fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Your second paragraph shows how she will indeed fit right into Kier's Labour party
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Okay, I’ll get the crayons out too. Sunak’s small boat/Rwanda policy isn’t cutting through except with the biggest frothers who were most likely going to vote for anyone but Labour anyway. The message you’re talking about is being lost anyway in the noise about Labour welcoming a far right nutter into the party with a history of victim blaming and trying to influence legal proceedings. It’s an own goal, a hollow victory, is more negative than positive. A mistake.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Every proponent of a political ideology requires total policy adherence before they’ll accept their idealised version doesn’t work. They’ll no true Scotsman any and every implementation that could be termed an example of their ideology. For anything in a mixed economy they will claim the good things are caused by adherence to their policy ideals and the bad things by deviation and what’s needed is purity.
If by chance they do get in a position to achieve this they will scare the bejeezus out of voters because they will require a significant change and each change creates winners and losers and makes people fear they’ll be losers. So the more change the more opposition at worst and uncertainty at best. Also as you approach one persons idea of purity, by definition you move further from those who were previously your close allies and arguments with them intensify.
This then leads to defeat, which is then blamed on external malign forces (the anti growth coalition, the neoliberal right wing press) to ensure we can maintain the belief in ideological purity.
This includes various flavours of centrism before anyone says something. It’s a human trait not one particular to an ideology.
If by chance they do get in a position to achieve this they will scare the bejeezus out of voters because they will require a significant change and each change creates winners and losers and makes people fear they’ll be losers. So the more change the more opposition at worst and uncertainty at best. Also as you approach one persons idea of purity, by definition you move further from those who were previously your close allies and arguments with them intensify.
This then leads to defeat, which is then blamed on external malign forces (the anti growth coalition, the neoliberal right wing press) to ensure we can maintain the belief in ideological purity.
This includes various flavours of centrism before anyone says something. It’s a human trait not one particular to an ideology.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
See a trend here? Tories calling their Conversative government ‘socialist’ for lacking a conservative agenda. Likewise, you’ll have Starmer’s Labour government be branded ‘Tory-lite’ this time next year just as Tony Blair was.
The ‘state’ is too big and public sector too unproductive for any reformist government, left or right.
It’s obviously not a problem for Labour, yet.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
There are two parts to electoral strategy: get your vote out and depress theirs.
The people on this thread are as far from swing voters as it gets. This will be seen by the vast majority as “Tory Dover MP defects to Labour”.
Yes I said right at the start of this debate yesterday, the average voter on the street has no idea who Elphicke is, what she stands for, what happened with her husband’s case, they just see a Tory defecting to Labour - that’s literally it to Joe public.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
On the morning Labour announce a ban of fire and rehire the day after they accept a Tory into the ranks who is on the record telling her constituents and ex P&O employees that Tory policy is definitely not to blame for them losing their jobs and was roundly heckled and criticised in Dover for saying so. Even locally this might not prove to be a vote winner. She ain’t popular with some Dover constituents for that reason alone. Could her defection cost Labour Dover? Not within the realms of impossibility. Like I said earlier. I’m not sure who her defection was designed to damage. Starmer or Sunak.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Good post, though the boats thing isn't my issue with her, and I sense a few people agree with me listening to 5live this morning.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
A Tory MP who isn’t as popular as some think in her own constituency following her defence of Tory policy when P&O workers were sacked at a moments notice so they could hire foreign workers on less than minimum wage. Truth is the only reason she got such a majority in the last GE was because the Brexit party pulled out of Dover. I’d say it’s a reasonable argument that those votes will either stay with the Tories or go to reform regardless of her defection.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
This is purely an air war thing. She’s never going to be up for election as a Labour MP so what her constituents think doesn’t really matter.
The intended effect is to bolster thoughts among those on the right that care about immigration that the Tories aren’t up to it. Or as I’ve shown that they’re so left wing and moderate they’ve got a bunch of Labour MPs in waiting. Which either makes them stay home or vote Reform.
