Who owns Coventry City? (1 Viewer)

John_Silletts_Nose · Feb 13, 2015

Who are the REAL owners of the club?
It has been revealed to the Football League but we, the fans, do not know who owns us. Why not?

Seppala stated that SISU Capital, "shepherd other people's money", so they do not own the club.

Whoever has the money ultimately decides the future of the club.

Does anyone on this forum know?
Can local journalists do some investigation?

Samo · Feb 13, 2015

John_Silletts_Nose said:
Who are the REAL owners of the club?
It has been revealed to the Football League but we, the fans, do not know who owns us. Why not?

Seppala stated that SISU Capital, "shepherd other people's money", so they do not own the club.

Whoever has the money ultimately decides the future of the club.

Does anyone on this forum know?
Can local journalists do some investigation?

That's a bit like saying the bank with whom I have my mortgage don't own my house. Banks shepherd money. SISU own the club.

rupert_bear · Feb 13, 2015

The same question was asked in the House a couple of years ago by the tory MP investigating general football club ownership, forgot his name now Greene ? perhaps. I think we have a number owners all having less than 10% so can remain unknown. Someone will come on and enlarge on that. It makes me wonder if our own Tim Fisher and perhaps even Waggott are one of these unknowns.

John_Silletts_Nose · Feb 13, 2015

Samo said:
That's a bit like saying the bank with whom I have my mortgage don't own my house. Banks shepherd money. SISU own the club.

Most banks are PLC's and so they are owned by the shareholders, which is information that is publicly known.

The Football League wanted to know who are the owners so why can't the fans know the same information.

Whoever owns the money, owns the club and decides the future.

lewys33 · Feb 13, 2015

Don't divert the attention away from the investigation in to the council.

Samo · Feb 13, 2015

John_Silletts_Nose said:
Most banks are PLC's and so they are owned by the shareholders, which is information that is publicly known.

The Football League wanted to know who are the owners so why can't the fans know the same information.

Whoever owns the money, owns the club and decides the future.

I agree that it would be good to know for reasons of transparency but I don't think it will make any difference.
And the notion that whoever owns the money owns the club is not strictly true. You lend me £500, I buy a TV with the money, I still owe you £500 but you don't own the TV, I do.

John_Silletts_Nose · Feb 13, 2015

Samo said:
I agree that it would be good to know for reasons of transparency but I don't think it will make any difference.
And the notion that whoever owns the money owns the club is not strictly true. You lend me £500, I buy a TV with the money, I still owe you £500 but you don't own the TV, I do.

If it makes no difference then let's have the information.

The Football League felt it was important to know.

rupert_bear · Feb 13, 2015

Well if we knew the investors perhaps they could be approached to sell their investment, I don't know how it works, but I assume investors want a return on their investment, I think they will pay sisu to manage their investments but do sisu own us ?

Samo · Feb 13, 2015

John_Silletts_Nose said:
If it makes no difference then let's have the information.

The Football League felt it was important to know.

Agreed.

albatross · Feb 13, 2015

I do not think SISU own the club at all. They run it certainly but the actual ownership is quite convoluted. I believe the actual owners are an investment fund that is controlled by SISU. (even my last statement needs to be checked)

OSB58 did some digging and Identified the companies involved his post is below

By OSB58

SISU capital is owned and controlled by Wynacre limited - very few details available on that company other than it is registered in the British Virgin Islands. Therefore if SISU are seen as the owner (per TF they seem to be) the ultimate ownership of the group must be Wynacre Limited unless there is another entity behind that

Sconset own 96% of SBS&L certainly, SConset being an entity controlled by SISU Capital Ltd. SBS&L own and control Otium. It is the voting shares that denote control and ownership and SBS&L own 90.1%. The other shares 9.9% are owned by ARVO. Yes ARVO own the other shares issued but these are all non voting so carry no control on the basis of the shares.

