Where's the deal? (1 Viewer)

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 3, 2012

I'm a tad confused.

I hope like everyone else that the Hoff takes over from these mugs, SISU, but where is the investment attraction for the people he brings in?

For example;

The debt when SISU took over was £30million (ish)
They only rolled this over for 3 and a half season (this being the last season)...telling creditors that they had a plan (promotion of buy the Ricoh, I assume) which would enable the debt to be paid.
SISU's plan has gone wrong...and now the debt is £40million (ish)...we have no accurate number as we have no accounts since May 2008 for CCFC holdings, or whichever company we are owned by.
We have weekly/monthly losses of several (hundreds of) thousands...although I recognise that these will disappear when the debt is paid off and the Ricoh is owned.
A new investor(s) would have to take on some/all of the debt, and then have money to buy players and the Ricoh (or share of).
The above would cost near enough £70-£100million depending on whether they buy a whole or part share of the Ricoh.
However, the Ricoh is only making a couple of million profit a year (at most), and the playing side will only make money when we go up to the Premier....which is not until at least 2103/14....by when who knows if the Premier League gravy train will be off the rails.

Just a few musings, chaps...but I'm sure the Hoff has a masterplan!!!!

Danceswithhorses · Jan 3, 2012

LeamingtonBootBoy said:
However, the Ricoh is only making a couple of million profit a year (at most), and the playing side will only make money when we go up to the Premier....which is not until at least 2103/14....by when who knows if the Premier League gravy train will be off the rails.

2103....that sounds about the right timeframe for our promotion push lol

Godiva · Jan 3, 2012

LeamingtonBootBoy said:
I'm a tad confused.

I hope like everyone else that the Hoff takes over from these mugs, SISU, but where is the investment attraction for the people he brings in?

For example;

The debt when SISU took over was £30million (ish)

They only rolled this over for 3 and a half season (this being the last season)...telling creditors that they had a plan (promotion of buy the Ricoh, I assume) which would enable the debt to be paid.

SISU's plan has gone wrong...and now the debt is £40million (ish)...we have no accurate number as we have no accounts since May 2008 for CCFC holdings, or whichever company we are owned by.

We have weekly/monthly losses of several (hundreds of) thousands...although I recognise that these will disappear when the debt is paid off and the Ricoh is owned.

A new investor(s) would have to take on some/all of the debt, and then have money to buy players and the Ricoh (or share of).

The above would cost near enough £70-£100million depending on whether they buy a whole or part share of the Ricoh.

However, the Ricoh is only making a couple of million profit a year (at most), and the playing side will only make money when we go up to the Premier....which is not until at least 2103/14....by when who knows if the Premier League gravy train will be off the rails.

Just a few musings, chaps...but I'm sure the Hoff has a masterplan!!!!

There are some flaws in your figures, please take a moment to read OSB's brilliant piece here: http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/11316-FAQ-2-Money-Talks

But your conclusion hits home quite accurate.
How will new investors see the financial opportunities?
Surely investors want a return on their investment, and they can't have that unless the club is run with a profit.

Most posts about new investors fail to discuss exactly HOW the club can get into positive financial figures and make a profit for the owners.

oldskyblue58 · Jan 3, 2012

LeamingtonBootBoy said:
I'm a tad confused.

I hope like everyone else that the Hoff takes over from these mugs, SISU, but where is the investment attraction for the people he brings in?

For example;

The debt when SISU took over was £30million (ish)

They only rolled this over for 3 and a half season (this being the last season)...telling creditors that they had a plan (promotion of buy the Ricoh, I assume) which would enable the debt to be paid.

SISU's plan has gone wrong...and now the debt is £40million (ish)...we have no accurate number as we have no accounts since May 2008 for CCFC holdings, or whichever company we are owned by.

We have weekly/monthly losses of several (hundreds of) thousands...although I recognise that these will disappear when the debt is paid off and the Ricoh is owned.

A new investor(s) would have to take on some/all of the debt, and then have money to buy players and the Ricoh (or share of).

The above would cost near enough £70-£100million depending on whether they buy a whole or part share of the Ricoh.

However, the Ricoh is only making a couple of million profit a year (at most), and the playing side will only make money when we go up to the Premier....which is not until at least 2103/14....by when who knows if the Premier League gravy train will be off the rails.

Just a few musings, chaps...but I'm sure the Hoff has a masterplan!!!!

Got to be honest LBB i fail to see the attraction in financial terms of investing in most clubs let alone ours. We have next to no assets so that makes the attraction even less - which doesnt help GH or anyone else broker a deal. Any deal will not happen quickly and certainly there is no indication of any deal to purchase the stadium.

