Without actual net investment (1 Viewer)

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Mar 17, 2022

The biggest worry for me is too many of the squad lack an end product. We play this wing back system, but the players we have aren´t really good enough for it in my opinion. Dabo must be making a good argument to head onto the transfer list, I think he has 7 assists and no goals in three seasons. Maatsen for me has some good moments but isn´t currently really good enough. Kane has fallen off the planet, and Bidwell has had a very slow start to put it politely.

The midfield also lack goals, with Sheaf not looking likely to score for the rest of his career, Allen goal shy, O´Hare having a shooting problem, so whilst we have a couple of decent strikers, we have a lot of chances, or possession of the ball in dangerous areas should I say, but an extremely low conversion rate. Here are the stats from last night:

You could copy and paste that from about 80% of our games this season. 12 corners, never going to score. 17 shots and 63% possession yet still lose 2-0. It makes for such an incredibly frustrating watch, which is a shame because you look at the Sheffield United game and almost get half excited for five minutes following that.

We need some investment in the squad, but I am not sure it is going to come.

fernandopartridge · Mar 17, 2022

napolimp said:
This thread is hilarious.

I like how the only two options available are play offs with possible promotion to the Premier league, or certain relegation next season.

No, it says a relegation battle

Travs · Mar 17, 2022

What defines us. Sheff Utd or Hull?

Most likely we're somewhere in the middle.

A team on their day who can roll with the best in the division, but frustratingly inconsistent, which means we'll not grind out enough results to make it.

That's pretty much exactly where we are right now.

Pre-season many people (myself included) thought we'd be similar or worse than last year. But we've improved year on year, and there's nothing to suggest we are going to regress next season.

Becoming serious playoff contenders won't happen overnight, it'll be the biggest jump of the last decade. I expect at some point in the next 2 or 3 seasons we will probably regress to some degree, but talk of relegation battles seems a bit "meltdown" to me.

Colin Steins Smile · Mar 17, 2022

I think we need to be mindful of what has happened to Barnsley this season, in comparison to last year. We've so far managed to climb out of L2 & L1 with some large turnover of players. Such large changes are risky and we've benefited this season from some stability within the squad. Thus allowing for the built culture and ethos within the squad to be maintained.
Hence, I hope it's only a maximum of 10% change.
If we lose a couple of key players and make poor selections with a couple of the replacements, then we could slip back towards the lower half of the table again.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Mar 17, 2022

Granted external investment is desperately needed but it's worth mentioning that at one point last summer we had Jones, Pask, Bright, Dacosta, Hilssner, Mason, Kastaneer, Jobello, Drysdale on the books, all of which were never really going to make any kind of meaningful contribution on the pitch.

So, that was always going to massively impact the club's ability to do further business and subsequently leave us short in numbers going into the season.

With Kelly, Shipley and Walker all likely to be moved on in the summer as well I'd argue that Robins will have far more room to manoeuvre (if he's successful in moving on members of the bomb squad that are still under contract of course) than he did last summer. Granted Bidwell has probably taken up pretty much all of Walker's wages and more but the point still stands.

Regardless, I think until we see what the club is able to do in the next window, it's a bit ridiculous to claim one player departure will automatically plunge us into a relegation battle next season.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Mar 17, 2022

Colin Steins Smile said:
I think we need to be mindful of what has happened to Barnsley this season, in comparison to last year. We've so far managed to climb out of L2 & L1 with some large turnover of players. Such large changes are risky and we've benefited this season from some stability within the squad. Thus allowing for the built culture and ethos within the squad to be maintained.
Hence, I hope it's only a maximum of 10% change.
If we lose a couple of key players and make poor selections with a couple of the replacements, then we could slip back towards the lower half of the table again.

In the space of a summer Barnsley lost their manager, their best player on a free as well their CEO who was instrumental to the entire operation.

It's not the same.

Macca · Mar 17, 2022

SlowerThanPlatt said:
He’s done an admirable job in the circumstances but not sure where he’ll be moving to? Premier League clubs won’t consider him, I thought Sheffield United may come in for him but they’re doing well now.

good question. Maybe top end Championship with a bit of money to play with. Not stupid money just more than here

Deleted member 9744 · Mar 17, 2022

Ccfcisparks said:
I think changing the manager is the only thing you can do with a lack of investment to try and fluke a promotion

Far more likely to result in relegation, unless we can get the very best like Kenny Jackett.

Deleted member 9744 · Mar 17, 2022

Sick Boy said:
If he’s genuinely that good there’s no way we’ll keep hold of him this summer. Let’s hope a bidding war happens so we can avoid selling anyone else.

Yawn

Deleted member 9744 · Mar 17, 2022

Travs said:
What defines us. Sheff Utd or Hull?

Most likely we're somewhere in the middle.

