I don't understand the Thorns doing his best brigade?! (1 Viewer)

[Gaz]

I wouldn't say sacking the manager every season for the last decade is a realistic way to move forward.

Just because you support your manager doesn't mean that you find the situation cheerful, how childish.

Why do people call it moaning???

It's called been a realist.

We're 24th in the league. We're 7 points From safety. What's there to be cheerful about?

 

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[Grendel]

How many managers do we need to sack before you wake up and realise that they're not the problem?

So you think Boothroyd should still be manager then? Or Coleman? After all they were not the problem.

 

[Grendel]

Yes that's right because job security doesn't exist in the world of football. :facepalm:

Doesn't it? Name one manager who has manager lets say, Coventry, who never got another crack at management.

 

[Gaz]

Ah yes the highlight of the footballing world ... The Welsh football management job.
Micky Adams is now at Real Vale and Mr Dowie is so good that he gets to talk about all the teams on TV !
Plus he even has his own headset now you know.

And this of course is the point that never get's answered. According to one observer on here Thorn is the best manager we have had in the last 10 years. Well all of those managers have been re-employed in a managerial capacity again. One even managers a national team. So if Thorn is the best manager in a decade he surely would resign now safe in the knowledge a man of his many talents will immediately be snapped up by another club.

Perhaps he does not share his supporter' view of his own talents.

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

So you think Boothroyd should still be manager then? Or Coleman? After all they were not the problem.

I have been vocal about us not having a strong enough squad since Coleman was at the helm and didn't call for his or Boothroyd's heads. Even summerisle will tell you that.

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

Doesn't it? Name one manager who has manager lets say, Coventry, who never got another crack at management.

I can name plenty that have had to settle for lower wages at lesser clubs though. As with any job common sense tells you that it's harder for a novice to find work.

 

[lordsummerisle]

How many managers do we need to sack before you wake up and realise that they're not the problem?

Sius have always been the problem, and appointing crap managers under their tenure one of the major ones.

Still, if you want to support Sisu and their appointment of a blatantly unsuitable manager, and their continued support for him despite shocking results then continue to do so.

I'd hope and imagine that if anybody did come in to takeover that they would replace him with a proper manager, you however, would I'm sure be disgusted at this turn of events and continue your support for Sisu's appointment?

 

[keef]

Since we got relegated we have clutched at straws regarding managers. We have had some reasonable teams and players for this division and all have under performed.
Strachan should have gone when we got relegated and a decent replacement bought in. We didnt bother with that we dicked about with untried managers while our better players were sold off and we finally ended up where we are now.
I dont think AT is the best manager in the world but neither do i think he's the worst weve had. He hasnt been given a chance because every decent player is sold off or let go due to piss poor management and lack of on field ambition from SISU.
Axing Thorn and bringing in 'the next big thing' is just a waste of time. Until we stop being a selling club, have some form of investment\stability in terms of finances and squad then we might as well just piss into the wind and hope we dont get hit.

 

[oldskyblue58]

According to AT our stats this season except for goal scoring indicate that we should be top 10. If thats the case the players are good enough in his eyes and the problem lies elsewhere. If thats the case, whilst every manager wants more players, he I assume is happy with the squad because it is capable of doing much better - he believes they are good enough not to go down . So where is the problem - to simply say its SISU is not an adequate response, yes part of the problem but there is more at work here than that.

The team is rudderless - it neither has a dominant experienced captain or manager. Often a strong leader will drag players through, make them give more than they realised they had, instills a seige mentality whereby in the 95th minute even running on fumes they know the ball needs to be in row Z. This continued losing of points at ends of games or when in front (21 points) is not just being unlucky that points for me to the work done in training not being good enough. Clearly the players run out of steam when other teams up their game.

The feel I get is that the players are not fit enough and that our management team do not enforce good professional standards. There is no real passion - plenty of good words but not enough action. If AT is stressing how to see games out to players as he said then the message is not getting through - you have to ask why that is

Injuries have certainly contributed as has the sale of players - the reality is that is the same for any team in the League so get used to it - it is a fact of life. Much is often made of the lack of quality on our bench - last few games our bench in theory has been quite strong and against Ipswich did not make a difference because Ipswich did not use any subs.

