Rooney Rule (1 Viewer)

[skybluegod]

Just on a positive note we are one of ten teams in the football league, to have agreed to extend the new 'rooney' rule from academy to first team roles. Meaning:

• During the season, clubs will be expected to interview one or more BME candidate for any first-team managerial/coaching role (where an application has been received) in instances where they run a full recruitment process.
• During the close season, clubs will be expected to run a full recruitment process for any first-team managerial/coaching role during which they must interview one or more BME candidates (where an application has been received).

Good on the club.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36499806

 

[theferret]

Never been a fan of positive discrimination. All seems a bit patronising. Plenty of black managers breaking through now, and that'll only encourage more to enter coaching. Would like to think this would mean things change without the need for this sort of intervention.

 

[Nick]

It's a bit of a sensitive subject but I agree it should just happen naturally in this day and age.

I can't help but think that trying to force it for statistics might be even more insulting

 

[skybluetony176]

Never been a fan of positive discrimination. All seems a bit patronising. Plenty of black managers breaking through now, and that'll only encourage more to enter coaching. Would like to think this would mean things change without the need for this sort of intervention.

I agree. Positive discrimination completely misses the point for me. It doesn't change attitudes and it's a lazy way to make it look like the world is changing instead of educating. So for me it cures nothing.

 

[stupot07]

Well done CCFC.

It should happen naturally, but it evidently doesn't given thr small number of black managers in the game in comparison to the % of black players.

Its worked for the NFL so seems the right decision.

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[chiefdave]

Do clubs really not pick the best person for the job because they're from a minority? I couldn't care less if we had a 2 headed purple alien from planet zod in charge if we were winning games.

 

[Nick]

Do clubs really not pick the best person for the job because they're from a minority? I couldn't care less if we had a 2 headed purple alien from planet zod in charge if we were winning games.

Maybe we are naive to think line that?

Are there stats on applications and qualifications and race etc?

 

[sw88]

I don't get how this promotes 'equal' opportunities myself.

I'm all for everyone being given a chance but with this ruling, someone who isn't in a minority but might actually be good at the job required might miss out on an interview because of it.

If your good enough for the job your age, race, religion shouldn't come into it.

 

[Nick]

Plus, would people not get the feeling that they might only be there as the token statistic that had to be there? Rather than for the actual ability?

I'd have expected equal opportunities as standard, not just ccfc but in general.

 

[skybluetony176]

Do clubs really not pick the best person for the job because they're from a minority? I couldn't care less if we had a 2 headed purple alien from planet zod in charge if we were winning games.

Don't be stupid. Everyone knows that they don't play football on the planet Zod.

 

[Winny the Bish]

I'm all for it. Has worked well in the NFL, where there are more black head coaches, coaches and executives among 32 teams than of all the 92 Football League teams.

 

[stupot07]

Plus, would people not get the feeling that they might only be there as the token statistic that had to be there? Rather than for the actual ability?

I'd have expected equal opportunities as standard, not just ccfc but in general.

Its only an interview, and only if they meet the minimum requirements and qualifications. The best candidate will still get the job.

This happens at lots of places for people who have disabilities.

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[chiefdave]

Do we have to sack Mowbray and get Shaw back now?

 

[stupot07]

Do we have to sack Mowbray and get Shaw back now?

No, that's not how it works

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[shmmeee]

IIRC last time this was debated it was shown the issue was around attracting applications rather than discriminatory hiring practices. I dunno about positive discrimination, but maybe in this case it would be better if we looked at the core reasons less black players go into management as well. I suppose this move maybe help remove the idea that they won't get an interview so why apply, but how common is that mindset?

 

[ccfc92]

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but I'd find it more discriminating to interview/hire someone based on their ethnicity, and I'm sure they would too if out of 5 or so people, they were the only "BME" person interviewed?

I fully agree with racial equality, but I also believe in hiring the person best suited to the job, not hiring due to their ethnicity, background, physical appearance etc.

Of course 3 out of 72 managers is low, but is it truly down to discrimination or is it just coincidence/suitability for the job?

 

[Nick]

IIRC last time this was debated it was shown the issue was around attracting applications rather than discriminatory hiring practices. I dunno about positive discrimination, but maybe in this case it would be better if we looked at the core reasons less black players go into management as well. I suppose this move maybe help remove the idea that they won't get an interview so why apply, but how common is that mindset?

You would think it's looking at the causes, I'm no expert in it but what about things like number of applications and yo what jobs, number of qualifications etc.

 

[shmmeee]

Actually 3 out of 72 might not be that low.

I think it's safe to leave Asians out of it for a second because there are separate issues about getting British Asian players into the game full stop, let alone as managers. As it's usually ex players who manage, and I couldn't even name one British Asian pro footballer off the top of my head, I think it's fair to focus on black players.

First consider when black players became common and the age of those players. We need to know the trend and that's hard with such a small sample size, but I'd assume it's going up as more black players retire from the English game.

Secondly according to wiki, black people make up 3% of the population. 3 is 4.1% of 72 so a higher proportion. Though again small numbers mean big jumps easily.

 

[Nick]

Actually 3 out of 72 might not be that low.

