I am coming around to the view that Sisu could be the clubs' best owners for some considerable time. They understand that a business has to live within its means and are doing all they can to bring this about at CCFC. We have recently seen one major club on the brink of liquidation due to the irresponsible way in which it has been run over the last few years and there will no doubt be others in the near future. I suspect that all clubs will shortly have to face this fact and perhaps therefore we will have a head start upon them.
Sisu (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Tonylinc
- Start date
SkyBlueArmy
New Member
go back to Scunthorpe
:blue:
:blue:
I'm still in Scunthorpe.
The Reverend Skyblue
Well-Known Member
Tony, have you been drinking !!
The Rev
The Rev
OK, it was a tongue in cheek post BUT I want someone to rebuff it with a reasoned arguement.
Delboycov
Active Member
Sorry didn't see that Tony....apologies ;-)
thorn in my side
New Member
With the financial fair play regulations, we need for a dose of financial reality in football generally
Grendel
Well-Known Member
For lack of investment I assume you are confusing this term with "charitable donation"?
I just checked the date and it's NOT April 1st.... or is it?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
True but they were purchased by a now deceased billionaire. Our "saviors" seem to be Garry hoffman (ex board member with sisu and no money to invest), mr Coventry and the sexist Neanderthal at talk sport. I would make a quip about which is the good, bad and ugly but is any of it good really?
ccfcdan
New Member
I know this has been covered over and over again but its not Hoffman taking over. He's just getting the money men to the table isnt he? To be honest its taken so long im starting to doubt that there is any backers at all. Were stuck with Sisu for the long term
I think that you may well be correct Dan. Looking at it from an investors piont of view; what the heck would you gain from ownership of the football club without a share in the stadium? Whether that would bring immediate rewards however is another matter.I know this has been covered over and over again but its not Hoffman taking over. He's just getting the money men to the table isnt he? To be honest its taken so long im starting to doubt that there is any backers at all. Were stuck with Sisu for the long term
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
Final champiomship positions 2008/09, Southampton was relegated despite not having SISU as owners.
22 Norwich 46 9 5 9 35 28 3 5 15 22 42 -13 46 (R)
23 Southampton 46 4 10 9 23 29 6 5 12 23 40 -23 45 (R)
24 Charlton 46 6 8 9 33 38 2 7 14 19 36 -22 39 (R)
ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
Let's face facts - hoffmans investors don't give two hoot abt the football club, they see an opportunity to invest in a retail park with land ripe for development, a multi function stadium and exhibition centre and hotel opportunities. The basket case of a football club is just an overcomplicated and unwelcome sideshow in a much bigger overall deal. The problem w this deal is simply all the different strands and agencies that have to.be tied up. I am sure as soon as 5 are done another unravels and its a v frustrating exercise for hoffman and possibly futile. Whether these new owners would do any better is debatable but from a PR and communications point of view they cannot do much worse - investment wise I don't expect them to spend anymore than SISU have done.
ccfcdan
New Member
Correct. However we will most probably be relegated with Sisu, And with Sisu we will most likely not come straight back up and also most probably not then challenge for the Championship title. I hope im wrong but i can see Sisu letting us plummet until we are at break even point. And that will be with a team largely made up of our youth team and at the lower reaches of league 1.
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
the only way is down
we just cant win with sisu
if sisu came out and said "times are tough, we have to cut, redcuce the wage bill, sell where possible, but when we are in a stable position, the only way will be up, i would take that, but i just cant see it happening
i wouldnt have a problem with
--------------Platt------Cody------------
mcsheff---Deegan--Thomas--Baker
Hussey--Cameron--Wood-----Clarke
--------------Murphy------------------
next year, without any investment in the team, but you just know that anyone who does well in the 1st few months will be gone in Jan !
we just cant win with sisu
if sisu came out and said "times are tough, we have to cut, redcuce the wage bill, sell where possible, but when we are in a stable position, the only way will be up, i would take that, but i just cant see it happening
i wouldnt have a problem with
--------------Platt------Cody------------
mcsheff---Deegan--Thomas--Baker
Hussey--Cameron--Wood-----Clarke
--------------Murphy------------------
next year, without any investment in the team, but you just know that anyone who does well in the 1st few months will be gone in Jan !
