The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (63 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

I am just saying all options should be considered.

And not if it was worded correctly.

As Grendel has said, it could be

1. Do you accept the deal on the table?

2. Do you prefer the Norway or Canada model?

Or

3. No deal?

This may sound a bit controversial and it's unworkable now, but shouldn't a vote on the terms be open to leave voters only?
This is why this should have been done at the initial referendum.

 

---

[Sky Blue Pete]

I’m going to spend the rest of my life blaming all my friends who voted to leave for anything that goes wrong from my lawnmower breaking to climate change. And keep saying I told you so

 

[Otis]

This may sound a bit controversial and it's unworkable now, but shouldn't a vote on the terms be open to leave voters only?
This is why this should have been done at the initial referendum.

Wouldn't you then just get loads of remainers saying they voted leave?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

And if the Tories get back in? Then what?

Might we not be back at square one again?

Exactly my point why a referendum is needed to break the deadlock.

Nothing changes even if Labour formed a government. Yes, I’m a Labour supporter, but the current scenario doesn’t change with Corbyn as PM. It doesn’t change even if the Tories elected a new leader.

For those arguing that the GE of 2017 was further support of Brexit is nonsense. The Remain and Leave votes was intersectional. In short, large voters from Labour and Conservative voted Leave and Remain. Only UKIP and Lib Dem would’ve been split along Leave and Remain lines. So what increased Labours vote share was the collapse of UKIP, particularly in the north.

With a general election unlikely to change anything, the next logical step is another referendum. Believe me, I’d love to sit here and say a Labour government would change everything and we’re only in this situation because of Tory incompetence. It’s far more complicated.

 

[Otis]

Surely the Norway model isn't acceptable.

Just had a look on the Beeb news website and it says there that the Norway model entails Norway having to follow most EU laws and rules.

Surely no-one is going to buy that are they? Isn't that part of the very problem for lots on the leave campaign that they don't want to have Britain abiding by EU rules?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Surely the Norway model isn't acceptable.

Just had a look on the Beeb news website and it says there that the Norway model entails Norway having to follow most EU laws and rules.

Surely no-one is going to buy that are they? Isn't that part of the very problem for lots on the leave campaign that they don't want to have Britain abiding by EU rules?

If we had a mature conversation where you don’t just demand everything you want and give nothing away then it may be possible

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Surely the Norway model isn't acceptable.

Just had a look on the Beeb news website and it says there that the Norway model entails Norway having to follow most EU laws and rules.

Surely no-one is going to buy that are they? Isn't that part of the very problem for lots on the leave campaign that they don't want to have Britain abiding by EU rules?

Another lie of the Leave campaign.

In that model, we sign up to the very rules and regulations that infringe upon parliament’s sovereignty. But, only we don’t get any say whatsoever in the EU. If someone thinks it’s bad now as full members, how bad do you think it’ll be when we’re out of the EU? It really is beggars belief.

 

[Grappa]

Another lie of the Leave campaign.

In that model, we sign up to the very rules and regulations that infringe upon parliament’s sovereignty. But, only we don’t get any say whatsoever in the EU. If someone thinks it’s bad now as full members, how bad do you think it’ll be when we’re out of the EU? It really is beggars belief.

Lots of Norwegians (who voted against EU membership in 2 referendums) consider it to be a shit deal and EU membership by the back door. But now we have some leavers crowing for it. Crazy times.

 

[Grendel]

Exactly my point why a referendum is needed to break the deadlock.

Nothing changes even if Labour formed a government. Yes, I’m a Labour supporter, but the current scenario doesn’t change with Corbyn as PM. It doesn’t change even if the Tories elected a new leader.

For those arguing that the GE of 2017 was further support of Brexit is nonsense. The Remain and Leave votes was intersectional. In short, large voters from Labour and Conservative voted Leave and Remain. Only UKIP and Lib Dem would’ve been split along Leave and Remain lines. So what increased Labours vote share was the collapse of UKIP, particularly in the north.

With a general election unlikely to change anything, the next logical step is another referendum. Believe me, I’d love to sit here and say a Labour government would change everything and we’re only in this situation because of Tory incompetence. It’s far more complicated.

