Do you want to discuss boring politics? (15 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

The big difference with RTB was the lack of replacement provision.

 

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[wingy]

The big difference with RTB was the lack of replacement provision.

Far preferable IMO.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The problem is this sends out the message that as an electorate we'll settle for anything that's even minimally better than absolute dogshit, and after 13 years of the cruellest austerity I dont believe we should.

We have to

 

[shmmeee]

Time to cancel Owen Jones

 

[Grendel]

We have to

No one has to do anything

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

No one has to do anything

Our country does

 

[Grendel]

Our country does

It requires more than a zombie pale imitation of what already exists which will achieve nothing and a leader with zero integrity, values or ambition

 

[Ian1779]

We have to

Where is the evidence he has some sort of a plan?

He’s already talking about more austerity under the guise of ‘fiscal rules’
Doesn’t support the right to peaceful protest, the right to strike
Has watered down his supposed flagship Green policy
Won’t support a ceasefire in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Just what is the point of the man?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Where is the evidence he has some sort of a plan?

He’s already talking about more austerity under the guise of ‘fiscal rules’
Doesn’t support the right to peaceful protest, the right to strike
Has watered down his supposed flagship Green policy
Won’t support a ceasefire in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Just what is the point of the man?

Rishi it is then

 

[PVA]

Won’t support a ceasefire in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

You may have a point on the others, but if you read the Labour amendment you'll see that you are wrong on this one. Unless the issue is that the specific word ceasefire was not used?

• there should be a cessation of fighting
• all human life is equal and there have been far too many deaths of innocent civilians and children in Gaza
• states that the International Criminal Court has jurisdiction to address the conduct of all parties in Gaza and Hamas’ attacks in Israel
• calls on Israel to protect hospitals and lift the siege,
• seeks a guarantee that people in Gaza who are forced to flee will return to their homes
• calls explicitly for an end to the expansion of illegal settlements and end to settler violence in the West Bank,
• demands that humanitarian assistance – food, water, fuel, electricity and medicine – be allowed in on a scale that begins to meet the desperate needs of the people of Gaza
• sees this as “a necessary step to a lasting end to the fighting and a credible political process to deliver peace and a two-state solution.”

 

[Ian1779]

You may have a point on the others, but if you read the Labour amendment you'll see that you are wrong on this one. Unless the issue is that the specific work ceasefire was not used?

• there should be a cessation of fighting
• all human life is equal and there have been far too many deaths of innocent civilians and children in Gaza
• states that the International Criminal Court has jurisdiction to address the conduct of all parties in Gaza and Hamas’ attacks in Israel
• calls on Israel to protect hospitals and lift the siege,
• seeks a guarantee that people in Gaza who are forced to flee will return to their homes
• calls explicitly for an end to the expansion of illegal settlements and end to settler violence in the West Bank,
• demands that humanitarian assistance – food, water, fuel, electricity and medicine – be allowed in on a scale that begins to meet the desperate needs of the people of Gaza
• sees this as “a necessary step to a lasting end to the fighting and a credible political process to deliver peace and a two-state solution.”

So why won’t he come out and say it for himself publicly, instead of hiding behind an amendment.

This is the guy that will lead our country and hasn’t even got the conviction to stand behind his so-called words, which leads me to think he doesn’t believe in this.

 

[Ian1779]

Rishi it is then

That’s a lazy response. Maybe the best course of events would be for Starmer to be PM, but without an outright majority so he will have to require support of other parties that aren’t Tories.

 

[shmmeee]

So why won’t he come out and say it for himself publicly, instead of hiding behind an amendment.

This is the guy that will lead our country and hasn’t even got the conviction to stand behind his so-called words, which leads me to think he doesn’t believe in this.

The answers to all your questions are “because that’s what’s most electorally expedient”. Taking bold stances on controversial issues just isn’t going to happen between now and the GE no matter how much you ask for it.

 

[shmmeee]

That’s a lazy response. Maybe the best course of events would be for Starmer to be PM, but without an outright majority so he will have to require support of other parties that aren’t Tories.