Lord_Nampil
Well-Known Member
Post to me has caused a massive can of worms to open,
personally i think SISU (rightly or wrongly) are doing the only thing they can do with a business which is losing money!
The problem i have is why has it taken them 4 years for them to do this?? Think that really you have to look at Ranson's approach and realise that he made alot of mistakes and had a fraud business plan! Something which now is hurting the club very deeply. We should have got on the straight and narrow off the field before purchasing players and making rash decisions on the management front!
I think only time will tell if this post is a correct one or not, though the previous 2 owners haven't helped the situation either, infact you could say we have been miss managed for 25 years and what happened when we were managed correctly......
personally i think SISU (rightly or wrongly) are doing the only thing they can do with a business which is losing money!
The problem i have is why has it taken them 4 years for them to do this?? Think that really you have to look at Ranson's approach and realise that he made alot of mistakes and had a fraud business plan! Something which now is hurting the club very deeply. We should have got on the straight and narrow off the field before purchasing players and making rash decisions on the management front!
I think only time will tell if this post is a correct one or not, though the previous 2 owners haven't helped the situation either, infact you could say we have been miss managed for 25 years and what happened when we were managed correctly......
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
Yes their initial tactic of telling lie after lie was unnaceptable, but Fisher isn't Onye or Delieu, they were the ones who were talking total bollards. I think Fisher is trying within limits to be far more open.
Big Mo
New Member
We were fucked well before sisu and whilst they haven't solved our problems they weren't the cause.
Aside from an avid fan who is willing to come in and monk away multi millions we've got either sisu or another company who would follow the same strategy.
Like everyone else I'd love investment on the playing side but be careful what you wish for - I'd much prefer league one or even two than end up like Pompey or rangers.
Aside from an avid fan who is willing to come in and monk away multi millions we've got either sisu or another company who would follow the same strategy.
Like everyone else I'd love investment on the playing side but be careful what you wish for - I'd much prefer league one or even two than end up like Pompey or rangers.
Paxman II
Well-Known Member
SISU's intentions I'm not so sure about but Ranson was hopeless. Once that was moved aside and addressed they simply stumbled around looking for answers. When they found there wasn't one they started to get on with the job of putting the house in order and that is the first time they did something right. We can argue they could do more but I doubt they really care for the football club other than keeping their investment afloat and obtaining co-investors or even a sale for the right deal.
What ever Hoffman may or may not be doing I will not as Asbyjan confidently exudes by second guessing the whole thing.
It's been too long though without hearing anything concrete especially as the club are promoting season ticket sales? That would suggest Hoffman is still pissing in the wind if anything - but I'm just second guessing there myself.
What SISU have done is get an academy and starlets coming through, building the future and giving us a structure we will grow from. I'm no fan of their's and we would all like a sugar daddy but stability is something to be grateful for. If we end up in league 1 we will compete very well I feel as all the markers will be in our favour. If we stay up they will have to invest some at least and all these youngsters are only going to get better.
It's the bigger medium to long term picture that counts guys.
What ever Hoffman may or may not be doing I will not as Asbyjan confidently exudes by second guessing the whole thing.
It's been too long though without hearing anything concrete especially as the club are promoting season ticket sales? That would suggest Hoffman is still pissing in the wind if anything - but I'm just second guessing there myself.
What SISU have done is get an academy and starlets coming through, building the future and giving us a structure we will grow from. I'm no fan of their's and we would all like a sugar daddy but stability is something to be grateful for. If we end up in league 1 we will compete very well I feel as all the markers will be in our favour. If we stay up they will have to invest some at least and all these youngsters are only going to get better.
It's the bigger medium to long term picture that counts guys.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
City have always sold the players they developed eventually. As long as the club gets a net benefit from their development then what is the problem.