Labour doesn’t need to fire up the base. Their target seats are now heavily Tory. The aim is to push Tory voters in Tory strongholds to stay home or vote Lib Dem/Reform and let Labour in.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
She’s going to campaign for Labour on doorsteps in Dover though. What reaction do you think she’ll get on the doorstep of anyone connected to anyone locally who lost their job with P&O. How is she going to be a campaigning asset for Labour in Dover? She’s not going to be backing policies of Reform or the Tories for that matter on immigration which has always had a big cut through in Dover and truer to her own ideology. When you look at even a local level it’s difficult to see how accepting her into the ranks is going to be a campaigning asset. Where’s the gain to a Labour campaign even on a local level?
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Isn't that just the electorate in general?
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I've been trying to understand her reasons for defecting. As she's not up for re-election it's not like she's trying to save her job. Ideologically she's on the right so unlikely to agree with much of Labour policy. If she was staying in politics I'd suggest Reform would be more suited to her.
Which does leave the tiniest possibility it is to undermine Labour and Starmer? As others have said she's unpopular in her constituency due to fire and hire, which wouldn't look good for a Labour MP. And so far I'm seeing far more criticism of Starmer over her joining and how he lacks principles than I have of Tories having an MP defect to Labour due to unhappiness over immigration/small boats. All for the sake of having an extra MP for a few months.
I'd say this is more damaging to Labour than it is to the Tories.
Yes they can read and some people will but most won't. Most people don't care. That's the point.
Philosorapter
Well-Known Member
Absolute waffle
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
All of the anti union legislation passed since 2010 needs to be repealed as a bare minimum.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Course it is. That’s why you can’t rebut it.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
That's what Elphick once called him
StrettoBoy
Well-Known Member
I disagree.
The right to abstain is just as much a part of the democratic process as the right to vote.
I regard it as important to vote and have always done so, even in the low level elections such as for the parish council, but if people don't want to that is their right.
I think they are wrong but they shouldn't be forced to vote.
Bedroom chat
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Seems like it was yet more comedy genius from The Sun/CCHQ
‘Sir Softy’: Starmer insult makes it from Sun headline to PMQs | Keir Starmer | The Guardian
Rishi Sunak’s attempt to attack Labour leader on crime borrows from report about foreign-national criminals
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Completely vacuous
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
No Kier, it's #GetTheToriesOut not #GetTheToriesIn you silly
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Seems like it was yet more comedy genius from The Sun/CCHQ
‘Sir Softy’: Starmer insult makes it from Sun headline to PMQs | Keir Starmer | The Guardian
Rishi Sunak’s attempt to attack Labour leader on crime borrows from report about foreign-national criminalsamp.theguardian.com
It was in her articles she used to scribe for the Morning Star - sorry I mean the Daily Express
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
In the words of Mark and Lard, whoooo!
SNP in opposition is a distinct possibility based on that (yes I know that the polls will narrow and the Tories will end up with more than 13 MP’s at the next GE). Although I suspect the SNP to take a hit at the next GE also. Has there ever been a coalition opposition before? What happens if non of the parties on the opposition benches don’t have the numbers to form a shadow cabinet?
SNP in opposition is a distinct possibility based on that (yes I know that the polls will narrow and the Tories will end up with more than 13 MP’s at the next GE). Although I suspect the SNP to take a hit at the next GE also. Has there ever been a coalition opposition before? What happens if non of the parties on the opposition benches don’t have the numbers to form a shadow cabinet?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Do polls like this factor in the new electoral boundaries?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I would assume so but on those numbers I doubt it would make much difference. The one thing it doesn’t seem to factor in is independents running on the Gaza issue. Pretty clear that issue has the potential to damage Labour votes disproportionately to other parties. I can’t see it being a big enough issue to stop a labour majority but I wouldn’t be surprised if it costs them a seat or two too the benefit of the Tories.
Sick Boy
Well-Known Member
I'm sure a couple of the flip-floppers on here will be along soon to trot out some excuses.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
it's a broad church as long as you are right wing
