WINGERS - Where Are They ??? (1 Viewer)

johnniericoh · Nov 15, 2011

Their appears to be a missing ingredient in the modern game today particularly with CCFC - no one wants to be a WINGER.

Let me explain - a winger should possess skills such as:

* playing wide
* attack the full back
* centre the ball
* keep possession

But what we have today as an alternative are:

- wide midfielders
- wing backs
- attacking fullbacks

Anything but wingers.

A football pitch of 110 yards x 70 yards (sorry don't do metric) is quite a big area for 22 players - but most teams play narrow with whoever has the ball attacking wide invariably in mid flow suddenly stops and passes sidewards and backwards and will not take a man on.

Look at the great wingers of CCFC

Tommy Hutch
Steve Hunt
David Smith
Willie Humphries

All appeared years ago but didn't they each make a contribution as a WINGER and were responsible for creating many goals.

We now play at 100 miles per hour, the ball pings about BUT we do not exploit the flanks where I think there is massive potential for additional goal scoring.

Call me an old git (I know you will) but I think we ought to re-cultivate the winger role to our advantage as soon as possible.

PUSB

pusbccfc · Nov 15, 2011

Yeah key ingredient which we don't currently have, Mcsheffery seems dated and has lost much of his pace from back in the day.
Bell, well we seen him run in the 90th minute one game, can't remember which but you could see he has pace but just doesn't seem to run at the full backs!
Baker, just not a winger. Never played there for stockport, ruined by aidy being put there.
I wouldn't mid seeing a 5-3-2 as I believe christie, keogh, clark, hussey are better players when going forward...?

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 15, 2011

The 532 is generally considered (by greater tactical experts than me) to be "tactically outmoded". My only real practical experience of this is that it means the formation tends to fail in most computer games, although I did get it working pretty well with Grays Athletic in FM06. I had Gary Hooper and Freddy back at his spiritual home up front though

When the formation did work well it was when it featured not only great attacking wing-backs (Ziege, Lizarazu) but also a libero, ball-playing defender of the likes of Sammer, Matthaus, or...Mark Wright

The Venables Euro 96 formation was a modern take in that it employed wingers as wing-backs, but the unique bonus in that squad was having two full-backs who could do a job at CB in Neville and Pearce. That helped cover the FB positions and brought some additional distribution quality to the back line. Could Cranie and Keogh fulfil that role for us?

The big ingredient that both formations had that we don't is fierce, ball-winning, grafting midfielders to cover yards.

We should give the original "Ajax Formation" a go next: mega-attacking full-backs, one out-an-out forward who can hold the ball up (Lukas or Platt), Gael and Thomas in central attacking midfield roles but dropping deep to cover the full backs, McSeffrey and Bell or possibly Lukas as attacking wide men with freedom to roam but who tuck in when the full-backs bomb-on, Sammy in the anchor role dropping in for Keogh in the Libero role, with Deegan (if fitter than last game!) in front of him and between the two more attacking CM's. Maybe that was the Plan B Thorn has been working on in the past few weeks?

Or we could just go 442 and hoof it up to Platty

Disorganised1 · Nov 16, 2011

I'd go 3 5 2 with Christie and Hussey as wide player, Thomas and Bigirama playing forward, Sammy as anchor man in midfield and Cranie, Keogh and Clark as rotating centre backs. Would mean Juke and Codie playing together in the middle. Diagonal balls in knocking on to each other or down for Bigi or Thomas coming in.