What ARVO do have is charges over all the assets and charges over the shares of SBS&L together with certain rights on disposal of group companies. In effect nothing can be done without reference to ARVO. Joy Seppala acts as a signatory for ARVO at least, and could well be a director or control ARVO but have seen no evidence of the ownership of ARVO Master Fund so cant say for sure

Otium no longer owns CCFC H Ltd because that company has been dissolved. Much of the debt in CCFC Ltd and CCFC H Ltd was historic dating before 2008 which was discounted in the takeover but such discount not reflected in the CCFC Ltd or CCFC H Ltd accounts. CCFC Ltd will be liquidated once the court cases are done. However the liquidation of both of these has not changed the actual liabilities to SISU or ARVO because their loans remain the same. Just how the group structure has been set up and used.

The only debt that remains is the external debt of the SBS&L group which stood at 47m 31/05/13. of that figure 28.5m was due to the SISU Capital investors loans and 13.4m to ARVO Master Fund

The current liabilities in 2013 were 47m but in 2012 the liabilities were split between current 12m and longer term 31m, total 43m.

CJ_covblaze · Feb 13, 2015

In a statement Joy was referred to as "owner of CCFC". It wasn't "co CCFC owner" or "SISU/Otium owner/director/representative/etc". I'm not sure when that was but I'd say it was in the last 12 months or so.

This is also from the club site last season - "Owner Joy Seppala has spoken exclusively to our official match day programme PUSB. Read an excerpt of the interview below with the full version available in PUSB which can be purchased from Sixfields for today's home tie with Wolverhampton Wanderers."

In 2013 in several articles and statements it wasn't singular, it read as "owners".

John_Silletts_Nose · Feb 13, 2015

CJ_covblaze said:
In a statement Joy was referred to as "owner of CCFC". It wasn't "co CCFC owner" or "SISU/Otium owner/director/representative/etc". I'm not sure when that was but I'd say it was in the last 12 months or so.

This is also from the club site last season - "Owner Joy Seppala has spoken exclusively to our official match day programme PUSB. Read an excerpt of the interview below with the full version available in PUSB which can be purchased from Sixfields for today's home tie with Wolverhampton Wanderers."

In 2013 in several articles and statements it wasn't singular, it read as "owners".

I used the quote, "..shepherd other people's money", from this article, http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-fc-owner-joy-6096912

The Football League wanted to know who owns the club, so why can't the fans have the same information.

chiefdave · Feb 13, 2015

In practical terms SISU are the owners. It's not their money in all probability but if you have a pension you don't go around saying you own the companies your pension is invested into. At most if your investment is underperforming you move it out of that fund.

Ashdown · Feb 13, 2015

albatross said:
I do not think SISU own the club at all. They run it certainly but the actual ownership is quite convoluted. I believe the actual owners are an investment fund that is controlled by SISU. (even my last statement needs to be checked)

OSB58 did some digging and Identified the companies involved his post is below

By OSB58

SISU capital is owned and controlled by Wynacre limited - very few details available on that company other than it is registered in the British Virgin Islands. Therefore if SISU are seen as the owner (per TF they seem to be) the ultimate ownership of the group must be Wynacre Limited unless there is another entity behind that

Sconset own 96% of SBS&L certainly, SConset being an entity controlled by SISU Capital Ltd. SBS&L own and control Otium. It is the voting shares that denote control and ownership and SBS&L own 90.1%. The other shares 9.9% are owned by ARVO. Yes ARVO own the other shares issued but these are all non voting so carry no control on the basis of the shares.

What ARVO do have is charges over all the assets and charges over the shares of SBS&L together with certain rights on disposal of group companies. In effect nothing can be done without reference to ARVO. Joy Seppala acts as a signatory for ARVO at least, and could well be a director or control ARVO but have seen no evidence of the ownership of ARVO Master Fund so cant say for sure

Otium no longer owns CCFC H Ltd because that company has been dissolved. Much of the debt in CCFC Ltd and CCFC H Ltd was historic dating before 2008 which was discounted in the takeover but such discount not reflected in the CCFC Ltd or CCFC H Ltd accounts. CCFC Ltd will be liquidated once the court cases are done. However the liquidation of both of these has not changed the actual liabilities to SISU or ARVO because their loans remain the same. Just how the group structure has been set up and used.

