Care homes (2 Viewers)

[Otis]

Anyone got any experience of a father or mother, or loved one (or unloved one) going into a care home and their house having to be sold to pay the weekly cost of the residential stay?

What I really want to know is in terms of how much money can my dad give away/spend, on a week by week, or month by month basis

It only talks of reasonable expenses, so is very vague. Anyone had any experience?

House is up for sale and when that is sold, that money won't be touched, but my dad does sometimes give say £50 or £100 each to his relatives from his bank account

I know that is not deviating from the norm, but what IS the norm?

He just wants to know is he going to be queried if he says wants to give someone £500 towards a new car, or for driving lessons etc?

He just gave £100 to my daughter for her uni first year.

The rules seem very vague and confusing.

 

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[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Do you have power of attorney Otis? I might be a bit limited in what advice I can give you, but my great aunt went through this process about two years ago. The house was sold and that money kept her going until she sadly passed away in February. All I wanted to say really was that when she was living on her own she was constantly in and out of hospital, very lonely, and not doing well at all. The last two years or so of her life she went to hospital once, made loads of friends, and had plenty of stuff to do at the care home.

I am sure you will be able to figure something out to abide by the rules and keep everyone happy. Best wishes.

 

[Otis]

No, I don't have power of attorney unfortunately. Only for medical issues. My dad has pretty much full capacity.

Cheers ESB

 

[SBAndy]

Right, point number 1. Get Power of Attorney relating to financial matters sorted now. By the time it’s needed, it’ll be too late as no solicitor will sign off that the individual is right of mind to give PoA.

Currently going through this with my gran who’s been in a care home for around 12-18 months. The cash savings have run out so we’re needing to look at options related to her house. Not a great deal of fun and seems there’s a lot of…let’s call them ‘rogue traders’…about.

Anyway, to answer your question, I don’t think there is a concrete rule but essentially if the local authorities review their expected care contributions vs the patients outgoings and think “that’s not right” then they have the ability to unwind the transactions. It’ll likely never be scrutinised in detail but we work on the basis that ‘normal’ gifts such as birthdays, holiday money, etc is fine. If you were talking a £500 contribution to someone related as a one-off then I wouldn’t see an issue - if it became a regular occurrence then there might be flags if you ever end up in the position of needing financial support from the local authorities.

Oh and do your bloody due diligence on any care home. The one my gran is in has a great reputation but my opinion of them is about as low as is humanly possible. Think they’re a bunch of parasites (more the management than the operational staff).

 

[Flying Fokker]

Legally a person is permitted to give £3000 per annum without any tax implications. Whether this would be deprivation of assets is the question.


Our concern is that our MIL has saved diligently, has a modest flat in a sheltered housing setting. Also has a cash lump sum saved.

It’s ridiculous that a person who has saved all their lives and has a home should pay. Paid taxes all their lives, only to see their assets disappear. The flip side is that we want people to receive a good standard of care, so they will pay for it.


I guess your dad has had a social care provision assessment? He may be able to stay in his home with 4 visits a day? A damn sight cheaper as its £1k plus/week for many care homes. I guess that’s happening already?


Your dad will of course pay a contribution to food/heating etc. in a care home.
Small amount is not means tested in the care home. Personal Spending of about £26/week for toiletries, hairdresser etc.

Deprivation of assets is the problem. The L.A. will likely put a charge on the estate/house.

Found this. It may help.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs10_paying_for_permanent_residential_care_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true#:~:text=The%20local%20authority%20must%20let,for%20your%20own%20personal%20use.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs40_deprivation_of_assets_in_social_care_fcs.pdf

 

[Sbarcher]

It's good you have POA over her health care. Often gets forgotten with awful potential consequences. A friend of ours had been in hospital and needed substantial home care when discharged. With no POA on the health care, the authority insisted on 24hr live in carer which cost £35k/year (on top of boarding and feeding the carer). His wife had no say or influence in the decision and before she knew it hospital type bed and other equipment landed at the house (more expense).
She felt she could have looked after him very well for the 2 years he had left, but that decision was taken out of her hands.

 

[Otis]

Legally a person is permitted to give £3000 per annum without any tax implications. Whether this would be deprivation of assets is the question.


Our concern is that our MIL has saved diligently, has a modest flat in a sheltered housing setting. Also has a cash lump sum saved.

It’s ridiculous that a person who has saved all their lives and has a home should pay. Paid taxes all their lives, only to see their assets disappear. The flip side is that we want people to receive a good standard of care, so they will pay for it.