Sort of 3 2 1 2 2

Disorganised1 · Nov 16, 2011

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Murphy - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - Cameron - - - Wood - - - - Cranie - - - - - - -
- - Christie - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Hussey - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Sammy - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - Thomas - - - - - - - - - - Bigi - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - Juke -- Cody - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Like that

1940 oldfive · Nov 16, 2011

a couple more to add to your list Peter Hill and Ronnie Rees

Bertola · Nov 16, 2011

Swap Keogh for Cameron and that's not a bad side

skyblueinBaku · Nov 16, 2011

1940 oldfive said:
a couple more to add to your list Peter Hill and Ronnie Rees

You beat me to it, Old5. I was just about to remind him of Ronnie Rees. He and Willie made a great combination of wingers.

johnniericoh · Nov 16, 2011

Good shout chaps - in addition to Ronnie Rees and Willie Humphries you could possibly add:

* Dave Clements
* Ernie Hannigan
* Quentin Young

I think the sort of "winger" in modern times has to be Gareth Bale of Spurs - this guy can skin anyone inside or outside and puts a fabulous cross in OR shoots himself - priceless.

PUSB

shmmeee · Nov 16, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
The 532 is generally considered (by greater tactical experts than me) to be "tactically outmoded". My only real practical experience of this is that it means the formation tends to fail in most computer games, although I did get it working pretty well with Grays Athletic in FM06. I had Gary Hooper and Freddy back at his spiritual home up front though

When the formation did work well it was when it featured not only great attacking wing-backs (Ziege, Lizarazu) but also a libero, ball-playing defender of the likes of Sammer, Matthaus, or...Mark Wright

The Venables Euro 96 formation was a modern take in that it employed wingers as wing-backs, but the unique bonus in that squad was having two full-backs who could do a job at CB in Neville and Pearce. That helped cover the FB positions and brought some additional distribution quality to the back line. Could Cranie and Keogh fulfil that role for us?

The big ingredient that both formations had that we don't is fierce, ball-winning, grafting midfielders to cover yards.

We should give the original "Ajax Formation" a go next: mega-attacking full-backs, one out-an-out forward who can hold the ball up (Lukas or Platt), Gael and Thomas in central attacking midfield roles but dropping deep to cover the full backs, McSeffrey and Bell or possibly Lukas as attacking wide men with freedom to roam but who tuck in when the full-backs bomb-on, Sammy in the anchor role dropping in for Keogh in the Libero role, with Deegan (if fitter than last game!) in front of him and between the two more attacking CM's. Maybe that was the Plan B Thorn has been working on in the past few weeks?

Or we could just go 442 and hoof it up to Platty

Trying to visualise this...

-------------Murphy
Christie Keogh Cranie Hussey
------------Clingan
----Bigi ------------ Thomas
Bell ------------------------Sheff
--------------Juke

Like that?

EDIT: Missed the bit about Deegan, so obviously not. help me out here?

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 17, 2011

Kinda like this:

---------------Murphy-----------------
Christie--Keogh---Cranie----Hussey-
---I-----/------\----------------I---
---I--Thomas---Sammy---Bigi----I---
Bell-----\-----------------/---Sheff--
----------\------Juke----/---/------------

Now you mention it, it's basically a 433-but a version that was employed years before the modern version and with a few continental twists.

Deegan doesn't fit in at the moment,mainly due to fitness, but you could use him instead of the younger guys in the attacking CM roles. Only he offers more rigidity and less pace-I can't see him bombing on constantly, he's better at breaking from deep unexpectedly.

Now if you imagine it in Football Manager, Thomas, Sammy and Bigi are all on the same "line", but Bigi/Thomas have a forward arrow (Farrow) going all the way up to either side of Lukas: they start deep and bomb-on, a bit like the 3 players in the central 3 for England in the 433. The principle is overloading that central area but still having numbers getting forwards. It also brings more width and better protection for the full-backs than the diamond. You sacrifice the "hole" player (ineffective this season and a luxury we can't afford) and a striker; in reality, all the best sides play with one up front. Some (Barce) play with zero! We don't have many strikers...we have two that are excellent target-men options, which is why I'd consider Platt in the middle and Lukas as the wide-left man: just give him more license to drift inside. He certainly has the workrate to cloe down the full-backs. I think Bell does too based on recent efforts. Sheff and Cody...well, that's very much up for debate!