Frankly you believe in democracy Stalin style

 

[clint van damme]

Wouldn't you then just get loads of remainers saying they voted leave?

That's why it's unworkable. The whole thing should have been made clearer from the start.

 

[Grendel]

That's why it's unworkable. The whole thing should have been made clearer from the start.

It was always clear to me

 

[Sick Boy]

Surely the Norway model isn't acceptable.

Just had a look on the Beeb news website and it says there that the Norway model entails Norway having to follow most EU laws and rules.

Surely no-one is going to buy that are they? Isn't that part of the very problem for lots on the leave campaign that they don't want to have Britain abiding by EU rules?

Farage and the like we’re putting it forward as an option pre-referendum.

 

[clint van damme]

It was always clear to me

It was clear to everyone, only thing is there's about 5 definitions of what that clarity meant.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Frankly you believe in democracy Stalin style

What a laughably childish thing to say. It doesn't even make sense because a Stalinist democracy is an oxymoron.

Would I still be a 'Stalinist' if Leave won a second referendum? Probably not. Therefore, you making that juvenile comment suggests that you fear a second referendum. What is there to fear in letting plebiscite decide the outcome? At this rate, it would appear you have more totalitarian impulses than I by not supporting a second referendum that would potentially scrap Brexit. We've already established you'd be ok with a referendum that decided the kind of Brexit.

You wouldn't look out of place in a Monty Python sketch.

 

[Otis]

It was clear to everyone, only thing is there's about 5 definitions of what that clarity meant.

Like reading the Bible and the Quran then.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It was always clear to me

Lol.

 

[Otis]

Lol.

It 's always easier when you are looking down from the parapet.

 

[martcov]

You haven't accpted the result of the first vote so there's no reason to believe you would accept the result of a second vote. Or a third or a fourth and so on.

How do you know? Every remainder says they would and all arguments for a rerun would be over. Unless major fraud or foreign influence was involved and then it would be a legal decision to rerun.

 

[martcov]

Why hasn't he accepted it?
Debating whether it's a bad decision or not isn't the same as not accepting it.
By that logic if we get beat 5-0 tomorrow none of us should be posting our opinion on team selection of tactics.

We would for the next game though and someone would be asking for a taxi for Mark Robbins.

 

[Grendel]

Lol.

I have always believed the increasing centralisation of the EU was against true national democratic thinking.

It’s ironic that people laud devolution but worship the Eu which is a right wing capitalist club that in reality is only there to serve the rich and the few at the expense of the many.

The fact cabinet minutes were kept from the public to “protect” us from its true intent is all I need to know.

The political union established at Lisbon was done with no public consensus.

I don’t agree with Corbyn and his socialist policies but I agree his democratic right to embark on nationalisation of private enterprise is elected by the UK and that he should not need some polish pension fraudster or an increasing deluded man from Luxembourg to permit it,

So yeah lol I knew that 20 years ago and nothing has changed

 

[Ashdown]

What a laughably childish thing to say. It doesn't even make sense because a Stalinist democracy is an oxymoron.

Would I still be a 'Stalinist' if Leave won a second referendum? Probably not. Therefore, you making that juvenile comment suggests that you fear a second referendum. What is there to fear in letting plebiscite decide the outcome? At this rate, it would appear you have more totalitarian impulses than I by not supporting a second referendum that would potentially scrap Brexit. We've already established you'd be ok with a referendum that decided the kind of Brexit.

You wouldn't look out of place in a Monty Python sketch.

We had a referendum, there was a clear result ?! How do you suppose the disenfranchised and marginalised sections of society are going to react to democracy being thrown in the bin . Please don't keep referring to the farce that has gone before as our Remain prime minister appeased the EU hierarchy with what is essentially not Brexit. How if there was a vote that favoured remain would you try and bridge the gaps that exist and convince those who in good faith placed their cross and were then shit upon . You see I can't see those arrogant cunts in Brussels making any concessions. Bullies only understand one thing and that is someone to stand up to them.