I guess your dad has had a social care provision assessment? He may be able to stay in his home with 4 visits a day? A damn sight cheaper as its £1k plus/week for many care homes. I guess that’s happening already?


Your dad will of course pay a contribution to food/heating etc. in a care home.
Small amount is not means tested in the care home. Personal Spending of about £26/week for toiletries, hairdresser etc.

Deprivation of assets is the problem. The L.A. will likely put a charge on the estate/house.

Found this. It may help.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs10_paying_for_permanent_residential_care_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true#:~:text=The%20local%20authority%20must%20let,for%20your%20own%20personal%20use.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs40_deprivation_of_assets_in_social_care_fcs.pdf

Unfortunately he couldn't stay his home, because he's a stubborn bastard, who believes he can walk and he can't. He kept falling over and wouldn't wait for the carers.

We had that exact thing in place. Four visits a day, but if he wanted a slice of toast, he would get up to make a slice of toast. He's not having it that he can't walk, this despite his foot being fused and now at a really acute angle to his leg.

So, he had to go in a home. It wasn't fair on the emergency services. I had to keep calling them out and he kept ending up in A&E

 

[Sky_Blue_Daz]

One of the reasons we are moving home is to convince my parents to come and live with us as they fear the thought of moving into a care home Dad has dementia but is happy with the idea but mum is a strong willed stubborn Irish woman and in all honesty in total denial about her having dementia , we have had an offer on property accepted . It has a double garage out the back which I plan to knock down and turn into a self contained flat for them so they still maintain a bit of independence, its going to take time and its going to be a struggle but it will be worth it in the end

 

[Otis]

One of the reasons we are moving home is to convince my parents to come and live with us as they fear the thought of moving into a care home Dad has dementia but is happy with the idea but mum is a strong willed stubborn Irish woman and in all honesty in total denial about her having dementia , we have had an offer on property accepted . It has a double garage out the back which I plan to knock down and turn into a self contained flat for them so they still maintain a bit of independence, its going to take time and its going to be a struggle but it will be worth it in the end

Good luck, Daz.

 

[Sky_Blue_Daz]

Good luck, Daz.

Cheers Otis, going to be a long process but we will get there

 

[Flying Fokker]

One of the reasons we are moving home is to convince my parents to come and live with us as they fear the thought of moving into a care home Dad has dementia but is happy with the idea but mum is a strong willed stubborn Irish woman and in all honesty in total denial about her having dementia , we have had an offer on property accepted . It has a double garage out the back which I plan to knock down and turn into a self contained flat for them so they still maintain a bit of independence, its going to take time and its going to be a struggle but it will be worth it in the end

Are you up to speed. On carers/attendance allowance?

 

[NorthernWisdom]

, we have had an offer on property accepted . It has a double garage out the back which I plan to knock down and turn into a self contained flat for them so they still maintain a bit of independence, its going to take time and its going to be a struggle but it will be worth it in the end

Got to ask the practical question. Planning permission not going to be an issue doing that?

 

[Sky_Blue_Daz]

Are you up to speed. On carers/attendance allowance?

Been in contact with Age concern and Admiral nurses

 

[Sky_Blue_Daz]

Got to ask the practical question. Planning permission not going to be an issue doing that?

I'm lead to believe that the people we are buying from had original plans to have an extension from the house onto the garage a few years ago, so hopefully it wont be an issue

 

[olderskyblue]

I'm lead to believe that the people we are buying from had original plans to have an extension from the house onto the garage a few years ago, so hopefully it wont be an issue

You need to check what those plans were for, and if they got approval

 

[Houchens Head]

Can't really help with you query, Otis, but just to say that my brother (a tad older than me at 73), is now in a care home in Stratford on Avon. He didn't own his own property and rented from Orbit Housing. Over the last 10 years or so, he has deteriorated from slow walking, then 8 years in a wheelchair and now just lays flat on his back all day in the home. They encourage him to try to move but I think he's just given up. His daughter (main carer) met with Social Services and between them, managed to get him into the care home which incidently, is BUPA run. I visit once a fortnight and going over tomorrow.

 

[chiefdave]

He just wants to know is he going to be queried if he says wants to give someone £500 towards a new car, or for driving lessons etc?

He just gave £100 to my daughter for her uni first year.

The rules seem very vague and confusing.