Similarly, if it's FM, there would be Farrows on the full-backs, and they'd be on "forward runs often", as would Bigi and Connor. Bell and Baker are interchangeable in 4 of the positions and could be used as subs or as starting options if you want more experience-for all his faults, this is the closest we've got to the Stockport role for Baker:there he had ONE striker ahead of him in a 4411 and plenty of stability behind him. He could have creative freedom, sharing the role of protecting the full-back with the wide man.

For those who might want to try it on FM, Juke is obviously holding the ball up but doesn't have too much creative freedom (STAY IN THE MIDDLE!) . Of the two centre-backs, Keogh has a slightly more attacking mentality and creative freedom and is the one who goes forwards for corners. I'd even let him have the odd forward run-with Sammy "dropping in", we have scope for a double-overlap with Keogh and Christie. Sammy has "forward runs rarely" and is set to the same mentality as Keogh-possibly a notch lower-to make him "drop in" like Dieter Eilts did for Sammer (ah, now I'm conjuring with names..didn't Dieter go into coaching? Hire him now!).

Bell and Sheff are the tricky ones to get right..they are deliberately positioned high up the pitch, and occupying full-backs in their half is vital (at present they gallop forwards unhindered when the balls on the other flank, leading to cross-field balls constantly exposing us). But in the old Ajax formation, Bigi and Connor should be the dudes getting forwards and supporting Juke. Maybe give Sheff more forward runs and cross from byline, even more so if you play Juke there, whereas have Bell slightly wider and crossing from deeper/feeding Cyrus on the overlap. That way Sheff can get on the end of attacks from balls from the right-something he used to do to great profit.

Incidentally, this formation was absolute killer in CM93 (I think it was that one..).

johnniericoh · Nov 17, 2011

What a superb in depth analysis - these sort of contributions are increasing and making SBT a very broad spectrum of interest and participation.

Keep it rolling folks

PUSB

skybluegod · Nov 17, 2011

Disorganised1 said:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Murphy - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - Cameron - - - Wood - - - - Cranie - - - - - - -
- - Christie - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Hussey - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Sammy - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - Thomas - - - - - - - - - - Bigi - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - Juke -- Cody - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Like that

i think this is a terrible idea due to the fact it's to defensive and it's there's a big gap between thomas/bigi and the forwards and there young players.

skybluegod · Nov 17, 2011

shmmeee said:
Trying to visualise this...

-------------Murphy
Christie Keogh Cranie Hussey
------------Clingan
----Bigi ------------ Thomas
Bell ------------------------Sheff
--------------Juke

Like that?

EDIT: Missed the bit about Deegan, so obviously not. help me out here?

i wouldnt play bigi and thomas, i would bring in deggan for tohmas as id dont rate him from what i've seen but he can feel free to prove me wrong where as bigi has impressed me alot! buti dont see us playing one striker!

skybluegod · Nov 17, 2011

-------------Murphy
Christie Keogh Cranie Hussey
----Bigi ------------ clingan
Bell ---------Sheff
------------macdonald or juke
--------------Juke/platt

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Nov 17, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
Kinda like this:

---------------Murphy-----------------
Christie--Keogh---Cranie----Hussey-
---I-----/------\----------------I---
---I--Thomas---Sammy---Bigi----I---
Bell-----\-----------------/---Sheff--
----------\------Juke----/---/------------

Now you mention it, it's basically a 433-but a version that was employed years before the modern version and with a few continental twists.

Deegan doesn't fit in at the moment,mainly due to fitness, but you could use him instead of the younger guys in the attacking CM roles. Only he offers more rigidity and less pace-I can't see him bombing on constantly, he's better at breaking from deep unexpectedly.

Now if you imagine it in Football Manager, Thomas, Sammy and Bigi are all on the same "line", but Bigi/Thomas have a forward arrow (Farrow) going all the way up to either side of Lukas: they start deep and bomb-on, a bit like the 3 players in the central 3 for England in the 433. The principle is overloading that central area but still having numbers getting forwards. It also brings more width and better protection for the full-backs than the diamond. You sacrifice the "hole" player (ineffective this season and a luxury we can't afford) and a striker; in reality, all the best sides play with one up front. Some (Barce) play with zero! We don't have many strikers...we have two that are excellent target-men options, which is why I'd consider Platt in the middle and Lukas as the wide-left man: just give him more license to drift inside. He certainly has the workrate to cloe down the full-backs. I think Bell does too based on recent efforts. Sheff and Cody...well, that's very much up for debate!