 

[Ashdown]

Oh and just to clarify, despite MartGermans constant reference to the overall vote which was somewhat distorted by the London and Scottish voters many areas really were voting by 2/3 to 1/3 for Brexit. How do you go to them and say by the way fuck off , you didn't really count after all you ( mainly Northern) heathens. The North South divide will be even more accentuated.

 

[Ian1779]

Oh and just to clarify, despite MartGermans constant reference to the overall vote which was somewhat distorted by the London and Scottish voters many areas really were voting by 2/3 to 1/3 for Brexit. How do you go to them and say by the way fuck off , you didn't really count after all you ( mainly Northern) heathens. The North South divide will be even more accentuated.

And here you have summarised Labours problem.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I have always believed the increasing centralisation of the EU was against true national democratic thinking.

It’s ironic that people laud devolution but worship the Eu which is a right wing capitalist club that in reality is only there to serve the rich and the few at the expense of the many.

The fact cabinet minutes were kept from the public to “protect” us from its true intent is all I need to know.

The political union established at Lisbon was done with no public consensus.

I don’t agree with Corbyn and his socialist policies but I agree his democratic right to embark on nationalisation of private enterprise is elected by the UK and that he should not need some polish pension fraudster or an increasing deluded man from Luxembourg to permit it,

So yeah lol I knew that 20 years ago and nothing has changed

I think most people accept that the capitalist model with representbe democracy has largely been a force for good taking people out of literal poverty but it’s dependent on regulation and a sharing of the benefits across society. We are screwed as a race if we can’t cone together to solve our problems

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Unless someone like you cares an awful lot, nothing is going to get beggef. It’s not

 

[martcov]

We had a referendum, there was a clear result ?! How do you suppose the disenfranchised and marginalised sections of society are going to react to democracy being thrown in the bin . Please don't keep referring to the farce that has gone before as our Remain prime minister appeased the EU hierarchy with what is essentially not Brexit. How if there was a vote that favoured remain would you try and bridge the gaps that exist and convince those who in good faith placed their cross and were then shit upon . You see I can't see those arrogant cunts in Brussels making any concessions. Bullies only understand one thing and that is someone to stand up to them.

Excuse me. Who are here the arrogant cunts? We want to have our cake and eat it: BoJo. Turned up for negotiations with no paperwork: Davis. Came to Brussels to ask for help. Didn’t bring any proposals: May. Just off my head. Add to that comparisons to Nazis from a Conservative MEP, and the constant insults and mocking from the likes of Mr Brexit, Farage.

You expect us to get the better of 27 countries and when we cannot, you call them bullies. No mate. Brexit is a stupid idea. Unnecessary and impossible to complete without splitting the country and causing long term damage. The rest of Europe think we are mad and totally disorganised.

You voted for it. Own it and stop blaming others for the problems it causes.

I would tell the „left behind“ who the people were who have ignored and neglected them for years. Their sovereign parliament and successive governments. The Scots and Northern Irish know where the blame lies and have voted according ly. They don’t need a referendum, they saw through posh and/ or rich English people trying to bullshit them. The „left behind“ have yet to twig it, but I think they will at some time.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Excuse me. Who are here the arrogant cunts? We want to have our cake and eat it: BoJo. Turned up for negotiations with no paperwork: Davis. Came to Brussels to ask for help. Didn’t bring any proposals: May. Just off my head. Add to that comparisons to Nazis from a Conservative MEP, and the constant insults and mocking from the likes of Mr Brexit, Farage.

You expect us to get the better of 27 countries and when we cannot, you call them bullies. No mate. Brexit is a stupid idea. Unnecessary and impossible to complete without splitting the country and causing long term damage. The rest of Europe think we are mad and totally disorganised.

You voted for it. Own it and stop blaming others for the problems it causes.

I would tell the „left behind“ who the people were who have ignored and neglected them for years. Their sovereign parliament and successive governments. The Scots and Northern Irish know where the blame lies and have voted according ly. They don’t need a referendum, they saw through posh and/ or rich English people trying to bullshit them. The „left behind“ have yet to twig it, but I think they will at some time.