Btw Last accounts for all the group companies are 2010. No guarantee losses end when SISU debt paid off - last info says there has been no interest paid to them so no cost included in the current losses.... any new finance might include interest and increase losses. Any purchase of the stadium could well mean loans and interest to be repaid.

As it stands only the shares in ACL which owns the long lease of the Ricoh are potentially for sale, no one has said the freehold is up for sale.

The 2011 accounts for ACL show profits circa £500K - that isnt going to make a great difference to CCFC even if they could get their hands on it!

SkyBlueMania · Jan 3, 2012

I nearly posted the exact same thread yesterday Leamington but thought my way out of it! You've raised a few points i didn't consider which now makes me question the feasibility of the whole thing once again! The way i see it the investors have two possible motives for purchasing us.

One possible scenario is that we would be a 'play thing' like Man City or Chelsea where by the owner is looking to boost his ego by owning a top team. In this case he would simply throw cash at the club and is looking for a team with a large possible fanbase and a little history perhaps?

The other scenario of them being simple investors is a little more confusing. Of course by investing large sums of money they will expect us to reach the premier league, but this milestone alone does not make a financially successful club, look at Birmingham/Pompey for good examples (Dodgy owners may play a role here though). I would love to know the investors motivations over all other nuggets of information from Hoffman. Are they in it for money? in which case we would be in no better a situation i don't think. Are they in it to create a Premier League team and reap the benefits that this creates? More appealing but still leaves questions unanswered.

Jack Griffin · Jan 3, 2012

So is OSB hinting that the recent increase in CCFC debts is possibly due to SISU charging interest on their loans? Perhaps the Coventry Telegraph should have the balls to ask that question directly, if they get an evasive reply that is as good as a yes in my book!

crowsnest · Jan 3, 2012

Jack Griffin said:
So is OSB hinting that the recent increase in CCFC debts is possibly due to SISU charging interest on their loans? Perhaps the Coventry Telegraph should have the balls to ask that question directly, if they get an evasive reply that is as good as a yes in my book!

I think OSB is referring to the new investors possibly charging interest.

blueflint · Jan 3, 2012

we have no new investors we are not up for sale we are in deep do do hoff may be a better option but not when he cant get hold of the club :blue::blue::blue:

georgehudson · Jan 3, 2012

in the words of 'manuel' - fawlty towers,
'i know nothing',
i am suitably amazed that 'oi' or 'jc' have not commented on our current situation,
surely our board are 'on the case',
your silence speaks volumes,

Nonleagueherewecome · Jan 3, 2012

I still can't believe most people think billionaires go into football to make money. As the Everton chairman keeps saying, they are mugs if they are thinking that way! Lerner, Whelan, Abramovic, Madjeski, Stoke Bloke...there's just a few who have "invested" in their clubs and waved goodbye to the money they put in. Football is a money burning machine, unless you hoist the club up by the balls and cripple it with debt like the morally bankrupt Glaziers have with Man U.

That said, if there is a way to make money it's by getting promoted to The Premiership. But with the mess that buying the debt-laden, stadium-less mess that CCFC is, anyone expecting to make money would have to be stark raving bonkers! It would take longer to make a profit with us than almost any club they could try to acquire.

So, we just have to hope that it's a nouveau rich Chinese football nut on a bit of an ego trip and hoping to prove his wealthy, sophisticated significance. Like the way they love buying our whiskey these days .

Godiva · Jan 3, 2012

I suggested long ago that most supporters expect our owners to be sugar daddys, but was shot down in flames.

TheParsonsHose · Jan 3, 2012

That's how young fans of the game today expect it to be......too much of it has killed the game so much thats all some pople see.

lordsummerisle · Jan 3, 2012

If there was anybody with serious amounts of money they want to spunk on a football team, then unfortunately there are a lot better candidates around than us, some already in The Premiership(Everton spring to mind, Kenwright been trying to get them off his hands for years).

Others, in this league and below, who have a better fanbase, history, and own their grounds, Leeds, Birmingham(beware of so-called wealthy Chinese owners), Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield United, Derby and Forest.

Could only see somebody coming in and trying to do it on the cheap again, like Sisu have, and if it doesn't work then the same happening as now.

Would be great to live within our means, but would mean even less players and quality based on our crowds, and not owning our own ground. Would need everybody else to as well, but the FA/Premier League /Football League lack the bollocks to make it so.

The Bundesliga approach by far the best way to go.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 3, 2012

I just want to know who is taking over the club...if there is a takeover....????

If so, and I have long had my suspicions of SISU (and RR when he was here...and well as Uncle Joe, but that's another story), let's make sure that it's not a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire, eh???