Bottom line is that there are many reasons for our position not just SISU or AT - I think the last two games have nailed our season. We now need 28 points out of 51 to give ourselves a chance. I do not see that happening

The players, manager, board and owners (even GH) have all contributed to me becoming numb to the fortunes of our team. I continue to go but I keep asking why

 

[CUS Wyken]

I wouldn't say sacking the manager every season for the last decade is a realistic way to move forward.

Just because you support your manager doesn't mean that you find the situation cheerful, how childish.

Haha – that is ridiculous. So because managers have been sacked wrongly in the past, it means we can’t sack Thorn.

Were bottom of the league.

In the past week we’ve dropped 6 points from winning positions. We have won only 1 game out of the last 6.

All the above proves Thorn is not good enough. What is so childish about it?

Thorn and SISU are both to blame. SISU more but Thorn has deffo played his part in the demise of this club. Anyone who can’t see that need to go Specsavers.

 

[Gaz]

What's childish is trying to make out that by supporting Thorn as our manager that we are being cheerful.

No one is saying don't sack Thorn because we have sacked managers wrongly before.
I'm saying, and so is the majority that he is right for our club.
Only winning 1 in the last 6 doesn't point to thorn Not being a good manager, it points to the fact that we havn't got the players to compete in this league.

And anyone that doesn't agree with your view needs to go spec savers ? Again.. How childish.

Haha – that is ridiculous. So because managers have been sacked wrongly in the past, it means we can’t sack Thorn.

Were bottom of the league.

In the past week we’ve dropped 6 points from winning positions. We have won only 1 game out of the last 6.

All the above proves Thorn is not good enough. What is so childish about it?

Thorn and SISU are both to blame. SISU more but Thorn has deffo played his part in the demise of this club. Anyone who can’t see that need to go Specsavers.

 

[Bloodnut1964]

If you can be winning till the 87th minute then professional footballers should hold onto it.

21 points weve dropped after taking the lead. The players are good enough. It's the manager who's not.

You obviously don't think about what you're before you say it do you, try reading it again. You must be very young CUS WYKEN?

 

[CUS Wyken]

What's childish is trying to make out that by supporting Thorn as our manager that we are being cheerful.

No one is saying don't sack Thorn because we have sacked managers wrongly before.
I'm saying, and so is the majority that he is right for our club.
Only winning 1 in the last 6 doesn't point to thorn Not being a good manager, it points to the fact that we havn't got the players to compete in this league.

And anyone that doesn't agree with your view needs to go spec savers ? Again.. How childish.

How is he right for the club? Were bottom of the league...

 

[CUS Wyken]

You obviously don't think about what you're before you say it do you, try reading it again. You must be very young CUS WYKEN?

Can’t you understand that I’m saying professional footballers SHOULD hold onto leads? It don’t help their cause when the manager don’t help by bringing on fresh legs to help those who have battled for 85 mins.

With 20 mins to go Blackpool bought on 3 new players. We keep with our original 10 outfield players and we lose.

Cardiff have done the same this season. You saying there players are not good enough?

The players are OBVIOUSLY good enough to be winning in these games. Its upto the manager to assist in keeping that lead. Whether it be substitutions, changing tactics and been able to see how the opposition are changing their game and reacting.

One more point. Thorn game-plan for games seems fine but its his lack of seeing what’s occurring during the game where the problem is.

 

[oldskyblue58]

actually gaz i dont think the majority are saying AT is right for the club same as most are not saying he is wrong- most people havent expressed an opinion - I think they just accept AT is who we have got for now

 

[CUS Wyken]

actually gaz i dont think the majority are saying AT is right for the club same as most are not saying he is wrong- most people havent expressed an opinion - I think they just accept AT is who we have got for now

Exactly.....