The only debt that remains is the external debt of the SBS&L group which stood at 47m 31/05/13. of that figure 28.5m was due to the SISU Capital investors loans and 13.4m to ARVO Master Fund

The current liabilities in 2013 were 47m but in 2012 the liabilities were split between current 12m and longer term 31m, total 43m.

How depressing and therein lies the problem and why know one outside of the ivory tower really knows the true picture, why they remain or future strategy !?

Godiva · Feb 13, 2015

Say you have a rich uncle and ask him how he manage his fortune his reply could be something like:

Well, I have a small amount in the bank. Just enough to make sure I'm never short of cash.
The rest I try to keep distributed this way:
About 30% is invested in bonds that yields a low, but predictable interest.
Then another 30% is invested in shares listed on FTSE. Never more than 5% in any one share. This usually provide the same yield as the general FTSE index and so is somewhat variable and mirrors the general national economy.
Another 30% is managed by a professional investment fund. I have instructed them to invest in Green Technologies world wide. The yield depends on the skill of the fund manager as well as the general green tech market.
The rest I have placed in the hands of a hedge fund. Could be Morgan Stanley or Merryl Lynch or some minor unknown company like SISU. This is a very speculative type of investment that usually provide either a spectacular profit or a spectacular loss.

So in answer to the OP - Sisu is managing other peoples money. Rich peoples money. Rich peoples lottery tickets.
When they took over the club the money they invested came from five small funds (investment pools). Each fund had money from at least 10 different people - that way nobody owned more than 10% of the fund and so nobody was required to be listed as a major shareholder ... this also means that none of the shareholders was required to pass any Fit & Proper test by the FA.

The above is related to before 2013 when the club was CCFC Holding and CCFC Limited. After the administration the club changed owners and are now Otium - see albertros' post with OSB's comments for current ownership structure.

Captain Dart · Feb 13, 2015

rupert_bear said:
The same question was asked in the House a couple of years ago by the tory MP investigating general football club ownership, forgot his name now Greene ? perhaps. I think we have a number owners all having less than 10% so can remain unknown. Someone will come on and enlarge on that. It makes me wonder if our own Tim Fisher and perhaps even Waggott are one of these unknowns.

Ask SW, TF & JS directly if they or any of their their immediate family own any part of the club, however small. Anything but a denial means they do.

And why not ask how many individuals have a stake. The only one ever confirmed was Brody, which makes me respect him more than the others who remain hidden, whoever they are.

Don't expect any answers though

Sky Blue Dal · Feb 13, 2015

lewys33 said:
Don't divert the attention away from the investigation in to the council.

Is that you Les???

Houchens Head · Feb 13, 2015

You could try this:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/
:thinking about:

CJ_covblaze · Feb 13, 2015

John_Silletts_Nose said:
I used the quote, "..shepherd other people's money", from this article, http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-fc-owner-joy-6096912

The Football League wanted to know who owns the club, so why can't the fans have the same information.

100% agree. In fact it's in the rules that every club has to detail any individual that owns more than 10% on their website. Someone from our board looked into it sometime ago and there were a few clubs that didn't do so.

CJ_covblaze · Feb 13, 2015

Houchens Head said:
You could try this:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/
:thinking about:

They're not obliged to reply sadly.

Godiva · Feb 13, 2015

CJ_covblaze said:
100% agree. In fact it's in the rules that every club has to detail any individual that owns more than 10% on their website. Someone from our board looked into it sometime ago and there were a few clubs that didn't do so.

Godiva said:
When they took over the club the money they invested came from five small funds (investment pools). Each fund had money from at least 10 different people - that way nobody owned more than 10% of the fund and so nobody was required to be listed as a major shareholder ... this also means that none of the shareholders was required to pass any Fit & Proper test by the FA.

CJ_covblaze · Feb 13, 2015

Correct however why would Joy be referred to as "the owner"?

Godiva · Feb 13, 2015

CJ_covblaze said:
Correct however why would Joy be referred to as "the owner"?

Because she's the owner of sisu?

skybluetony176 · Feb 13, 2015

lewys33 said:
Don't divert the attention away from the investigation in to the council.