A team on their day who can roll with the best in the division, but frustratingly inconsistent, which means we'll not grind out enough results to make it.

That's pretty much exactly where we are right now.

Pre-season many people (myself included) thought we'd be similar or worse than last year. But we've improved year on year, and there's nothing to suggest we are going to regress next season.

Becoming serious playoff contenders won't happen overnight, it'll be the biggest jump of the last decade. I expect at some point in the next 2 or 3 seasons we will probably regress to some degree, but talk of relegation battles seems a bit "meltdown" to me.

This is outrageous. You're not allowed to be reasonable and balanced mate. Either we get promoted this season or we go down next season. If we miss out total decline next season is inevitable.

Ccfcisparks · Mar 17, 2022

Deleted member 9744 said:
Yawn

Can you argue that outside his goalscoring he is league 1 standard

fernandopartridge · Mar 17, 2022

KenilworthSkyBlue said:
Regardless, I think until we see what the club is able to do in the next window, it's a bit ridiculous to claim one player departure will automatically plunge us into a relegation battle next season.

No, it is not saying that. It's saying that it will already be a struggle as the last 20 games or so (over half the season) have shown that could be further exacerbated by players leaving or even not leaving, as it seems that squad improvement is pretty much predicated on it happening.

Samo · Mar 17, 2022

As has been pointed out, the model under the current regime does not work at this level, we need a change of ownership before our luck runs out and we end up back in L1.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Mar 17, 2022

fernandopartridge said:
No, it is not saying that. It's saying that it will already be a struggle as the last 20 games or so (over half the season) have shown that could be further exacerbated by players leaving or even not leaving, as it seems that squad improvement is pretty much predicated on it happening.

Hasn't squad improvement at the very least been partially based on moving contracted players on season after season though?

Why will it pose more of an issue this summer than it did in previous windows when pretty much the entirety of the bomb squad bar Kelly only has one year or less left remaining on their contracts - making it far easier to move them on?

Grendel · Mar 17, 2022

KenilworthSkyBlue said:
Hasn't squad improvement at the very least been partially based on moving contracted players on season after season though?

Why will it pose more of an issue this summer than it did in previous windows when pretty much the entirety of the bomb squad bar Kelly only has one year or less left remaining on their contracts - making it far easier to move them on?

its more of an issue as we previously were selling players at very high fees for the league we were in

So Maddison, McCallum, McNulty, Stevenson, Bayliss, Harries and Thomas were signed by clubs one or two divisions above where we were.

You can obviously then recruit players for your league with the funds available much easier

Now if say we sell a player for £5 million even if the club permit £3 million to spend by definition it’s much much harder

our wage bill also has already gone up by over 300% in the last 4 years. We don’t have any funding available other than external investor high interest loans.

Any player recruited into the club will demand higher wages as we are a championship club

Without additional actual invested funds - not loans - it’s a whim and a prayer approach to success - not a co-ordinated one

Sick Boy · Mar 17, 2022

Deleted member 9744 said:
Yawn

If he’s second only to Mitrovic then he’s likely to be getting some serious interest over the summer.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Mar 17, 2022

Grendel said:
its more of an issue as we previously were selling players at very high fees for the league we were in

So Maddison, McCallum, McNulty, Stevenson, Bayliss, Harries and Thomas were signed by clubs one or two divisions above where we were.

You can obviously then recruit players for your league with the funds available much easier

Now if say we sell a player for £5 million even if the club permit £3 million to spend by definition it’s much much harder

our wage bill also has already gone up by over 300% in the last 4 years. We don’t have any funding available other than external investor high interest loans.

Any player recruited into the club will demand higher wages as we are a championship club

Without additional actual invested funds - not loans - it’s a whim and a prayer approach to success - not a co-ordinated one

Yeah I get the issue over the medium term.

But I'm more questioning why one player sale translates into a relegation battle next season when realistically it probably won't, or rather there's no way of knowing that.

Undoubtedly it's likely over the next 3-5 years we are going to struggle to remain a Championship outfit under the current operation, as continuously selling first team players in order to finance the pay back of loans and debt is quite obviously completely unsustainable.

clint van damme · Mar 17, 2022

Sick Boy said:
If he’s second only to Mitrovic then he’s likely to be getting some serious interest over the summer.

If only it was that simple!
However, goals per minutes, he is 2nd to Mitrovic, that's a fact. Question marks over his all round contribution though. I thought he offered little last night.