I know Hoffman is pally pally with the fans, I had a drink with hime at Doncaster and he is very charming and says all the right things...but let'e get a few things straight;

1) I've been going home and away for almost 30 years and I'd never seen him at away games before a few months ago...never seen in in the away end or in the pub
2) Hoffman is a businessman and may be seeing this as a business deal...hence my intial post asking for clarity
3) Is Hoffman putting his money into the deal, or is he (as we suspect) a front man? If so, who are these investors, what are their intentions, what is the role of indviduals such as Hoffman and Uncle Joe....not more free tickets in the swanky seats, and prawn sandwiches based on our loyalty....?????

Not wanting to piss on anyone's cornflakes, but let's make sure we get it right this time, eh?

TheParsonsHose · Jan 3, 2012

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-league

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 3, 2012

Thanks, that answers my questions.

lordsummerisle · Jan 3, 2012

TheParsonsHose said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-league

Exactly what we'd need, though haven't been to a game in Germany since about '91 when i was based over there, was Shalke against Wattensheide(or Watten- Scheisse, as the Schalke fans called them).

About 50,000 fans there, cheap,great atmosphere, decent. reasonably priced beer at my seat, only bad thing was the amount of mullets and blokes with their jackets with there arms rolled up Sonny Crocket style.

Stevec189 · Jan 3, 2012

SISU failed because they under valued the amount of capital needed to run a successful Championship football club. It would be interesting to know what proportion of revenue the clubs mentioned by lordsummerislehttp://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/members/1983-lordsummerisleabove spend on wages. CCFC could not go on spending in excess of 100% of revenue on wages - it is unsustainable. I agree the Bundesliga approach is the way to go but the Premier League and the FA think themselves above such things as simply economics.

I am just waiting for Sky to turn around and say no more boys - this year the product is only worth X where this is a much smaller amount than that currently being paid. Or the big 4/5 say "screw you we are going alone" Sky will pay much less for what is left! Football is doomed not just CCFC!

lordsummerisle · Jan 3, 2012

LeamingtonBootBoy said:
Thanks, that answers my questions.

Nobody has answers to the original questions you asked, because nobody even wants to ask the questions in the first place.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 3, 2012

Stevec189 said:
SISU failed because they under valued the amount of capital needed to run a successful Championship football club. It would be interesting to know what proportion of revenue the clubs mentioned by lordsummerislehttp://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/members/1983-lordsummerisleabove spend on wages. CCFC could not go on spending in excess of 100% of revenue on wages - it is unsustainable. I agree the Bundesliga approach is the way to go but the Premier League and the FA think themselves above such things as simply economics.

I am just waiting for Sky to turn around and say no more boys - this year the product is only worth X where this is a much smaller amount than that currently being paid. Or the big 4/5 say "screw you we are going alone" Sky will pay much less for what is left! Football is doomed not just CCFC!

If that does happen..or is going to happen...then I am really baffled as to why anyone would want to take us over....

TheParsonsHose · Jan 3, 2012

LeamingtonBootBoy said:
I just want to know who is taking over the club...if there is a takeover....????

If so, and I have long had my suspicions of SISU (and RR when he was here...and well as Uncle Joe, but that's another story), let's make sure that it's not a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire, eh???

I know Hoffman is pally pally with the fans, I had a drink with hime at Doncaster and he is very charming and says all the right things...but let'e get a few things straight;

1) I've been going home and away for almost 30 years and I'd never seen him at away games before a few months ago...never seen in in the away end or in the pub
2) Hoffman is a businessman and may be seeing this as a business deal...hence my intial post asking for clarity
3) Is Hoffman putting his money into the deal, or is he (as we suspect) a front man? If so, who are these investors, what are their intentions, what is the role of indviduals such as Hoffman and Uncle Joe....not more free tickets in the swanky seats, and prawn sandwiches based on our loyalty....?????

Not wanting to piss on anyone's cornflakes, but let's make sure we get it right this time, eh?

Uncle Joe was in the away end at West Ham, didn't see the Hoff though.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 3, 2012

I have my doubts about Uncle Joe.

The man who urged shareholders to surrender there certificates....the man who as recently ago as March said that '...in SISU, we are in safe hands...'....the man who was around when Richardson started to dig this hole for us....