Yeah John (the OP). If you want to talk about CCFC sod off onto a CCC forum. This forum is for about everying but CCFC, do keep up

Captain Dart · Feb 13, 2015

CJ_covblaze said:
Correct however why would Joy be referred to as "the owner"?

Shouldn't she be called the Shepherdess, if that isn't too politically incorrect these days?

James Smith · Feb 13, 2015

Godiva said:
Because she's the owner of sisu?

I'm getting lost (and not for the first time) does she therefore own Wynacre which OSB58 said owned Sisu? Or is that something called something similar to Sisu Capital that Wynacre

Joy has no limits when we look to the sky.

Godiva · Feb 13, 2015

James Smith said:
I'm getting lost (and not for the first time) does she therefore own Wynacre which OSB58 said owned Sisu? Or is that something called something similar to Sisu Capital that Wynacre

Joy has no limits when we look to the sky.

It's all very complicated. Sisu, Scornset, Arvo ... SBS&L, ccfc holdings, ccfc limited, otium ... ACL, FIL, North Coventry Holdings, Higgs Charity, Compass, IEC ...

Is it any wonder we get lost in the who-is-who?

skyblueinBaku · Feb 13, 2015

Godiva said:
It's all very complicated. Sisu, Scornset, Arvo ... SBS&L, ccfc holdings, ccfc limited, otium ... ACL, FIL, North Coventry Holdings, Higgs Charity, Compass, IEC ...

Is it any wonder we get lost in the who-is-who?

I assume that's the whole idea of the setup, Godiva.

James Smith · Feb 13, 2015

Godiva said:
It's all very complicated. Sisu, Scornset, Arvo ... SBS&L, ccfc holdings, ccfc limited, otium ... ACL, FIL, North Coventry Holdings, Higgs Charity, Compass, IEC ...

Is it any wonder we get lost in the who-is-who?

Agree - Otium for the masses.

Joy has no limits when we look to the sky.

John_Silletts_Nose · Feb 13, 2015

I would be fairly sure that the Football League were presented with a simple, straight-forward ownership model which they approved as sufficient to allow the club to move to Northampton, as this was required to prove that the club could be funded in Northampton should the attendances be much lower than the previous season.

chiefdave · Feb 13, 2015

I think people are reading too much into this. Joy is called the owner as she is in practical terms. They not going to say person who owns the company that manages the funds used to purchase and operate the club every time she's mentioned!

wingy · Feb 13, 2015

Godiva said:
It's all very complicated. Sisu, Scornset, Arvo ... SBS&L, ccfc holdings, ccfc limited, otium ... ACL, FIL, North Coventry Holdings, Higgs Charity, Compass, IEC ...

Is it any wonder we get lost in the who-is-who?

Yes with WINACRE at the top
I've heard a wealthy Lebanese chap
Andre somebody

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Feb 13, 2015

Godiva said:
It's all very complicated. Sisu, Scornset, Arvo ... SBS&L, ccfc holdings, ccfc limited, otium ... ACL, FIL, North Coventry Holdings, Higgs Charity, Compass, IEC ...

Is it any wonder we get lost in the who-is-who?

Too complicated, I'll just stick with SISU OUT!

georgehudson · Feb 13, 2015

which ever way it is presented,
i doubt whether those who have put money forward are fully aware of the way in which their investment is, or has been used,
if indeed they were made aware,
i think they would withdraw their funds

CJ_covblaze · Feb 13, 2015

Godiva said:
Because she's the owner of sisu?

It was stated she was the club owner. Not one of a few. If this is the case why isn't she listed as so on the club website?

James Smith said:
I'm getting lost (and not for the first time) does she therefore own Wynacre which OSB58 said owned Sisu? Or is that something called something similar to Sisu Capital that Wynacre

Joy has no limits when we look to the sky.

wingy said:
Yes with WINACRE at the top
I've heard a wealthy Lebanese chap
Andre somebody

Correct. French Lebanese. He's called Antoine. Did a lot of digging, long phone calls to the British Virgin Islands and a visit or two to their embassy in London (about 5 mins walk from SISU's current HQ and even closer to their old one) but I couldn't find out any more than that aside from a few documents that didn't really lead anywhere.

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