Me too. I think the blame that is deserved by those who have underpinned the Make money at any cost and screw anyone in the way will be found out and the country will point their fingers at the farage and Johnson’s and gove’s of this country and say how come youre not struggling? That’s when it’ll turn

 

[dutchman]

How do you know? Every remainder says they would and all arguments for a rerun would be over.

What they say now and how they will act if the vote goes against them are two very different things, as per previous referendums in Holland, France and Ireland.

 

[martcov]

What they say now and how they will act if the vote goes against them are two very different things, as per previous referendums in Holland, France and Ireland.

Were there ever 3 referenda on the same subject?

 

[Ashdown]

Excuse me. Who are here the arrogant cunts? We want to have our cake and eat it: BoJo. Turned up for negotiations with no paperwork: Davis. Came to Brussels to ask for help. Didn’t bring any proposals: May. Just off my head. Add to that comparisons to Nazis from a Conservative MEP, and the constant insults and mocking from the likes of Mr Brexit, Farage.

You expect us to get the better of 27 countries and when we cannot, you call them bullies. No mate. Brexit is a stupid idea. Unnecessary and impossible to complete without splitting the country and causing long term damage. The rest of Europe think we are mad and totally disorganised.

You voted for it. Own it and stop blaming others for the problems it causes.

I would tell the „left behind“ who the people were who have ignored and neglected them for years. Their sovereign parliament and successive governments. The Scots and Northern Irish know where the blame lies and have voted according ly. They don’t need a referendum, they saw through posh and/ or rich English people trying to bullshit them. The „left behind“ have yet to twig it, but I think they will at some time.

You constantly duck the point. The voters are ordinary people, all you refer back to is a handful of conductors at the top. The question i was posing is how do you appease millions, yes millions of working class folk who will feel mightily let down if the political class toffs, and the I'm doing alright crowd from London and the home counties tell them to stop being stupid , uneducated racists and tow the line once more . Mart you're such a fraud, you're worried about the effect on your business and possible consequences for your daughter being schooled in England . You're just as twisted and selfish as the Brexit leaders you like to slate day and night.

 

[dutchman]

Were there ever 3 referenda on the same subject?

No, either because you got the result you wanted after a second referendum or simply ignored the result of the first.

 

[Grappa]

You constantly duck the point. The voters are ordinary people, all you refer back to is a handful of conductors at the top. The question i was posing is how do you appease millions, yes millions of working class folk who will feel mightily let down if the political class toffs, and the I'm doing alright crowd from London and the home counties tell them to stop being stupid , uneducated racists and tow the line once more . Mart you're such a fraud, you're worried about the effect on your business and possible consequences for your daughter being schooled in England . You're just as twisted and selfish as the Brexit leaders you like to slate day and night.

And you're the mug who votes tory religiously. Austerity got us where we are today. Cut, cut, fucking cut. Crime increases, waiting lists get longer. Bankers fuck up, we pay.
Let's blame Europe.

 

[Astute]

Yeah and let’s make sure that the British tourists start paying road tax on their holidays abroad

We do. For instance I always buy mine in advance for Switzerland so I don't have to queue at the border. Then I spend hundreds just for using the motorways. Yet come here and nearly all the roads are free. We even pay for the motorways to be built and maintained.

 

[Astute]

Mate you understand about trade tariffs and barriers and tit for tat charges don’t you? No one wins it’s why a free trade area is such a good idea

I certainly do understand.

They want to keep what is ours and take away things that are good for us. They want to charge us money to go to the EU. They say it is to pay for the system of knowing who is there. So why shouldn't people from the EU coming here pay for a system so we know who is here?

It isn't tit for tat. It is fairness. Why should I pay for a system for the EU and then pay for a system here as well?

 

[Astute]

This may sound a bit controversial and it's unworkable now, but shouldn't a vote on the terms be open to leave voters only?
This is why this should have been done at the initial referendum.

It would be better if another vote wouldn't include those who would remain at whatever cost and also remove those who would leave at any cost. Then those of us that are actually trying to work out what would be best for our future would be left. But that would be even more impossible.