I would like to ask the Orange Man MKII some questions about what he knows as to what has happened in the last 15 years, and what he has done to aid the situation...he seems to be the one constant....up RR arse one day, and now up Hoffman's....I hope he isn't just around for the freebies.....????

skablue · Jan 3, 2012

LBB, I must take issue with your claim that you have been going home and away for almost 30 years, I don't recall you being at Highfield Rd until after the fa cup win in 87, I think you got the bug in the 87/88 season, you came with me to you first game. I clearly remember you coming on the pre-season tour to Torquay, Plymouth and Exeter at the start of the 88/89 season. As a supporter of less than 25 years I don't think you have right to voice an opinion, please don't be so impertinent in the future.

Please accept my apologies for introducing you to that fat barmaid in bournemouth.........................

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 3, 2012

Agreed, ska, let's call it 25 years!

However, the points I make relate to the need to get to the bottom of the intentions of the Hoff and his consortium.

As for Bournemouth...did you flog the telly, mate???!!!

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 3, 2012

Jesus, that's brought the memories flooding back!

That was a quality weekend...not as good as when we went down there and broke into the ground and played a game on the hallowed turf of Dean court!

skablue · Jan 3, 2012

Catch up soon I hope, working a lot at weekends and don't get to many games nowadays, have I missed much lately?

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 3, 2012

Some quality away days...give me a shout, we always do the train...good days out...early starts and late returns!!!

A few scrapes have been had...and we have a weekend planned for the Southampton game as the Big Man and I have a notable birthday to celebrate...the big 4 0 !!!

Nonleagueherewecome · Jan 3, 2012

skablue said:
Catch up soon I hope, working a lot at weekends and don't get to many games nowadays, have I missed much lately?

Probably the best two performances of the season, but other than that, nah.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 3, 2012

skablue is a top lad...one of the best laughs ever at football...a true head-the-ball CCFC lad...RESPECT!

But yes, ska, you have missed the highlights of the season!

Jack Griffin · Jan 3, 2012

crowsnest said:
I think OSB is referring to the new investors possibly charging interest.

Yes above in this thread he was but on this previous thread he said........ I guess I was being obscure there

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/13676-Richard-Keys-on-twitter-this-am/page2?highlight=explain

oldskyblue58 said:
3) Tim Fisher because as the head guy on the CCFC board he should know the current financial situation - need him to tell us the real figures. I also need him to explain how the debt from SISU was £24m in May 2010 and now 18 months later has jumped to more than £35m despite big cost savings

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · Jan 4, 2012

TheParsonsHose said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-league

Enlightening. Thanks.

torchomatic · Jan 4, 2012

Maybe he should change his name to LeamingtonBootGloryBoy then?

skablue said:
I don't recall you being at Highfield Rd until after the fa cup win in 87, I think you got the bug in the 87/88 season

LeamingtonBootBoy · Jan 4, 2012

Oh dear, Torchy...still sore over the fact that 'our saviours...and £20m investors' (quote from you in 2008...and 2009....and 2010...see CET forum) SISU are getting the grief that they deserve after years of your support???!!! LOL!!

As I am 40 next year, I'm sure that your maths will work out that I started going regularly home and away from the age of 15....ska will also confirm that despite work commitments moving me to Newcastle and Cardiff, I still followed the lads home and away....did every game in the 95/96 and 96/97 seasons home and away from Newcastle (including the postponed West Ham Boxing day game at Upton Park).

Yes, that's glory hunting for you.....a bit like you being SISU's-bitch!!!

Backing the protest on Saturday....didn't think so....or are you planning a pro-SISU one......

torchomatic · Jan 4, 2012

Oh dear, have a I touched a nerve there, LBB? I'm sure you've been going to see the City home and away for 300 years, you old trooper.

To be honest, I don't think you listed enough games that you have been too, please quote them all.

Yes, I think I might start a Pro-SISU rally on Saturday, seeing as though I'm their "bitch".

LeamingtonBootBoy said:
Oh dear, Torchy...still sore over the fact that 'our saviours...and £20m investors' (quote from you in 2008...and 2009....and 2010...see CET forum) SISU are getting the grief that they deserve after years of your support???!!! LOL!!

As I am 40 next year, I'm sure that your maths will work out that I started going regularly home and away from the age of 15....ska will also confirm that despite work commitments moving me to Newcastle and Cardiff, I still followed the lads home and away....did every game in the 95/96 and 96/97 seasons home and away from Newcastle (including the postponed West Ham Boxing day game at Upton Park).

Yes, that's glory hunting for you.....a bit like you being SISU's-bitch!!!

Backing the protest on Saturday....didn't think so....or are you planning a pro-SISU one......

Colonel Mustard · Jan 4, 2012

LeamingtonBootBoy said:
Oh dear, Torchy...still sore over the fact that 'our saviours...and £20m investors'

How much do you think SISU has footed to support/taken out of the club?

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