Grendel · Mar 17, 2022

Barnsley said:
It’s the punishment you get for trying to run your club without racking up massive debts.

barnsley lost £4 million in a year in the last published accounts. They are running a higher wage bill than us and Luton having increased the wage bill by around 30% - cash flow has improved as I assume they’ve took out the EFL loan - there is a loan taken out in the accounts which is around the same as the wage increase

I can’t see unless contracts cover a wage reduction how they are sustainable going forward if relegated

Sick Boy · Mar 17, 2022

clint van damme said:
If only it was that simple!
However, goals per minutes, he is 2nd to Mitrovic, that's a fact. Question marks over his all round contribution though. I thought he offered little last night.

Stop being a killjoy.

clint van damme · Mar 17, 2022

Grendel said:
barnsley lost £4 million in a year in the last published accounts. They are running a higher wage bill than us and Luton having increased the wage bill by around 30% - cash flow has improved as I assume they’ve took out the EFL loan - there is a loan taken out in the accounts which is around the same as the wage increase

I can’t see unless contracts cover a wage reduction how they are sustainable going forward if relegated

Which again begs the question why are the owners hanging around?
This is probably as much as the club is going to be worth under their stewardship.
Our crowds will start to dwindle if we don't start well next season, every year that ticks down on the rental agreement must be detrimental to the clubs value, I can't understand their motivation.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Mar 17, 2022

clint van damme said:
Which again begs the question why are the owners hanging around?
This is probably as much as the club is going to be worth under their stewardship.
Our crowds will start to dwindle if we don't start well next season, every year that ticks down on the rental agreement must be detrimental to the clubs value, I can't understand their motivation.

I'm guessing their plan has been the same since Robins came back. To accumulate and sell intangible assets (players) in order to gradually pay off the debt.

I'd imagine the hope is that now we're in the Championship that revenue will be earned more quickly as the potential of earning more from player sales is greater.

Grendel · Mar 17, 2022

clint van damme said:
Which again begs the question why are the owners hanging around?
This is probably as much as the club is going to be worth under their stewardship.
Our crowds will start to dwindle if we don't start well next season, every year that ticks down on the rental agreement must be detrimental to the clubs value, I can't understand their motivation.

because I assume they see they can satisfy investor returns going forward

the club is a means to satisfy returns to anonymous investors. There is no emotion just a calculation which wikk rapidly adjust when needed

I personally think Ryton will be sold and a cheap option at Warwick university will be found and clearly selling players at this level will mean a better return for the investors which is all Sisu care about m

Why would they sell? What is there to sell?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Mar 17, 2022

fernandopartridge said:
We're likely to be in a relegation battle again next season, with such a heavy fixture list early season we can't go into it with such little depth to the squad especially given at least one of our best players will be sold this summer. The last few weeks has exposed this lack of depth

At this stage I agree it will be more of a struggle next season, but I thought this one might be as well and it's gone far better than I was expecting overall.

We have no idea who we may be able to get in on loan, who we can bring in to replace those who will be released, whether we might be able to offload the likes of Walker and Waghorn to reuse their wages. Will we sell one of the crown jewels to bring in a couple of others? We've had seasons wherre the summer recruitment looked pretty decent but didn't live up to expectations and others who arrived with little fanfare and exceeded them. Will other clubs suddenly find themselves in a Derby type situation with points deductions?

So while I'm thinking next season will be harder, I'm not going to write us off without seeing what we manage to do in the summer.

robbiekeane · Mar 17, 2022

Grendel said:
because I assume they see they can satisfy investor returns going forward

the club is a means to satisfy returns to anonymous investors. There is no emotion just a calculation which wikk rapidly adjust when needed

I personally think Ryton will be sold and a cheap option at Warwick university will be found and clearly selling players at this level will mean a better return for the investors which is all Sisu care about m

Why would they sell? What is there to sell?

Are they actually paying out interest on the loans to investors? Genuine question, i honestly got so lost in that shit that i just forgot about it.

Even if they are, they are never actually going to get the principal back are they that they put in/plug the gaps with?

Deleted member 9744 · Mar 17, 2022

Sick Boy said:
If he’s second only to Mitrovic then he’s likely to be getting some serious interest over the summer.

You keep making this point.

The fact is that he is second to Mitrovic in terms of scoring rate, unless you descend to Grendel stats level, in which case Tavares and some guy from Stoke who has also scored one goal are ahead of him.

His shooting and heading ability is really beyond doubt at this level as evidenced by the statistics. Apart from that his game is limited, although I feel he has developed that this season. However, having a consistent goalscorer is really important. We have great players in Hamer, Sheaf and O'Hare but without Godden and Gyokeres' goals we would be in danger of relegation in my view.

Although his skills outside the box are limited they are far superior to Walker's in my view. His movement is better and he gives the ball away much less.

On the issue of his value in the transfer market which you keep raising, no one thinks it is high because of his age. Strikers tend to decline at an earlier age but I feel he will be useful player for us for a few years.

