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chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
martcov said:
Out of interest, do you know how much SISU/Arvo take out in combined interest and management fees? Is it less than the extortionate ACL rent? Is CCFC/Otium ( the club ) on an equivalent to a rent to buy scheme ( in this case are we repaying the loans and Investors through management fees and one day becoming clear of debt and "free") with SISU/Otium? Or are we just paying interest and management fees for no future return - i.e. for ever?
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Over a million a year was mentioned as one point but isn't it adding to the debt and not actually being paid at the moment. Not sure how that relates to the rent though, if they took out £5m in management fees does it follow that the rent should be put up to £5m? You're trying to create a link between two things that have no link, you might as well ask how much a pie and pint is and suggest linking the rent to that.

Of course if we'd had a better deal from the start SISU might never had entered the picture and the interest and management fees owed to them wouldn't exist.
 
R

RPHunt

New Member
While they were about it, the council could have bought Messi & Ronaldo for us, but they obviously don't care enough about the club.
 
N

Noggin

New Member
chiefdave said:
Italia seems to think they couldn't do that due to the risk of non-payment but they don't seem to have a problem lending the money when ACL is owned by a traditionally London based rugby club losing millions a year, how is lending to us a risk but not to them?
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havn't read the rest of the thread so forgive me If I'm misunderstanding the discussion, lending to ACL is a small risk because they have an expensive asset to secure the loan against. If you don't get paid you get the asset, ACL also have no history of not paying what they owe. Lending to us would be a complete mugs game that no one in their right mind would do at this point in time. We have nothing to secure the debt against and no realistic chance of paying back what is already owed to a creditor that has first dibs (and has already used insolvency law to their advantage) and we have a history of not paying our debts. I wouldn't even lend to ccfc at 100% interest, let alone whatever the small percentage is that the council loan is.
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
Noggin said:
havn't read the rest of the thread so forgive me If I'm misunderstanding the discussion, lending to ACL is a small risk because they have an expensive asset to secure the loan against. If you don't get paid you get the asset, ACL also have no history of not paying what they owe. Lending to us would be a complete mugs game that no one in their right mind would do at this point in time. We have nothing to secure the debt against and no realistic chance of paying back what is already owed to a creditor that has first dibs (and has already used insolvency law to their advantage) and we have a history of not paying our debts. I wouldn't even lend to ccfc at 100% interest, let alone whatever the small percentage is that the council loan is.
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I think he meant historically when we first moved.
 
J

Jack Griffin

Guest
chiefdave said:
Did indeed exist, of course it would have needed financing so maybe instead of taking on the Ricoh project the council could have given the club a low interest loan to buy back HR. I'm betting they never made an offer to do anything like that.
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Ermmmm.. that definitely would be illegal state aid.
 
G

Godiva

Well-Known Member
martcov said:
Out of interest, do you know how much SISU/Arvo take out in combined interest and management fees? Is it less than the extortionate ACL rent? Is CCFC/Otium ( the club ) on an equivalent to a rent to buy scheme ( in this case are we repaying the loans and Investors through management fees and one day becoming clear of debt and "free") with SISU/Otium? Or are we just paying interest and management fees for no future return - i.e. for ever?
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chiefdave said:
Over a million a year was mentioned as one point but isn't it adding to the debt and not actually being paid at the moment. Not sure how that relates to the rent though, if they took out £5m in management fees does it follow that the rent should be put up to £5m? You're trying to create a link between two things that have no link, you might as well ask how much a pie and pint is and suggest linking the rent to that.

Of course if we'd had a better deal from the start SISU might never had entered the picture and the interest and management fees owed to them wouldn't exist.
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Management fees is a bit of a myth. It dates back to SBS&L, ccfc holdings and limited sharing one bank account. All costs were paid by that account and once a year the cost was distributed to the other companies as 'management fees'. No money related to 'management fees' has ever left the group to fill sisu's coffers.

Interests on the other hand has either been paid out or added to the debt. The actual interest rate is hard to calculate as other cost has previously demanded interests. The mortgage on Ryton and probably also the mortgaging of season tickets.
 