I'd be amazed if that got queried. Think they're more after people giving away thousands, hundred quid here and there isn't going to make much difference to where you are on the scale

From everything I've read its down to a pattern of behaviour. So if he's never given anyone a penny and then starts giving thousands away they would be flagged but if he's given your daughter a few quid before and does again they can't really query that too much

Pretty sure the system is designed to be confusing, going though absolute hell with it at the moment

 

[chiefdave]

Apologies to Otis for hijacking his thread but does anyone have experience with getting a lawyer involved in funding issues. Long story short my Dad is nearly 20 months in to having 6 months maximum left and they've suddenly decided they're taking his funding away with only a couple of weeks notice.

The system is so confusing but from what I can make out they haven't followed the correct process but its near impossible to get hold of anyone or get a reply to anything so thinking it might be worth spending a few quid on a lawyer that knows the system.

Have my suspicions that they're just cutting funding across the board as there's no money and working on the basis most people aren't going to challenge it because they're dealing with a loved one at the end of the life.

 

[rob9872]

The standard of care unfortunately isn't a direct correlation to the price paid and many private homes are about profits. The quality of carer is much more important and they can be good bad or indifferent whether private or state owned. We pay so much tax on everything already to try and save so that our estate can be passed on. My parents have for me and I hope to for my daughter. The rules simply need changing, not to millions but at least to the price of an average family home can be left.

 

[shmmeee]

The standard of care unfortunately isn't a direct correlation to the price paid and many private homes are about profits. The quality of carer is much more important and they can be good bad or indifferent whether private or state owned. We pay so much tax on everything already to try and save so that our estate can be passed on. My parents have for me and I hope to for my daughter. The rules simply need changing, not to millions but at least to the price of an average family home can be left.

Tying care to housing costs is just fundamentally unfair to me. Just come from a thread about how everyone is waiting for their parents to die to pass down this massive unearned wealth, and here we are saying it’ll all be taken to pay for their care anyway.

Is it really too much to ask that everyone gets good care and people can pass a legacy on to their kids?

 

[rob9872]

Tying care to housing costs is just fundamentally unfair to me. Just come from a thread about how everyone is waiting for their parents to die to pass down this massive unearned wealth, and here we are saying it’ll all be taken to pay for their care anyway.

Is it really too much to ask that everyone gets good care and people can pass a legacy on to their kids?

Would be less of an issue if housing to wages was much more affordable.

 

[shmmeee]

Would be less of an issue if housing to wages was much more affordable.

Or if wages were at historic levels. The mix of low pay and high costs in this country is a joke. Housing is just the Cherry on top.

If it wasn’t for my kids I’d be earning twice as much in a house three times as big at the same cost somewhere else. Is all of that housing? What are we doing so wrong?

 

[Flying Fokker]

The standard of care unfortunately isn't a direct correlation to the price paid and many private homes are about profits. The quality of carer is much more important and they can be good bad or indifferent whether private or state owned. We pay so much tax on everything already to try and save so that our estate can be passed on. My parents have for me and I hope to for my daughter. The rules simply need changing, not to millions but at least to the price of an average family home can be left.

If you have a way of passing your wealth on without it being termed ‘deprivation of assets’ I’d be interested to know.

Set up a company? Parents become tenants and co owners of the business? The weak 7 year rule for passing assets on does not mean Social Services leave the assets untouched, particularly if a company is started up.

 

[Flying Fokker]

The standard of care unfortunately isn't a direct correlation to the price paid and many private homes are about profits. The quality of carer is much more important and they can be good bad or indifferent whether private or state owned. We pay so much tax on everything already to try and save so that our estate can be passed on. My parents have for me and I hope to for my daughter. The rules simply need changing, not to millions but at least to the price of an average family home can be left.

The govts. Have no intention of doing this. Look at the lapsed threshold changes which were to be introduced.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Tying care to housing costs is just fundamentally unfair to me. Just come from a thread about how everyone is waiting for their parents to die to pass down this massive unearned wealth, and here we are saying it’ll all be taken to pay for their care anyway.

Is it really too much to ask that everyone gets good care and people can pass a legacy on to their kids?

Nobody has a right to inherit money not earned by them however

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Would be less of an issue if housing to wages was much more affordable.

However having seen this, I moderate my previous reply

 

[shmmeee]

Nobody has a right to inherit money not earned by them however

No, but inherited wealth is also an important way to solidify social mobility and provide a safety net. I think it’s natural to want to build up some kind of legacy for the kids. I actually think it would be less of a concern if the kids could afford housing ik the first place. But it’s still a natural human instinct.

And regardless tying care to it is an illness tax that goes against the very intention of the NHS. It really is a Dementia Tax. If you want to limit intergenerational wealth sharing then tax it where it needs it, don’t let Mother Nature pick at random. Especially as these issues are more likely to affect the poorer people anyway I’d suspect.