“I want radical change and I’ll achieve this by forcing the Labour Party to be watered down by various right wing and centrist parties”

 

[clint van damme]

The answers to all your questions are “because that’s what’s most electorally expedient”. Taking bold stances on controversial issues just isn’t going to happen between now and the GE no matter how much you ask for it.

You think thats going to change after the election?

 

[shmmeee]

You think thats going to change after the election?

Dunno. But that’s not the question.

We don’t have a presidential system. Labour MPs will want Labour policy, and assuming a decent majority will be able to fight for it. Whereas if we get what you guys want it’ll be super tight discipline to get anything through and even more of an electoral focus.

People who go to become Labour MPs are left wing, no matter how much you’d like to pretend otherwise.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The answers to all your questions are “because that’s what’s most electorally expedient”. Taking bold stances on controversial issues just isn’t going to happen between now and the GE no matter how much you ask for it.

And some people wonder why the country is the way it is

 

[PVA]

And some people wonder why the country is the way it is

Because of the kleptocracy of the last 13 years.

Nothing to do with Keir Starmer's electoral strategy.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Kinnock's politics were more mine than Blair's, but Blair's government was more mine than Thatcher's or Major's.

 

[shmmeee]

And some people wonder why the country is the way it is

Because the left refuses to get elected cos muh principles?

 

[fernandopartridge]

The answers to all your questions are “because that’s what’s most electorally expedient”. Taking bold stances on controversial issues just isn’t going to happen between now and the GE no matter how much you ask for it.

He leaves himself open to yet another claim that he is disingenuous which the media may or may not use depending on how they feel

What's the underlying assumption about the electorate's views on Israel / Palestine anyway?

 

[shmmeee]

He leaves himself open to yet another claim that he is disingenuous which the media may or may not use depending on how they feel

What's the underlying assumption about the electorate's views on Israel / Palestine anyway?

That the last bloke got battered for being antisemitic so probably best to err on the side of caution.

As I said at the time, Corbyns failures meant the next person had to overcorrect. We may have got a more nuanced position out of him (though not entirely sure what you’re after as has been stated he did call got a ceasefire), had he not had to exorcise the “Labour is antisemitic” meme the last guy created.

See also fiscal discipline. All of these are specifically tailored to counter voter perceptions of the party. This is basic electoral politics and the fact the left keeps wetting the bed over it just shows exactly the problem.

I don’t want Starmer. I want a much more radical government. But no one offering that is sane or capable. So this is what we’ve got.

When the Labour left produces something better than Pidcock, Corbyn, Burgeon, and Sultana to vote for they can start whining about the quality of the rest of the party quite frankly.

 

[Grendel]

It’s amazing when people start earning more money the ideology changes

 

[fernandopartridge]

That the last bloke got battered for being antisemitic so probably best to err on the side of caution.

As I said at the time, Corbyns failures meant the next person had to overcorrect. We may have got a more nuanced position out of him (though not entirely sure what you’re after as has been stated he did call got a ceasefire), had he not had to exorcise the “Labour is antisemitic” meme the last guy created.

See also fiscal discipline. All of these are specifically tailored to counter voter perceptions of the party. This is basic electoral politics and the fact the left keeps wetting the bed over it just shows exactly the problem.

I don’t want Starmer. I want a much more radical government. But no one offering that is sane or capable. So this is what we’ve got.

When the Labour left produces something better than Pidcock, Corbyn, Burgeon, and Sultana to vote for they can start whining about the quality of the rest of the party quite frankly.

You don't want Starmer but you do?

 

[Grendel]

You don't want Starmer but you do?

Of course he wants him - Starmer is a classic moderate Tory

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Of course he wants him - Starmer is a classic moderate Tory

Although it's fair to say that Pol Pot or Pinochet would have a fighting chance of seeming appealing options compared to the current government.

 

[clint van damme]

Because the left refuses to get elected cos muh principles?

There's compromise, then there's capitulation. Starmer looks likely to do the latter. I could well be wrong but time will tell.

 

[Ian1779]

That the last bloke got battered for being antisemitic so probably best to err on the side of caution.