Personally I'd rather have an income from player trading than an ever increasing overdraft. That is a sure route to administration & liquidation. Anyway the new finance rules will stop clubs doing much otherwise, a lot of them are going to have to amend their ways radically.
gears87
Active Member
so you would give all your developed kids away for small fees with no thought on the future off the team/club...like city have done..???
dont you ever think that its ok to sell players who you develope as long as you re-invest some of the money ???
not slating just interested as to where we belong in the scheme of things
dont you ever think that its ok to sell players who you develope as long as you re-invest some of the money ???
not slating just interested as to where we belong in the scheme of things
Wrenstreetcarpark
New Member
Surely the whole point of an Academy is to produce good players. Any club will have more players going through the Academy than they could ever use, you get more for them if they have played first team football, so the consequence is that the club will inevitably be selling first team players that it has developed. This by itself doesn't make you a selling club any more than any other club with an Academy is a selling club. Its what they do with the money that matters. If you are Richardson you stuff it in your back pocket...
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
SISU are doing the only thing they can do as LN said above. There is no other strategy when you cant/wont fund further internal monies, cant find other outside investors, no buyers matching SISU expectations and no assets to hang our hat on. The club has thrown away money for decades, leaving us with substantial losses even after discounting the debt by £35m once already. It simply cannot go on and someone had to get a grip of it and turn this club around or have no club.
The issues I have are :
It should have been the strategy from the start. SISU would go into other businesses and immediately be cutting back costs reducing overheads and losses. From a purely financial perspective a football club is no different from any other business.... it has sales, it has a product, it has costs the biggest of which is wages (like many other businesses), it has overheads, in this case it rents the property but that isnt so different to 1000's of other businesses, it needs to show a profit and it needs to minimise debt, like many businesses its owners have advanced money to support it. So why oh why let someone who didnt recognise that run the club by gambling on getting in a players on the less than 20% chance of promotion or real success. From a purely financial view what we did when they took over made no sense
There was a real opportunity to get everyone on side when they took over. SISU could have at that point done pretty much as they needed to with the finances and whilst we would not have liked it we would have accepted it to a great degree. That acceptance was never going to happen 2 years later after bringing in a couple of players, maintaining a squad we couldnt afford, expectation had changed. They timed it wrongly and communicated it even worse.
We as fans look at other clubs, see them spend, expect our owners to do the same. They have chosen a different path and in many ways i see what they are doing and think well it is what has to be done. The issue I have is the wrong timing and the total lack of communication. Those other clubs are going to feel a lot of pain in months that come and few will have the solace of any real success. I truly believe we will see some big clubs fold in the top 4 leagues
This club has been a total financial mess for decades - we simply cannot continue in that way. Someone had to get to grips with it or the club was gone for ever. It was always going to hurt, it was always going to mean disappointing the fans! That is the stark realism of our situation. We are still far from being safe in that respect. It is simply no good saying we need to spend this or that - we cannot afford it ! Spend a million on a player, ok, then pay him £10k pw for 3 years ..... that is £2.6m paid out with no guarantee of income improving ..... thats more losses £2.6m and more debt £2.6m ........ and thats just on one player! - to put in context think Eastwood and the success he brought us. In the real world someone please explain how we fund that, please explain the imperative why an owner should fund that. Turn it around, we expect owners to pay more into the club but then see many complain that they themselves shouldnt pay 53p more pw on their season ticket
We dont know the strategy......... it hasnt been explained. Are we building the academy ? if so to what purpose? Do we have the funds to do it? Are we letting the first team find its own level in the leagues to build from there? What are we doing with the signings/contracts we made this season? How are we retaining the young players? Is the purchase of any interest in stadium or ACL viable any time soon? .......... and many many more questions ............. communication! communication! communication! ...............