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

If we are good enough to get into winning positions and compete with the majority of the league for 88 minutes then the players are good enough.
All the players need to seek mental help as they obviously have issues with conceding in injury time, I bet every single player on the pitch on Saturday felt they were going to concede that winner.
Carsley was a huge influence in the first half of last season in seeing out games.

 

[Grendel]

I'm saying, and so is the majority that he is right for our club.
Only winning 1 in the last 6 doesn't point to thorn Not being a good manager, it points to

Wrong unless you have polled everyone the Ground. Majority are indifferent to managers and have been for years. Are you seriously telling me there would be thousands of irate supporters chanting outside the Ricoh today if Thorn got sacked. Of course there wouldn't. 90% would just shrug their shoulders and say another one bites the dust.

 

[Gaz]

Wrong unless you have polled everyone the Ground. Majority are indifferent to managers and have been for years. Are you seriously telling me there would be thousands of irate supporters chanting outside the Ricoh today if Thorn got sacked. Of course there wouldn't. 90% would just shrug their shoulders and say another one bites the dust.

No I'm not saying "there would be thousands of irate supporters chanting out side of the Ricoh if Thorn got sacked" So don't try and put words into my mouth.

What I'm saying is that Thorn has the support of the majority of fans still, and people like you need to get over it.
Until I see bad performance after bad performance, I will continue to support AT and the team as what I see is a team falling short due to lack of quality rather than because of a poor manager.

 

[Nick]

Until I see bad performance after bad performance, I will continue to support AT and the team as what I see is a team falling short due to lack of quality rather than because of a poor manager.

Performances don't mean points though, look at our league position....

 

[CUS Wyken]

Performances don't mean points though, look at our league position....

What annoys more with Thorn is his lack of pro-actively seeing to make changes. He always waits until something happens in a game. He only bought Norwood on once they equalised.

Tuesday he only made a sub once Blackpool equalised.

 

[Otis]

If we are good enough to get into winning positions and compete with the majority of the league for 88 minutes then the players are good enough.
All the players need to seek mental help as they obviously have issues with conceding in injury time, I bet every single player on the pitch on Saturday felt they were going to concede that winner.
Carsley was a huge influence in the first half of last season in seeing out games.

Good point.

I don't quite buy this 'we're simply not good enough.' We compete in games for long periods. All these last minute defeats cannot by down to tiredness and inexperience. Some points for sure, but all of them?

Also, if we are as poor as many make out on here then if Thorn does keep us up he has to be the greatest football manager to ever walk the earth doesn't he? Either that, or if he does keep us up then surely we'd be not as bad as many would make us out to be wouldn't we?

If we do eventually stay up then that would surely point to AT underperforming alongside the team right now wouldn't it?

:thinking about::thinking about:

 

[Gaz]

Performances don't mean points though, look at our league position....

Well then that's where the debate is then isn't it.
I say we don't have enough points because of a lack of players good enough for this league.
Where others would suggest it's down to the manager.

If Thorn was a bad manager then we would be putting in bad performances, but we are not, so for me it's the simply that the team isn't good enough.

 

[Otis]

Well then that's where the debate is then isn't it.
I say we don't have enough points because of a lack of players good enough for this league.
Where others would suggest it's down to the manager.

If Thorn was a bad manager then we would be putting in bad performances, but we are not, so for me it's the simply that the team isn't good enough.

My argument though, Gaz, has alwasy been that I expected a struggle, but never, ever expected us to be rock bottom for a long period of of the season and 7 points adrift. We are very much underperforming.

I have us down as a struggling team but not the worst team in the division. Now, either we are the worst team in this division, or a combination of below average quality players and poor management are to blame.

 

[Nick]

If Thorn was a bad manager then we would be putting in bad performances, but we are not, so for me it's the simply that the team isn't good enough.

Surely if the team wasn't good enough we wouldn't be able to put in good performances as all of our players would be so rubbish we couldn't put in a good performance?

 

[oldskyblue58]

depends what your definition of good performance is.