I think it's safe to leave Asians out of it for a second because there are separate issues about getting British Asian players into the game full stop, let alone as managers. As it's usually ex players who manage, and I couldn't even name one British Asian pro footballer off the top of my head, I think it's fair to focus on black players.

First consider when black players became common and the age of those players. We need to know the trend and that's hard with such a small sample size, but I'd assume it's going up as more black players retire from the English game.

Secondly according to wiki, black people make up 3% of the population. 3 is 4.1% of 72 so a higher proportion. Though again small numbers mean big jumps easily.

Is the % of population really that low?

 

[chiefdave]

The stat that would help would be how many people who are classed as BME have all their badges and would be qualified to do the job.

 

[stupot07]

Actually 3 out of 72 might not be that low.

I think it's safe to leave Asians out of it for a second because there are separate issues about getting British Asian players into the game full stop, let alone as managers. As it's usually ex players who manage, and I couldn't even name one British Asian pro footballer off the top of my head, I think it's fair to focus on black players.

First consider when black players became common and the age of those players. We need to know the trend and that's hard with such a small sample size, but I'd assume it's going up as more black players retire from the English game.

Secondly according to wiki, black people make up 3% of the population. 3 is 4.1% of 72 so a higher proportion. Though again small numbers mean big jumps easily.

About 25% of professional footballers are black.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30850026

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[chiefdave]

Key stats
Percentage of BAME coaches amongst those 'self-declaring' their ethnicity on the respective FA courses from May 2014
Level One: 6%
Level Two: 9%
Uefa B Licence: 5.6%*
Uefa A Licence: 12.9%*
Uefa Pro-Licence: 6.5%*
Level One (female): 7%
Level Two (female): 5%
* Figures for three seasons, covering August 2011 - May 2014

Of the 230 clubs that make up the seven tiers of English football below the top flight, only 14 have black managers (6.09%)

 

[Nick]

What license is needed for the football league?

 

[stupot07]

Is that all coaches or just professional footballers? Wed need to see what the figures are for pro footballers, given I could do a FIFA licence course and would have absolutely no chance of getting a job in a professional club.

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[chiefdave]

What license is needed for the football league?

Pro for PL, A for the rest of the league including academy managers.

https://www.thepfa.com/coaching/qualifications

Mowbray has Pro.

 

[chiefdave]

Is that all coaches or just professional footballers? Wed need to see what the figures are for pro footballers, given I could do a FIFA licence course and would have absolutely no chance of getting a job in a professional club.

Thats everyone that did the courses. But there will be way more people qualified than jobs available. Like any job you need to get your foot in the door somewhere. One report I found mentioned Richard Shaw but he had a chance here and was useless.

 

[olderskyblue]

Don't be stupid. Everyone knows that they don't play football on the planet Zod.

They used to. It was replaced by franchised rugby...

 

[NorthernWisdom]

I agree. Positive discrimination completely misses the point for me. It doesn't change attitudes and it's a lazy way to make it look like the world is changing instead of educating. So for me it cures nothing.

I don't have a problem with how this is set out however. How many of our jobs are a "full recruitment process" after all? Certainly not Mowbray's, Venus's, or Clapham's...

And interviewing doesn't commit to hiring, all it does is at least give people a voice, and the *chance* to persuade.

 

[shmmeee]

About 25% of professional footballers are black.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30

About 25% of professional footballers are black.

[URL]http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30850026

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850026[/URL]

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Which kind of goes against the idea that football is systematically racist. It's too competitive. If the talent is there it will be used.

In terms of the manager debate its a pretty pointless stat. How many ex pros? What age are they? And most importantly how many apply?

To be clear I have no issue with the rule or any other attempts to improve the situation. I just simply have more faith in humanity than to immediately go to the idea that someone must be racist/sexist/whatever because of statistical quirks.

 

[chiefdave]

What age are they?

That must come into it. Big Cyrille is often mentioned as one of the pioneering black players in England. He's what age now, late 50s? So you're probably talking a generation behind him, at least, before it was completely accepted.

To make a claim of discrimination you really need to drill down on things. Is there any evidence that suggests people are being discriminated against past the 'there's not enough black managers' argument. If people aren't applying for the jobs they can't get them.

 

[hill83]

How far does it go? I'm 1/4 black but look pretty much white, think Giggs and Ross Barkley. Can I sneak an interview?

Joking aside, the rule won't do any harm so I'm all for it. The job will still go to the person best suited to it.

 

[Nick]

How far does it go? I'm 1/4 black but look pretty much white, think Giggs and Ross Barkley. Can I sneak an interview?

Joking aside, the rule won't do any harm so I'm all for it. The job will still go to the person best suited to it.

Ross Barkley is mixed race?

 

[hill83]

Ross Barkley is mixed race?

Exactly. Who knew? But yeah, his dad is half Nigerian.

There's loads of us. Tony Bellew, Stephen Graham (combo out of this is England)

 

[Nick]

Exactly. Who knew? But yeah, his dad is half Nigerian.

There's loads of us. Tony Bellew, Stephen Graham (combo out of this is England)

What, scousers?

 

[hill83]

What, scousers?

Ha ha didn't even notice that!