Similarly, if it's FM, there would be Farrows on the full-backs, and they'd be on "forward runs often", as would Bigi and Connor. Bell and Baker are interchangeable in 4 of the positions and could be used as subs or as starting options if you want more experience-for all his faults, this is the closest we've got to the Stockport role for Baker:there he had ONE striker ahead of him in a 4411 and plenty of stability behind him. He could have creative freedom, sharing the role of protecting the full-back with the wide man.

For those who might want to try it on FM, Juke is obviously holding the ball up but doesn't have too much creative freedom (STAY IN THE MIDDLE!) . Of the two centre-backs, Keogh has a slightly more attacking mentality and creative freedom and is the one who goes forwards for corners. I'd even let him have the odd forward run-with Sammy "dropping in", we have scope for a double-overlap with Keogh and Christie. Sammy has "forward runs rarely" and is set to the same mentality as Keogh-possibly a notch lower-to make him "drop in" like Dieter Eilts did for Sammer (ah, now I'm conjuring with names..didn't Dieter go into coaching? Hire him now!).

Bell and Sheff are the tricky ones to get right..they are deliberately positioned high up the pitch, and occupying full-backs in their half is vital (at present they gallop forwards unhindered when the balls on the other flank, leading to cross-field balls constantly exposing us). But in the old Ajax formation, Bigi and Connor should be the dudes getting forwards and supporting Juke. Maybe give Sheff more forward runs and cross from byline, even more so if you play Juke there, whereas have Bell slightly wider and crossing from deeper/feeding Cyrus on the overlap. That way Sheff can get on the end of attacks from balls from the right-something he used to do to great profit.

Incidentally, this formation was absolute killer in CM93 (I think it was that one..).

But would our players be intelligent enough to take in all that information?

I say we just hoof it up to Platt.

wingy · Nov 17, 2011

WHINGERS ,We're on here of course:facepalm:

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 17, 2011

CCFC said:
But would our players be intelligent enough to take in all that information?

I say we just hoof it up to Platt.

Yeah, exactly mate..that's what I expect. Can't blame me for fantasising though! We don't exactly have the technical ability of the Dutch of the 70's, heh heh. Well, Gael does...can't WAIT to see him strut his stuff again tomorrow. Red card aside, he produced the two best individual performances of our season in the Leeds and Burnley matches. Touch, natural athleticism, anticipation, movement and passing range...oh yeah

stupot07 · Nov 17, 2011

skybluegod said:
i wouldnt play bigi and thomas, i would bring in deggan for tohmas as id dont rate him from what i've seen but he can feel free to prove me wrong where as bigi has impressed me alot! buti dont see us playing one striker!

perhaps you need to get your eye's tested - did you expect Lionel Messi??

stupot07 · Nov 17, 2011

I don't agree with the 352/532 - no one plays it anymore.

Our strengths is our fullbacks - why to we need to move them further up the pitch? They are getting plenty of crosses in - our big problem is our inability to get men forward to in support of our strikers and get bodies in the box. The 352/532 formation especially with Bigi and Thomas will not help that - they have not showed much desire to get forward and into the box. Also most teams now play 1 up front and that would leave 3 centre backs against 1 striker, and even numbers in midfield and still allow their fullbacks to overlap

Houchens Head · Nov 17, 2011

Centre Forward, Inside Right, Inside Left, Right Winger, Left Winger, Outside Left, Outside Right, Centre Half, Left Half, Right Half. Oh, and the Goalie!.. Now THEY were positions I could understand!!

Houchens Head · Nov 17, 2011

WINGERS - Where Are They ??? (1 Viewer)

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