G

Godiva

Well-Known Member
Noggin said:
havn't read the rest of the thread so forgive me If I'm misunderstanding the discussion, lending to ACL is a small risk because they have an expensive asset to secure the loan against. If you don't get paid you get the asset, ACL also have no history of not paying what they owe. Lending to us would be a complete mugs game that no one in their right mind would do at this point in time. We have nothing to secure the debt against and no realistic chance of paying back what is already owed to a creditor that has first dibs (and has already used insolvency law to their advantage) and we have a history of not paying our debts. I wouldn't even lend to ccfc at 100% interest, let alone whatever the small percentage is that the council loan is.
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Erm - wasn't that asset the lease?
So if ACL went bankrupt with no money to distribute to creditors all that would revert was the lease. Kind of risky if there was no other sports at the Ricoh.
 
N

Noggin

New Member
Nick said:
I think he meant historically when we first moved.
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he asked how is lending to a wasps owed acl not a risk but loaning to us is? but even if he meant years ago much of what I said still applies, if you have an asset to secure the loan against it's not much of a risk, if you don't then it is.

edit - also the council loan only came about recently it was the bank who loaned the money.
 
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Nick

Nick

Administrator
Noggin said:
he asked how is lending to a wasps owed acl not a risk but loaning to us is? but even if he meant years ago much of what I said still applies, if you have an asset to secure the loan against it's not much of a risk, if you don't then it is.
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Surely the asset would have been the same as the asset Wasps have?
 
N

Noggin

New Member
Godiva said:
Erm - wasn't that asset the lease?
So if ACL went bankrupt with no money to distribute to creditors all that would revert was the lease. Kind of risky if there was no other sports at the Ricoh.
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some risk but massively less than lending to the football club.
 
G

Godiva

Well-Known Member
Noggin said:
some risk but massively less than lending to the football club.
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And now they have lend to a rugby club that has similar financial history to the football club ....
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Noggin said:
lending to ACL is a small risk because they have an expensive asset to secure the loan against. If you don't get paid you get the asset, ACL also have no history of not paying what they owe.
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I think you've misunderstood, I mean if at day 1 when the Ricoh was built CCFC owned 100% of ACL, CCC could loan ACL the £21m secured against the lease. As we know CCC can access finance on better terms than are commercial available so rather than ACL take a loan from Yorkshire Bank why not borrow from CCC at a lower interest rate on a longer term. If they expected us to be able to pay £1.2m a year in rent surely they wouldn't have a problem with instead making a loan where annual repayments would be less than half that?

Jack Griffin said:
Ermmmm.. that definitely would be illegal state aid.
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So you agree with SISU, the loan to ACL is illegal state aid? I can't see a difference between a loan made to ACL 100% owned by CCFC or a loan made to ACL 100% owned by Wasps.

Godiva said:
Erm - wasn't that asset the lease?
So if ACL went bankrupt with no money to distribute to creditors all that would revert was the lease. Kind of risky if there was no other sports at the Ricoh.
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Exactly, they were happy to lend to ACL, first owned by CCC / Higgs and now by Wasps, with just the lease as security, why couldn't the same apply to lending to ACL owned by CCFC?

Noggin said:
he asked how is lending to a wasps owed acl not a risk but loaning to us is? but even if he meant years ago much of what I said still applies, if you have an asset to secure the loan against it's not much of a risk, if you don't then it is.

Also the council loan only came about recently it was the bank who loaned the money.
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But if CCFC owned 100% of ACL the loan would still be to ACL secured against the lease. Indeed the initial loan was from Yorkshire Bank but as we now know CCC can access finance on preferential terms, could they not have done that, for the clubs benefit, in the past?

Noggin said:
some risk but massively less than lending to the football club.
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How so? Wasps are losing millions a year, they have no idea if they will be able to sustain a level of attendance that makes ownership of ACL viable and they can't for certain say we'll be playing there for the rest of the 200 plus year lease. Surely thats more of a risk?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
Over a million a year was mentioned as one point but isn't it adding to the debt and not actually being paid at the moment. Not sure how that relates to the rent though, if they took out £5m in management fees does it follow that the rent should be put up to £5m? You're trying to create a link between two things that have no link, you might as well ask how much a pie and pint is and suggest linking the rent to that.

