What the fuck has happened to England (1 Viewer)

Liquid Gold said:

Its weird that Southgate gets battered for fucking things up in major games but fuck all credit for getting us to major games. Doing things that no other manager in our history has managed.

Also don't get the 'failed at Boro' line. So fucking what? International football isn't club football, Löw had to join the Germany set u because he was getting a side relegated from the Turkish league and then he goes and wins a World Cup.

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Evo1883 said:

It's also weird England fans give Southgate so much credit for failing whilst international football was on its arse and it would have been harder NOT to get to the final ..

Won't have the same luxury again now a few teams have started to come out of transition .


Long story short

I would have backed even you to manage us to that final or that semi in 2018

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Liquid Gold said:

We got to a World Cup semi with Delle Alli and Jesse Lingered as key players and everybody saying it's piece of piss.

Too much FIFA and Football Manager all round.

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Liquid Gold said:

Its weird that Southgate gets battered for fucking things up in major games but fuck all credit for getting us to major games. Doing things that no other manager in our history has managed.

Also don't get the 'failed at Boro' line. So fucking what? International football isn't club football, Löw had to join the Germany set u because he was getting a side relegated from the Turkish league and then he goes and wins a World Cup.

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Otis said:

Came across quite well I thought.

Bottom line is, getting rid of Southgate now is not a good move. It should have happened earlier if it was to have happened.

Isn't it now just three games to go before the World Cup? Pointless to bring anyone else in.

Southgate does need a long hard look at himself though.

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Evo1883 said:

Yea CJ spoke sense tbh

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Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

Probably handing over a list of names of all the fans who he thinks misbehaved to the media.

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Evo1883 said:

I mean let's not make out alli wasn't a good player , before he went to pot a couple years ago he was one of the best young players in the Premier league .

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Evo1883 said:

It's also weird England fans give Southgate so much credit for failing whilst international football was on its arse and it would have been harder NOT to get to the final ..

Won't have the same luxury again now a few teams have started to come out of transition .


Long story short

I would have backed even you to manage us to that final or that semi in 2018

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Evo1883 said:

Dele alli the season of 2017/ 2018

Yea proper shit going into the world cup View attachment 25005

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Mucca Mad Boys said:

Our team in 2018 was not worthy of a finalist spot. We had Young, Alli and Lingard as starting players.

Croatia’s midfield was leagues better than ours. Rakitic and Modric were playing at the height of their careers. That’s where the game was won and lost and no reasonable person would say England’s midfield was better than Croatia’s at that time.




Alli had a good season that year, but he wasn’t on the same plane as Rakitic or Modric. The latter winning the ballon d’or.

England fans as a whole were crying out for a manager to get us to the latter stages of a tournament. We get one and then turn on him because he doesn’t set us up like the Brazil 2002 side. No point about making caveats about ‘easy run ins’ because we blown an easy group and run in back in 2010. Southgate’s teams have mostly got the job done.

Maybe Southgate isn’t the man to take us all the way. But he is the man that changed the culture and made us a team to go deep into tournaments. He deserves some respect on his name.

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Evo1883 said:

I could keep arguing on this but what's the point .. it's blinkered talk .

Croatia were good in midfield sure but there are around 5 players that don't make the England team .. England as a team were probably better , alli had been good for 3 seasons before 2018 so again it's nonsense talk to suggest he was a hindering us .

He got it wrong v Holland in 2019 and v Italy in the final of 2020 .

These are facts that can't be denied

If you think England were shit in 2018 then you absolutely have to think they are today too , as nearly all the players still make the squad with around 7 or 8 still having regular starting spots


Also , please stop talking about the 2010 side ffs .. it was a good German side that beat us , and we had a horror decision go against us at crucial point in the match ..

Btw , that German side only lost to the eventual winners Spain 1-0 , one of the best international sides ever at that point

That easy run in in 2010

Germany , Argentina ,Spain, Holland


Talking nonsense mucca

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Mucca Mad Boys said:

In 2010, we wouldn’t have had to play Germany had we topped a Group consisting of Algeria, USA and Slovenia.

From there, we would’ve had to play Ghana, Uruguay and the Netherlands to get to a final. Rather than Germany, Argentina and Spain…

You (and others) can’t belittle Southgate and say ‘we lost to a good Germany team in 2010’ - the point is we botched the easiest World Cup group we’ve had in my lifetime.