We play keep ball in our own half pretty well, looks nice and controlled but is clearly ineffective because it doesnt achieve the object of the game which is to score more goals than the opposition. Good performance includes defending well, clearly we dont for all the games

We are good enough to get into winning positions so surely the players are good enough to be lower Championship standard. AT says the players he has are good enough so do you back his judgement or not ?

Wouldnt want to go back to hoofball but surely there is a good arguement for saying the team should be set to keep the ball away from our goal and to put pressure on theirs - we achieve that on far too few occassions. Most fans would be happy with a team playing with a bit of blood n thunder, that didnt pass the ball around their own half so much and could at least hang on to the points - that would be good performances. We have lost the mentality of winning and what ever any one says AT contributes to that - we are just debating by how much

 

[Otis]

depends what your definition of good performance is.

We play keep ball in our own half pretty well, looks nice and controlled but is clearly ineffective because it doesnt achieve the object of the game which is to score more goals than the opposition. Good performance includes defending well, clearly we dont for all the games

We are good enough to get into winning positions so surely the players are good enough to be lower Championship standard. AT says the players he has are good enough so do you back his judgement or not ?

Wouldnt want to go back to hoofball but surely there is a good arguement for saying the team should be set to keep the ball away from our goal and to put pressure on theirs - we achieve that on far too few occassions. Most fans would be happy with a team playing with a bit of blood n thunder, that didnt pass the ball around their own half so much and could at least hang on to the points - that would be good performances. We have lost the mentality of winning and what ever any one says AT contributes to that - we are just debating by how much

It's the way I feel too OSB. Can't see how we can be that bad if we keep in games for 85 mins or whatever. Doesn't point to a poor team.

Tireness is probably to blame for some points lost, inexperience too, but you can't conclude all the points are just down to a few factors (tiredness, inexperience, confidence etc.). There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatseover that Andy Thorn has also contributed to our demise and that with a good manager at the helm we would have more points on the board. Not that many more I hasten to add, but even 6-7 points would make all the difference!

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Is this thread a joke? Just read the title. Is the author suggesting that Thorn is not trying his best? He may be many things, but please don't accuse him of not trying 'his best'.

Is his best good enough - another debate; and not to be confused.

There are some Thorn sympathisers. Not many people who think he's wondrous, but people who have some sympathy for a number of reasons. Consider, for example our wage bill is amongst the lowest three in the league. I posted an analysis of relative wages on here last week. Revisit it if you wish. Now, wages aren't everything, but there's a huge correlation between wages played, quality of player therefore attracted, and league position. To step away from this norm takes a very good, or very bad manager; of which Thorn is neither. He's just serving up a league position in proportion to that we invest in our playing squad.

Thorn was appointed because he was cheap. He's the most inexperienced manager in this league. And it shows against his more experienced peers. However, who's more culpable; the man who takes his chance, or the management who appoint an evidently ill-prepared and qualified man? For me, and many, the latter.

We have funded our club like a League One team for the last 12 months, and certainly in line with only a couple of clubs in our division. As such, we have no right to expect anything other than the league position we currently occupy.

Remember the idiom: pay peanuts, get monkeys. We got plenty.....

 

[Nick]

Is this thread a joke? Just read the title. Is the author suggesting that Thorn is not trying his best? He may be many things, but please don't accuse him of not trying 'his best'.

I think that it was just aimed at people who are saying that he shouldn't go because he is trying his best, he is a nice bloke etc.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Surely if the team wasn't good enough we wouldn't be able to put in good performances as all of our players would be so rubbish we couldn't put in a good performance?