Of course if we'd had a better deal from the start SISU might never had entered the picture and the interest and management fees owed to them wouldn't exist.
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Was just trying to work out if we were better off or not since then. Generaly, CCC weren't forced to help CCFC and if I were them I would have also expected a return for the "bail out". Having said that, the situation got from bad to worse instead of better and the whole concept should have been rethought out, especially after the Ricoh was completed. The rent made it easy for ACL just to plod on without having to do too much. Since then they have had to reduce costs and look to bringing business in. If the rent had been reduced earlier and/ or CCFC had been allowed to buy in, say on tick, the city could have worked together with the club and maybe even, Wasps would be CCFCs tenant now.
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
martcov said:
Was just trying to work out if we were better off or not since then. Generaly, CCC weren't forced to help CCFC and if I were them I would have also expected a return for the "bail out". Having said that, the situation got from bad to worse instead of better and the whole concept should have been rethought out, especially after the Ricoh was completed. The rent made it easy for ACL just to plod on without having to do too much. Since then they have had to reduce costs and look to bringing business in. If the rent had been reduced earlier and/ or CCFC had been allowed to buy in, say on tick, the city could have worked together with the club and maybe even, Wasps would be CCFCs tenant now.
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Good win today? ;)
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Nick said:
Good win today? ;)
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Yes, it was and a real surprise. Pressley apparently got the tactics right. I only had minute glimpses at BBC because it is my wife's ( common law ) birthday today and the whole family is here. Sorry Nick, I'll make up for it by showing the Swindon game in my pub. Is that ok?
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
martcov said:
Yes, it was and a real surprise. Pressley apparently got the tactics right. I only had minute glimpses at BBC because it is my wife's ( common law ) birthday today and the whole family is here. Sorry Nick, I'll make up for it by showing the Swindon game in my pub. Is that ok?
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It's ok, I can understand that trying to figure out the politics may be more important nowadays to our games judging by the past few weeks. ;)
 
NorthernWisdom

NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
martcov said:
Generaly, CCC weren't forced to help CCFC and if I were them I would have also expected a return for the "bail out".
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It's where the whole deal was flawed from the outset though.

And, tbh, not even from a local perspective, but local councils being given national guidelines and where *everything* has to pay its way financially.

It's also where pushing ahead with a new stadium suited all agendas however - CCC still got the battering ram for local land regeneration, CCFC got the short term influx of cash from selling assets, to ensure administration or selling the club for peanuts didn't have to happen just then.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Nick said:
It's ok, I can understand that trying to figure out the politics may be more important nowadays to our games judging by the past few weeks. ;)
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One reason being that I can see the politics, but not the games as they are rarely on sky. Not my wish. At the moment though, the mother in law is more important than games or politics and so I better nip into the flat again. ;-)
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
Nick said:
It's ok, I can understand that trying to figure out the politics may be more important nowadays to our games judging by the past few weeks. ;)
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Maybe you should cajole before the game .

the plant was on here an hour before the game .

I was going to give him nudge on your behalf ,really should have to be fair .

what his site needs Is prefects and a Bullingdon club .:):facepalm::p
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
martcov said:
One reason being that I can see the politics, but not the games as they are rarely on sky. Not my wish. At the moment though, the mother in law is more important than games or politics and so I better nip into the flat again. ;-)
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I'll have to have a look for a live stream online of the SISU / CCC channel as I don't think we get it over here :(
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
wingy said:
Maybe you should cajole before the game .

the plant was on here an hour before the game .

I was going to give him nudge on your behalf ,really should have to be fair .

what his site needs Is prefects and a Bullingdon club .:):facepalm::p
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Which plant?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Nick said:
I'll have to have a look for a live stream online of the SISU / CCC channel as I don't think we get it over here :(
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The nearest being Simon or David Conn or even TF ( now and again JS ) or court cases ( regular events ). Hopefully Portland will increase the viewing pleasure ( sarcasm ).
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
Or here ;)

I just assumed you were watching the politics stuff live on Sky as you can't discuss football unless that happens?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
Back now.... Looking forward to the TV game. Really lucky with the timing as I will be on the road a lot until April. There are not many pubs in Germany that show Coventry. My pub is probably the only one - without a special request - although when I am on the road, I sometimes find an Irish Pub that puts it on for me ( e.g. The famous Preston game in the paint pot trophy ).
 
T

The Gentleman

Well-Known Member
Nick said:
Or here ;)

I just assumed you were watching the politics stuff live on Sky as you can't discuss football unless that happens?
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I was wondering Nick on how many times you have used that winky thing on the end of your posts when you were serious but put that in there for some sort of caveat?

Oh sorry, nearly forgot ;)
 
Nick

Nick

Administrator
The Gentleman said:
I was wondering Nick on how many times you have used that winky thing on the end of your posts when you were serious but put that in there for some sort of caveat?

Oh sorry, nearly forgot ;)
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I tend to keep my winky thing off posts, don't want to get a splinter!
 
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