The FFP rules will take affect on all clubs ........ eventually. I think we are ahead of the game in that respect but it hasnt been done to match the rules. It has been done because that was the only course of action left to us....... you didnt need to be a business genius to know that. Did SISU choose that course..... partly but in the end they ran out of choices..... there was no alternative. Do I think that was good proactive management by Board or SISU ....... no ...... it was reactive and late
SISU have made some big mistakes, they have got things wrong in many ways.......... but I think those that say SISU got it all wrong are mistaken. As with any other business the owners make good and bad decisions - SISU or the Board are no different. I think folk mistake financial fire fighting for financial mismanagement ....... sometimes you have to do what you have to do just so the business survives ....... so far it has survived. What irks the fans is that it hasnt met their expectations - more involved than just SISU in arriving at that disappointment I feel.
Right now for me the jury is out on SISU to a degree until I know what happens by the start of next season. I do not support them, I think in many ways they have brought the fans dislike/distrust on themselves but i do understand some of the things being done with the finances. Would I like new owners ...... yes because they have broken the link to the fans that wont be repaired...... but do i want new owners to ruin the finances, increase debt and losses by going back to the ways that got us here - absolutely not
The issues I have are :
It should have been the strategy from the start. SISU would go into other businesses and immediately be cutting back costs reducing overheads and losses. From a purely financial perspective a football club is no different from any other business.... it has sales, it has a product, it has costs the biggest of which is wages (like many other businesses), it has overheads, in this case it rents the property but that isnt so different to 1000's of other businesses, it needs to show a profit and it needs to minimise debt, like many businesses its owners have advanced money to support it. So why oh why let someone who didnt recognise that run the club by gambling on getting in a players on the less than 20% chance of promotion or real success. From a purely financial view what we did when they took over made no sense
There was a real opportunity to get everyone on side when they took over. SISU could have at that point done pretty much as they needed to with the finances and whilst we would not have liked it we would have accepted it to a great degree. That acceptance was never going to happen 2 years later after bringing in a couple of players, maintaining a squad we couldnt afford, expectation had changed. They timed it wrongly and communicated it even worse.
We as fans look at other clubs, see them spend, expect our owners to do the same. They have chosen a different path and in many ways i see what they are doing and think well it is what has to be done. The issue I have is the wrong timing and the total lack of communication. Those other clubs are going to feel a lot of pain in months that come and few will have the solace of any real success. I truly believe we will see some big clubs fold in the top 4 leagues
This club has been a total financial mess for decades - we simply cannot continue in that way. Someone had to get to grips with it or the club was gone for ever. It was always going to hurt, it was always going to mean disappointing the fans! That is the stark realism of our situation. We are still far from being safe in that respect. It is simply no good saying we need to spend this or that - we cannot afford it ! Spend a million on a player, ok, then pay him £10k pw for 3 years ..... that is £2.6m paid out with no guarantee of income improving ..... thats more losses £2.6m and more debt £2.6m ........ and thats just on one player! - to put in context think Eastwood and the success he brought us. In the real world someone please explain how we fund that, please explain the imperative why an owner should fund that. Turn it around, we expect owners to pay more into the club but then see many complain that they themselves shouldnt pay 53p more pw on their season ticket
We dont know the strategy......... it hasnt been explained. Are we building the academy ? if so to what purpose? Do we have the funds to do it? Are we letting the first team find its own level in the leagues to build from there? What are we doing with the signings/contracts we made this season? How are we retaining the young players? Is the purchase of any interest in stadium or ACL viable any time soon? .......... and many many more questions ............. communication! communication! communication! ...............
The FFP rules will take affect on all clubs ........ eventually. I think we are ahead of the game in that respect but it hasnt been done to match the rules. It has been done because that was the only course of action left to us....... you didnt need to be a business genius to know that. Did SISU choose that course..... partly but in the end they ran out of choices..... there was no alternative. Do I think that was good proactive management by Board or SISU ....... no ...... it was reactive and late
SISU have made some big mistakes, they have got things wrong in many ways.......... but I think those that say SISU got it all wrong are mistaken. As with any other business the owners make good and bad decisions - SISU or the Board are no different. I think folk mistake financial fire fighting for financial mismanagement ....... sometimes you have to do what you have to do just so the business survives ....... so far it has survived. What irks the fans is that it hasnt met their expectations - more involved than just SISU in arriving at that disappointment I feel.