 

[chiefdave]

The care system is not fit for purpose in the slightest. The admin and contradictory advice is never ending. When you've got a close relative nearing the end of their life the last thing you want to be dealing with is paperwork but that takes up so much of your time

It's hard to even find outside assistance. Trying to find a solicitor to look at my Dads case at the moment, his funding has been removed despite him clearly being in worse health then when it was first approved, spoken to over 20 solicitors so far none of whom will deal with NHS care boards

 

[Flying Fokker]

Nobody has a right to inherit money not earned by them however

As adults, we should have a right to give our wealth to whoever we want to. Not to be syphoned off by local authorities.
The stats are generally in favour of those who inherit anyway. Due to people having died out of the care system. But this is becoming less so due to people living longer with illness.

 

[Mild-Mannered Janitor]

As adults, we should have a right to give our wealth to whoever we want to. Not to be syphoned off by local authorities.
The stats are generally in favour of those who inherit anyway. Due to people having died out of the care system. But this is becoming less so due to people living longer with illness.

It’s possible, it just takes planning, plenty of time before you need care and most people don’t do that or brave enough to pass down, put in trust or give away.

never been a fan of financial Advisors as they traditionally have advised based on commission structures and their own needs but get the right one and being clear on what you want to do can minimise tax and care costs and allow for greater passing on if that’s what you want.
I’ve told mine their getting nothing anyway, going to give it all away or spend it, maybe leave a few quid for the season ticket fund to carry on long after me

 

[SBAndy]

Apologies to Otis for hijacking his thread but does anyone have experience with getting a lawyer involved in funding issues. Long story short my Dad is nearly 20 months in to having 6 months maximum left and they've suddenly decided they're taking his funding away with only a couple of weeks notice.

The system is so confusing but from what I can make out they haven't followed the correct process but its near impossible to get hold of anyone or get a reply to anything so thinking it might be worth spending a few quid on a lawyer that knows the system.

Have my suspicions that they're just cutting funding across the board as there's no money and working on the basis most people aren't going to challenge it because they're dealing with a loved one at the end of the life.

I believe my family has just instructed someone along vaguely similar lines. I’ll try and get the details if you want?

 

[chiefdave]

I believe my family has just instructed someone along vaguely similar lines. I’ll try and get the details if you want?

yes please mate, that would be very useful

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

As adults, we should have a right to give our wealth to whoever we want to. Not to be syphoned off by local authorities.
The stats are generally in favour of those who inherit anyway. Due to people having died out of the care system. But this is becoming less so due to people living longer with illness.

I agree to a point.

You should be able to leave your family with a roof over their head and food on the table. But when it gets into vast fortunes I disagree - no-one should be given that amount of wealth and privilege just because of who they're related to.

Trouble is the current system is clearly designed to favour those with vast fortunes to pass down by limiting the amount people pay towards care costs. Those with modest assets can lose it all while those who could pay but not really feel the pinch get to keep loads.

It should be limited by the amount of assets. You can pass on £x amount (say £500k) and anything above this is used towards care costs. Admittedly it's not perfect, but it's fairer than the current system and more of a basis to start from.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

If we want people to have care then we need our wealth syphoned off by local authorities.

Of course the fairer way would be to tax everyone more for it, or bump inheritance tax up, so we all pay for one another.

That seems to be an alien concept nowadays however.

Anyway, just remembered what this thread actually started as, so perhaps it's time I bow out as my advice is becoming more polemic, and less useful as a result

 

[Flying Fokker]

I agree to a point.

You should be able to leave your family with a roof over their head and food on the table. But when it gets into vast fortunes I disagree - no-one should be given that amount of wealth and privilege just because of who they're related to.

Trouble is the current system is clearly designed to favour those with vast fortunes to pass down by limiting the amount people pay towards care costs. Those with modest assets can lose it all while those who could pay but not really feel the pinch get to keep loads.

It should be limited by the amount of assets. You can pass on £x amount (say £500k) and anything above this is used towards care costs. Admittedly it's not perfect, but it's fairer than the current system and more of a basis to start from.

500K is a lot of money. That is about 10 years worth of care. There’s a fair chance there would be a bob or two left for inheritors without the 500k bottom limit. That’s where the system fails. Many start with far less and there is little to pass on/ the state picks up the tab earlier. The real hope is that all the elderly receive appropriate levels of care…thus overriding the intention of passing money . My MIL has dementia, they’d have loved to leave a nest egg and thinks she will be doing so, but our priority is her care.