometimes he is more like a spoilt brat who hasn't got their own way.

I guarantee you that a lot of the people who slate Corbyn haven't a clue what he policies are or why they disagree with them.

I

 

[shmmeee]

I guarantee you that a lot of the people who slate Corbyn haven't a clue what he policies are or why they disagree with them.

I

Like any left wing party, when the policies are shown to voters without a party name attached they are very very popular.

It’s no coincidence that UKIP, the only populist party we have, is split between the party elite like Farage who are free market zealots and the membership who are socially conservative and economically progressive.

Labours biggest issue with the public is being too socially liberal generally.

 

[Grendel]

Like any left wing party, when the policies are shown to voters without a party name attached they are very very popular.

It’s no coincidence that UKIP, the only populist party we have, is split between the party elite like Farage who are free market zealots and the membership who are socially conservative and economically progressive.

Labours biggest issue with the public is being too socially liberal generally.

Like pulling out of the EU which was a major policy of the real Labour Party in the 80's?

 

[tisza]

“Feelings” eh?

Glad we’re not driving the country off the cliff on something spurious.

want to check Dutch elections yesterday or opinion polls for this May's elections. Natural checks and balances.
Even Juncker has admitted Brussels has to put a check on its levels of interference in National issues.
Some remainers just as guilty of burying their heads in the sand as those that believe we can leave with a full deal or those that believe we should leave with no deal.

 

[tisza]

Like any left wing party, when the policies are shown to voters without a party name attached they are very very popular.

It’s no coincidence that UKIP, the only populist party we have, is split between the party elite like Farage who are free market zealots and the membership who are socially conservative and economically progressive.

Labours biggest issue with the public is being too socially liberal generally.

UKIP's level of support at last GE showed what people thought of their politics once they moved from basically a single issue party to a far right agenda 1.8% of votes cast.

I'd like to see some data about these polls that show how popular they are but aren't so much when voters are told they belong to the Labour Party.
Why is it people like the policies but not the party? Surely good policies is what swings votes. The current UK swing vote is around 40% and on a steady increase. It's certainly what helped put New Labour in.
what do you mean by "socially liberal" or is it the American "socially liberal, fiscally conservative"?

 

[Ian1779]

What i find extraordinary is that we have Labour activists trying to replace so-called moderate MPs with what they term "corbynistas".
When you try to adapt a party to its leader or an individual you're treading on thin ice - did we learn nothing from Thatcherism? Aren't we seeing atm how an extreme minority wing of a major party can try and hold the majority to ransom?

When you say moderate - do you mean Tories? Labour MP's abstaining on austerity, supporting cruel and unnecessary welfare sanctions and voting to support a wholly illegal war is not in keeping with the party ethos and it's intrinsic values. You only have to listen to the drivel spouted by the defecting MP's to TIG to know that Labour values are virtually non-existent in their worlds.

Whether you agree with that vision or not, at least Labour is finally moving away from trying to be like the Conservatives after being dragged there by Blair. Now whether that moves them closer to being electable is another argument.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So you think that Corbyn is the best the Labour party presently have? We are never going to win a GE if that is the case.

And I know that if I named anyone you would continue to have a go in his defence.

No I’m saying let’s have that debate when you give me the names. Until I’m blue in the face: I care about policy more than people.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Stop sounding ridiculous - you sound like that deranged Tory MP (sorry ex Tory MP) whose always using stupid medical analogies

Do you still think Jezza is involved in a child abuse cover up because you read it in the Telegraph?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

What i find extraordinary is that we have Labour activists trying to replace so-called moderate MPs with what they term "corbynistas".
When you try to adapt a party to its leader or an individual you're treading on thin ice - did we learn nothing from Thatcherism? Aren't we seeing atm how an extreme minority wing of a major party can try and hold the majority to ransom?

3 hard left Labour policies

Go

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Who drew the red lines? This is the only deal within those red lines. Change the red lines and get a deal that is acceptable to our sovereign parliament. That’s sovereignty in action. May has continually tried to deny the country that sovereignty, no one else.

The EU had red lines too. That's how 'negotiate' a deal works. If there is no overlap at all between them - then negotiation, as we appear to be seeing from this fiasco, is pointless

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

UKIP's level of support at last GE showed what people thought of their politics once they moved from basically a single issue party to a far right agenda 1.8% of votes cast.

I'd like to see some data about these polls that show how popular they are but aren't so much when voters are told they belong to the Labour Party.
Why is it people like the policies but not the party? Surely good policies is what swings votes. The current UK swing vote is around 40% and on a steady increase. It's certainly what helped put New Labour in.
what do you mean by "socially liberal" or is it the American "socially liberal, fiscally conservative"?

Just search for the polls yourself. How many times must the role of perception and spin be pointed out?

 

[tisza]

When you say moderate - do you mean Tories? Labour MP's abstaining on austerity, supporting cruel and unnecessary welfare sanctions and voting to support a wholly illegal war is not in keeping with the party ethos and it's intrinsic values. You only have to listen to the drivel spouted by the defecting MP's to TIG to know that Labour values are virtually non-existent in their worlds.