Right now for me the jury is out on SISU to a degree until I know what happens by the start of next season. I do not support them, I think in many ways they have brought the fans dislike/distrust on themselves but i do understand some of the things being done with the finances. Would I like new owners ...... yes because they have broken the link to the fans that wont be repaired...... but do i want new owners to ruin the finances, increase debt and losses by going back to the ways that got us here - absolutely not
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Previously I've likened CCFC to the UK economy, and SISU to the Tories-and not in a bad way. Their approach to solving the deficit problem was to make very large cuts, shed jobs, and to do it quickly; SISU's approach over the last 2 or 3 seasons has been more or less the same. We've seen the playing budget reduced to a miniscule amount, vast player departures, and scrapings in replacements. Why? To make CCFC a leaner, more sustainable business that will ensure SISU some return on their cash.
The problem with the approach Dave and SISU have taken is that the cuts have gone so far as to be more damaging than good-the squad has been perenially struggling all season to get its head above water, and risks probable relegation. Nobody disagrees with the desire to run sustainably, as Portsmouth's farcical situation supports, but the aggressive implementation of cutbacks and distinct lack of explanation is what has blotted their copybook. I could stretch the analogy further with comparisons to zealous overspending under BR/Labour, but I'll save you all that
The problem with the approach Dave and SISU have taken is that the cuts have gone so far as to be more damaging than good-the squad has been perenially struggling all season to get its head above water, and risks probable relegation. Nobody disagrees with the desire to run sustainably, as Portsmouth's farcical situation supports, but the aggressive implementation of cutbacks and distinct lack of explanation is what has blotted their copybook. I could stretch the analogy further with comparisons to zealous overspending under BR/Labour, but I'll save you all that
Wrenstreetcarpark
New Member
More like Greece than UK.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
So I got to thinking. Had SISU come in and done a financial hatchet job from the start where would we be. This is very rough and ready and too simplistic but the figures are not the point it is the principle of acting too late that is
Group Losses we think we know
2008 (part year) £4m
2009 £8m
2010 £6m
2011 £6m estimate (ignores prozone sale say £5m profit)
2012 £6m estimate
total £30m less prozone disposal £5m = £25m
Had they in August 2008 had a clear out or not bought certain players what would be the effect financially ?. (figures in brackets = wages saved per year they were here) - btw all guesswork feel free to disagree with the estmated figures
Best sell for £750k (£300k 2009 £300k 2010)
Eastwood - not buy £1.2m (£500k 2009 £500k 2010 £500k 2011 £500k 2012)
Morrison - free (£500k 2009 £500k 2010)
Ward - £750k (£400k 2009 £400k 2010)
Mifsud - £1m (£300k 2009 )
Doyle - £500k (£400k)
thats losses decreased by £9.3m
Save on manager & his staff in much same way as they have with AT say £500k x 3 yrs
Following year or so
cash in on Westwood £2m (would need a new keeper so no wages saved)
No Mcindoe save £800k wages
other reductions in non playing staff etc say £1m per year - say £4m in total (let alone other savings I am sure they have identified and made over the years)
Purely illustrative but you get the picture. Invest in our youth from day 1, use the loan system while finances stabilised etc. Yes would have upset some fans but they could have communicated it properly and got understanding if not support for their actions.
So we had £25m losses less the potential savings/profits they could have had ....... all that above comes to approx £18m saved.......... leaving losses in 4 years of £7m total
The importance of that is that SISU would only have had to finance £7m in losses - which might leave room & willingness to invest now. It means the groups debts would be £18m less - SISU would require £18m less to be paid out to them in any deal..... investors would be more interested, the balance sheet would look far better etc. It would mean it is more likely debts paid on time, budgets set on time, accounts filed on time - and therefore no transfer embargo! They could have even sold us by now ! The fly in the ointment is whether income could have been maintained and whether we would have been relegated before now.
Yes it is still losses but much more manageable - develop and cash in on a player and you knock big dents into those losses that are left. Start being successful, increasing crowds and breakeven isnt far away is it.