I know you rate Walker very highly. I still feel he has potential but he really has to do far more to develop his game. At the moment he is a penalty box finisher only and poor in the air There is no reason why he shouldn't be able to improve and if he does his value would be far greater than Godden's. But it is a question of whether Walker does develop his all round game. Time is on his side for now.

HuckerbyDublinWhelan · Mar 17, 2022

Why are we definitely relegation battlers next season? I don’t see us doing anything different to the likes of Millwall, Preston and Luton and they’re doing alright.

I’m comfortable in saying we’ll be better than Birmingham, Hull, Blackpool, Bristol City, Rotherham,Reading/Derby/Barnsley,Wigan, whoever wins the play offs in league one, Stoke.

Deleted member 5849 · Mar 17, 2022

Grendel said:
because I assume they see they can satisfy investor returns going forward

the club is a means to satisfy returns to anonymous investors. There is no emotion just a calculation which wikk rapidly adjust when needed

I personally think Ryton will be sold and a cheap option at Warwick university will be found and clearly selling players at this level will mean a better return for the investors which is all Sisu care about m

Why would they sell? What is there to sell?

And effectively we started from net zero a while ago too. We have an asset (if not one worth much!) that requires little in the way of funding that also potentially opens the door to other investment opportunities, so we've moved from high risk high reward to low risk really. Holding onto the club appears to be more a time cost than anything else just atm.

SlowerThanPlatt · Mar 17, 2022

Grendel said:
because I assume they see they can satisfy investor returns going forward

the club is a means to satisfy returns to anonymous investors. There is no emotion just a calculation which wikk rapidly adjust when needed

I personally think Ryton will be sold and a cheap option at Warwick university will be found and clearly selling players at this level will mean a better return for the investors which is all Sisu care about m

Why would they sell? What is there to sell?

Paxman valued the club at £60m

SlowerThanPlatt · Mar 17, 2022

Deleted member 9744 said:
You keep making this point.

The fact is that he is second to Mitrovic in terms of scoring rate, unless you descend to Grendel stats level, in which case Tavares and some guy from Stoke who has also scored one goal are ahead of him.

His shooting and heading ability is really beyond doubt at this level as evidenced by the statistics. Apart from that his game is limited, although I feel he has developed that this season. However, having a consistent goalscorer is really important. We have great players in Hamer, Sheaf and O'Hare but without Godden and Gyokeres' goals we would be in danger of relegation in my view.

Although his skills outside the box are limited they are far superior to Walker's in my view. His movement is better and he gives the ball away much less.

On the issue of his value in the transfer market which you keep raising, no one thinks it is high because of his age. Strikers tend to decline at an earlier age but I feel he will be useful player for us for a few years.

I know you rate Walker very highly. I still feel he has potential but he really has to do far more to develop his game. At the moment he is a penalty box finisher only and poor in the air There is no reason why he shouldn't be able to improve and if he does his value would be far greater than Godden's. But it is a question of whether Walker does develop his all round game. Time is on his side for now.

Waghorn went for £5m when he was 28 I think, so clubs do still stump up money for older players.

fernandopartridge · Mar 17, 2022

SlowerThanPlatt said:
Waghorn went for £5m when he was 28 I think, so clubs do still stump up money for older players.

Although given who paid that for him perhaps not a sane example

Deleted member 9744 · Mar 17, 2022

fernandopartridge said:
Although given who paid that for him perhaps not a sane example

And the market art this level has changed considerably since covid

KenilworthSkyBlue · Mar 17, 2022

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
At this stage I agree it will be more of a struggle next season, but I thought this one might be as well and it's gone far better than I was expecting overall.

We have no idea who we may be able to get in on loan, who we can bring in to replace those who will be released, whether we might be able to offload the likes of Walker and Waghorn to reuse their wages. Will we sell one of the crown jewels to bring in a couple of others? We've had seasons wherre the summer recruitment looked pretty decent but didn't live up to expectations and others who arrived with little fanfare and exceeded them. Will other clubs suddenly find themselves in a Derby type situation with points deductions?

So while I'm thinking next season will be harder, I'm not going to write us off without seeing what we manage to do in the summer.

I very much doubt Robins will look to move Waghorn on.

Alkhen · Mar 17, 2022

Fuck me this place is bleak after a loss.

We have been great year after year and it's the same after every rocky patch the doom mongers start up.

We might sell players in the summer but we will also buy players to replace them, that's football. You only have to stop and think about how much the club have got right in recruitment and general decision making in the last few years to have some confidence it will be ok.

slowpoke · Mar 18, 2022

SlowerThanPlatt said:
Waghorn went for £5m when he was 28 I think, so clubs do still stump up money for older players.

Pre-covid and when Derby were splashing money about like it was going out of fashion, very different ball game nowadays I think championship clubs splashing that sort of money on one player being few and far between now.

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