As I said at the time, Corbyns failures meant the next person had to overcorrect. We may have got a more nuanced position out of him (though not entirely sure what you’re after as has been stated he did call got a ceasefire), had he not had to exorcise the “Labour is antisemitic” meme the last guy created.

See also fiscal discipline. All of these are specifically tailored to counter voter perceptions of the party. This is basic electoral politics and the fact the left keeps wetting the bed over it just shows exactly the problem.

I don’t want Starmer. I want a much more radical government. But no one offering that is sane or capable. So this is what we’ve got.

When the Labour left produces something better than Pidcock, Corbyn, Burgeon, and Sultana to vote for they can start whining about the quality of the rest of the party quite frankly.

This Corbyn ‘overcorrection’ nonsense is rubbish. Starmer has expelled more Jewish people from the Labour Party than every previous leader combined. Corbyn’s inability to be stand up to the smears against him allowed a narrative to be created that wasn’t accurate - and that is a big failing on his part.
It’s made easy for Starmer though because so called lefties like you, PVA and Pete will wave through any old bollocks he comes out with because it’s ’grown up pragmatism’

 

[shmmeee]

This Corbyn ‘overcorrection’ nonsense is rubbish. Starmer has expelled more Jewish people from the Labour Party than every previous leader combined. Corbyn’s inability to be stand up to the smears against him allowed a narrative to be created that wasn’t accurate - and that is a big failing on his part.
It’s made easy for Starmer though because so called lefties like you, PVA and Pete will wave through any old bollocks he comes out with because it’s ’grown up pragmatism’

What a really fucking weird metric for antisemitism.

“so called lefties”. Listen to yourself man. Just once ask why your chosen politicians keep failing a s answer without blaming everyone else.

 

[shmmeee]

There's compromise, then there's capitulation. Starmer looks likely to do the latter. I could well be wrong but time will tell.

Who has been elected with the correct values in your opinion?

 

[shmmeee]

You don't want Starmer but you do?

Given a magical fantasy land where the electorate consists entirely of you, Ian and CvD then sure.

Given the real world where it’s Labour or Tories, I’ll choose Labour every time.

Why aren’t you angry with the left for fucking up their big change like I am? Why aren’t you frustrated at the glaring lack of talent in the SCG? Why do you keep giving these fucking awful politicians a free pass and blaming people who actually try to get elected instead of whining that everything isn’t fair?

You’re not fucking lefties. You’re in it for the aesthetic and the ability to grumpily sit at the side and say everything is shit. You have no wish for left wing politics to get into power because that might mean having to sully your oh so precious principles. Principles you never want tested in case you find they come up short outside of protest lines and academia.

 

[shmmeee]

Fucking evergreen from Pratchett PBUH

 

[PVA]

Given a magical fantasy land where the electorate consists entirely of you, Ian and CvD then sure.

Given the real world where it’s Labour or Tories, I’ll choose Labour every time.

Why aren’t you angry with the left for fucking up their big change like I am? Why aren’t you frustrated at the glaring lack of talent in the SCG? Why do you keep giving these fucking awful politicians a free pass and blaming people who actually try to get elected instead of whining that everything isn’t fair?

You’re not fucking lefties. You’re in it for the aesthetic and the ability to grumpily sit at the side and say everything is shit. You have no wish for left wing politics to get into power because that might mean having to sully your oh so precious principles. Principles you never want tested in case you find they come up short outside of protest lines and academia.

 

[clint van damme]

Who has been elected with the correct values in your opinion?

It's not about values it's about policies.
Every thing Starmer has said that I can get on board with he's subsequently reneged on.

Not some things, which is why I referred to compromise, but everything.

I just can't get on board with this 'but he's only saying that, wait until he gets elected' shtick.

 

[clint van damme]

What a really fucking weird metric for antisemitism.

“so called lefties”. Listen to yourself man. Just once ask why your chosen politicians keep failing a s answer without blaming everyone else.

To be fair, as is the norm in these types of debates on here, the first person to mention Corbyn is you.

Personally I'd be delighted if he was never mentioned again.