But you get the idea as to why I think SISU got it so wrong at the start financially. But I suppose hind sight is a wonderful thing. I think they neither backed the sorting club finances nor the team to begin with .... kind of got caught neither one nor tuther.... an indecision i am sure they regret and if could do again would not do the same. I think they needed to focus on the finances before anything else, it wouldnt have been an easy period but if you dont get the finances right you run a very real risk of there being no team in the end. Spend without thinking on the team and the risk of a financial crash is great
Group Losses we think we know
2008 (part year) £4m
2009 £8m
2010 £6m
2011 £6m estimate (ignores prozone sale say £5m profit)
2012 £6m estimate
total £30m less prozone disposal £5m = £25m
Had they in August 2008 had a clear out or not bought certain players what would be the effect financially ?. (figures in brackets = wages saved per year they were here) - btw all guesswork feel free to disagree with the estmated figures
Best sell for £750k (£300k 2009 £300k 2010)
Eastwood - not buy £1.2m (£500k 2009 £500k 2010 £500k 2011 £500k 2012)
Morrison - free (£500k 2009 £500k 2010)
Ward - £750k (£400k 2009 £400k 2010)
Mifsud - £1m (£300k 2009 )
Doyle - £500k (£400k)
thats losses decreased by £9.3m
Save on manager & his staff in much same way as they have with AT say £500k x 3 yrs
Following year or so
cash in on Westwood £2m (would need a new keeper so no wages saved)
No Mcindoe save £800k wages
other reductions in non playing staff etc say £1m per year - say £4m in total (let alone other savings I am sure they have identified and made over the years)
Purely illustrative but you get the picture. Invest in our youth from day 1, use the loan system while finances stabilised etc. Yes would have upset some fans but they could have communicated it properly and got understanding if not support for their actions.
So we had £25m losses less the potential savings/profits they could have had ....... all that above comes to approx £18m saved.......... leaving losses in 4 years of £7m total
The importance of that is that SISU would only have had to finance £7m in losses - which might leave room & willingness to invest now. It means the groups debts would be £18m less - SISU would require £18m less to be paid out to them in any deal..... investors would be more interested, the balance sheet would look far better etc. It would mean it is more likely debts paid on time, budgets set on time, accounts filed on time - and therefore no transfer embargo! They could have even sold us by now ! The fly in the ointment is whether income could have been maintained and whether we would have been relegated before now.
Yes it is still losses but much more manageable - develop and cash in on a player and you knock big dents into those losses that are left. Start being successful, increasing crowds and breakeven isnt far away is it.
But you get the idea as to why I think SISU got it so wrong at the start financially. But I suppose hind sight is a wonderful thing. I think they neither backed the sorting club finances nor the team to begin with .... kind of got caught neither one nor tuther.... an indecision i am sure they regret and if could do again would not do the same. I think they needed to focus on the finances before anything else, it wouldnt have been an easy period but if you dont get the finances right you run a very real risk of there being no team in the end. Spend without thinking on the team and the risk of a financial crash is great
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ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
Whilst I agree with the principle of what you're saying OSB the truth is that SISU knew and still know nothing about football and the football business. They invested in the club in partnership with an industry expert - Ray Ranson - and trusted him to get it right. Things went for a burton very quickly and panic measures were resorted to, covered up with a succession of lies, half truths and misinformation. SISU's biggest mistake was trusting Ranson and subsequently Dulieu and Clouting to get the job done and make a return on their investment, or at least minimise the losses. The problem is that currently there appears to be no discernible plan or strategy going forward. The signing of average players like McPake, Bell and Baker into long term contracts was frankly idiocy and demonstrates further disdain or apathy towards the success of the club on and off the pitch long term rather than just a short term P&L exercise. If they were to come out now - directly or via Fisher - and outline the strategy for the coming season a: if we stay up or b: if we go down and explain to the fans what the hell is going on today and tomorrow with the club then maybe they would win over a few fans. As it is they are still the root of all evil and Hoff is the knight in sky blue armour and the clubs future is uncertain at best.