Whether you agree with that vision or not, at least Labour is finally moving away from trying to be like the Conservatives after being dragged there by Blair. Now whether that moves them closer to being electable is another argument.

This is what will hold labour back when moderates/blairites etc are referred to as Tories. When the left attacks its middle or the right attacks its middle it breeds mistrust in large numbers of swing voters.
Wait and see the damage to the Conservative party whichever part "wins" the brexit battle. Maybe ahead in polls atm but when they turn on each other almost certain to be unelectable.

 

[tisza]

Just search for the polls yourself. How many times must the role of perception and spin be pointed out?

Googled it can't find one. Give me a clue of an independent poll that has the data

 

[Astute]

I want to remain. I want close trading ties with our closest neighbours. The whole thing is madness.

Second best is being in the customs union, because no amount of trade deals with fucking Timbuktu will make up for the size of the lost market.

Waaaaaaay down the list is a no deal that makes us butt buddies to the US and china.

And I don't?

But the question I replied to was about making trade deals. And we won't be able to make trade deals with anyone else if we are still in any union with the EU. And you know that is what I replied to. Looks different when taken out of context though doesn't it.

 

[tisza]

3 hard left Labour policies

Go

So you're saying Corbyn is hard left?
I'm talking about the culture of any political party being adapted to its leader - thatcherite, blairite, corbynista

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Googled it can't find one. Give me a clue of an independent poll that has the data

Eurotrack: Corbyn’s policies popular in Europe and UK | YouGov

People overwhelmingly support Jeremy Corbyn's policies, poll finds

UK swing voters like Labour policies but not Jeremy Corbyn

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So you're saying Corbyn is hard left?
I'm talking about the culture of any political party being adapted to its leader - thatcherite, blairite, corbynista

No you are, unless I’ve misread. Thought you were talking about an abandoning of the centre when surely the centre is where preferred policies lie

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Let’s think about it as a choice between two procedures. The patient insists on one which will cause more harm, despite the doctor’s efforts. Does the doctor go ahead or refuse for the patient’s benefit?

Doctors never carry out procedures to cause harm. They offer a procedure it the potential benefit outweighs the potential risk to the patient. Their desired outcome is a better overall quality of life...so maybe not such a bad analogy. That could be what the leavers perceive they are going to get. Now I am sure many remainers will condescendingly argue their perception was based on a tissue of lies. But as it happens, they only offered a different tissue of lies themselves.

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[Astute]

I guarantee you that a lot of the people who slate Corbyn haven't a clue what he policies are or why they disagree with them.

I

And I guarantee that a lot of people don't care what he has done in the past or won't care in the future and will still vote for him.

You seem to be missing the point of the floating voters. What has he done to get their votes? Put that against what he has done to lose their votes. Look at the replies on this thread last night. And that was from Labour voters.

But of course as usual I suppose I am wrong.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

And when every Dr apart from this guy says no?

You go private

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[Astute]

No I’m saying let’s have that debate when you give me the names. Until I’m blue in the face: I care about policy more than people.

Of course you do.

So are you saying that Corbyn is the best Labour has?

I know that all you do is disagree with what I say unless you agree with it clearly. Then you don't mention it in the slightest. If I mention anyone at all you will just take the piss.

 

[tisza]

Eurotrack: Corbyn’s policies popular in Europe and UK | YouGov

People overwhelmingly support Jeremy Corbyn's policies, poll finds

UK swing voters like Labour policies but not Jeremy Corbyn

Exactly. Popular policies that are clearly marked as Corbyns.
Not rejected when people find out they are Corbyn's.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I guarantee you that a lot of the people who slate Corbyn haven't a clue what he policies are or why they disagree with them.

I

I guarantee that a lot of the people that support Corbyn haven't a clue what his policies (today) are or why they agree with them...other than to keep/get the Tories out

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[martcov]

Your 1st sentence is the killer - "at the moment ". Exactly what many Leavers didn't like and many across Europe don't like. This wave of feeling that the ultimate goal of Brussels is a federal superstate.

Feeling. Fear. Manipulation.

It is not happening at the moment and there are still vetoes. Maybe at some time people will want to become a federal state. Who knows? But I am not basing my decision on something that is not realistic at the moment.

 

[martcov]

Remind me what the U in USSR stands for?

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. As German Democratic Republic or People’s Republic of Korea. None of them is what it says in the name. None of them are in the West. Here we have e.g. Republic of Ireland, United States of America, Federal Republic of Germany. The names of countries in the West reflect what they are, exactly as European Union reflects what it is. A Union.

 

[clint van damme]

And I guarantee that a lot of people don't care what he has done in the past or won't care in the future and will still vote for him.

You seem to be missing the point of the floating voters. What has he done to get their votes? Put that against what he has done to lose their votes. Look at the replies on this thread last night. And that was from Labour voters.

But of course as usual I suppose I am wrong.

It's not about been right or wrong and it's not about Corbyn, for me it's about his policies.
There is no one waiting in the wings, with more charisma, with better leadership skills to promote those policies, so it's him or no-one.

Of course the thing most people miss is the negative press he gets is down to one particular policy specifically and it's why they'll constantly hound him - Leverson 2.