Teams are capable of punching above their weight-just look at Norwich right now; full of second tier quality players, but sat half way up the PL. Conceding goals late in games is characteristic of poor stamina and/or a lack of concentration. Working with a razor thin squad means that we will inevitably feel the effects of a demanding fixture schedule more so than other sides, and puts us at a higher risk of injuries than these teams. Injuries of course have bigger effects on the smaller squads as they have fewer players (or in our case, kids) in reserve. In other games, goals have been conceded out of individual lapses in concentration (Clingan at Brighton's a perfect example), which the manager can't be held accountable for-the buck there lies with the players on the pitch. What you get from that is-we have a small, youth heavy squad, being asked to play week in/week out with no real back up.
Point is: good players do not always make for good teams, and bad players don't always make for bad teams.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I think that it was just aimed at people who are saying that he shouldn't go because he is trying his best, he is a nice bloke etc.

Ah, I see. The balance of that which I assert is still fine fare though

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Is a footballing side really one who plays across the back 4? I am pretty sure we looked more dangerous yesterday and against boro when we went direct!

Yes, we can pass it across our defence or in our half, that doesnt make us a footballing side it is other teams letting us play!

This is just wrong. The best move Saturday, leading to a goal, started with lots of short passing in our own half. Lots of fans stupidly started booing, shouting things like "get it forwards!". They couldn't see that we were doing the correct thing, moving opposition players out of position.

If you didn't see the analysis on how Swansea play (MOTD2 I think?), it is strongly advised. Sure we don't have anything like the same quality, but the same principles apply. Pass after pass after pass in their own half, all of which would have been jeered at The Ricoh, whereas they were cheered by Swansea fans who understand the style of play.

In a similar position near the end, Deegan tried to play a direct, forwards "Hollywood" pass: it was intercepted, and Ipswich scored.

Long ball does not equal results. It's a recurring theme on here that if only we hoofed it, we'd soon be climbing the table. Boothroyd showed that is not the case-it's totally one-dimensional and easily "worked out".

Thorn has adjusted his tactics from the Swansea model to slightly more direct-we started "mixing it up" a bit as we were too short-passing at times. It has led to slightly better results, but ultimately, it isn't the tactics that win: it's footballers. Ours just aren't good enough, and there aren't enough of them, compared to our peers. Tactics can give you an edge when sides are even, but when you are miles behind in terms of quality and depth, it won't see you win enough. I'm with Brian Clough on this one!

 

[skybluesteve76]

The thread title is asking why he should stay as manager just because he's a nice bloke and that he is doing his best.


All the best

 

[CUS Wyken]

This is just wrong. The best move Saturday, leading to a goal, started with lots of short passing in our own half. Lots of fans stupidly started booing, shouting things like "get it forwards!". They couldn't see that we were doing the correct thing, moving opposition players out of position.

If you didn't see the analysis on how Swansea play (MOTD2 I think?), it is strongly advised. Sure we don't have anything like the same quality, but the same principles apply. Pass after pass after pass in their own half, all of which would have been jeered at The Ricoh, whereas they were cheered by Swansea fans who understand the style of play.

In a similar position near the end, Deegan tried to play a direct, forwards "Hollywood" pass: it was intercepted, and Ipswich scored.

Long ball does not equal results. It's a recurring theme on here that if only we hoofed it, we'd soon be climbing the table. Boothroyd showed that is not the case-it's totally one-dimensional and easily "worked out".

Thorn has adjusted his tactics from the Swansea model to slightly more direct-we started "mixing it up" a bit as we were too short-passing at times. It has led to slightly better results, but ultimately, it isn't the tactics that win: it's footballers. Ours just aren't good enough, and there aren't enough of them, compared to our peers. Tactics can give you an edge when sides are even, but when you are miles behind in terms of quality and depth, it won't see you win enough. I'm with Brian Clough on this one!

Norwich players man for man against Chelsea or Liverpool are miles apart BUT with a manager who gets the best out of his players they get results. Quality doesn’t automatically win you results however a decent manager does.

Lambert took over a team who lost 7-1 to Colchester United. Now look at them and on a small budget.

It can be done under the right leadership. Same with Swansea, they spent very little too. The year we signed Bell , they signed Dyer and spent less. Who got the best deal?

Difference is, they spent wisely. We haven’t.

 

[torchomatic]

So, what you're saying is if we swapped our complete team for Swansea then they would play poorly because they would be managed by AT?