My point is that right now, we’re not as good as we think we are. I still think we can win the World Cup, but England fans saying we’re blowing our best chance - not really. Our defence is not world class as it was in 2002-2010.

In 2018, our team was younger and have obviously developed into better players from then. Harry Maguire, Stones, Pickford are key examples. When you compare the squads of 2018/2021, there’s huge turnover because our depth wasn’t there in 2018. Which is why I empathise with Southgate that changing the game wasn’t as easy as the armchair managers think.

I never said Alli hindered us, but his numbers in 2018 were already declining from 2016-17. With what we know now, he was a player on the decline. Which is sad because I rated him highly and still want him to resurrect his career.

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Evo1883 said:

One of those eye roll moments isn't it ..


That uruguay team were rank 7 in the world in 2010 and 4 in the world in 2011 after winning the copa America , Holland rank 3

I'm sure you were barely a teenager in 2010 you've said before

A Rob Green mistake cost us the " easy route " that's all really

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Mucca Mad Boys said:

… We failed to beat to Algeria and the USA and scored 2 goals in our group. It was a shambles. I find it very interesting how you’re willing to let such an abject failure slide.

Uruguay were ranked 6th after their World Cup run (leap frogging England). Before the World Cup (May 2010) they were ranked 18th, below the USA, Mexico, France, Greece and Serbia. Had we drew Uruguay, we would have been the favourites and expected to win that tie.

The Netherlands was not an easy tie at all. They would’ve been favourites. But a semi-final appearance against the Netherlands would’ve been our best major tournament since 1996. Certainly less embarrassing than being dumped out of the Round of 16 4-1 by Germany.

Whereas, people on this thread have been happy to denigrate Southgate’s achievements due to ‘easy runs’. Much is made of the ‘easy’ run in 2018, Colombia were still considered ‘dark horses’ and Sweden topped Germany’s group and minus a stoppage time winner, would’ve beaten Germany and advanced with 9 points from the Group. Needless to say, our historical record against Sweden was pretty dodgy.

Like you, I’m disappointed we didn’t get to the final in 2018 and that we didn’t win it in 2021. Southgate is not blameless and he’s admitted as such. Before Southgate, we never played in these games so it’s undeniable that Southgate was progressed the national team. His achievements shouldn’t have a ‘but’ next to them.

IMO, Qatar will probably be Southgate’s last tournament. If we win the tournament, he’ll walk out on a high and if we don’t, he’ll say he can’t take the team further and that’s fine.

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Evo1883 said:

I'm glad it's his last , and he's achieved nothing ..he's probably cost us a trophy .

Comparing him to 2010 , where we had a harder run in Irrespective of what side of the draw we were on , doesn't alter that.

Capello funnily enough has a better win ratio than Southgate.. both failed

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Nick said:

The fact he's praised for making silly decisions and costing us a final against Italy is very weird.

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Mucca Mad Boys said:

Southgate has the highest win % in major tournaments of any previous England manager with one exception. Sir Alf Ramsey. Capello’s win ratio in major tournaments? 25%. Even Roy Hodgson had a solid win record in qualifications and friendlies.

He hasn’t though, has he? We lost on penalties. The Italians make a habit of winning major tournament final.

May 2010 was objectively a easier run. We were ranked 8th in the world. Our group opponents USA, Slovenia and Algeria were ranked; 14th, 25th and 30th in the world. Ghana ranked 32nd, Uruguay ranked 16th.

May 2018, we were ranked 13th. Group; 3rd (Belgium), Tunisia (14th), Panama (55th). Colombia ranked 16th, Sweden 23rd and Croatia 18th.

We were a worse team in 2018 than 2010, and generally faced better opponents in comparison to our world ranking. By your own standards, it the only way to succeed is winning a trophy, had we beaten Croatia you’d consider it failure to lose to a much superior French team in the final.

It’s no wonder Sir Alex Ferguson called the England job ‘a poisoned chalice’ when the fans will only accept winning a trophy as a baseline for success.

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Mucca Mad Boys said:

You’d have said the same thing had he left the likes of Sancho and Rashford on the bench and we lost on penalties.

Then again, we see the same people on here go into meltdown on a weekly basis. Armchair managers who don’t know as much as they think with inflated expectations.

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Mucca Mad Boys said:

You’d have said the same thing had he left the likes of Sancho and Rashford on the bench and we lost on penalties.

Then again, we see the same people on here go into meltdown on a weekly basis. Armchair managers who don’t know as much as they think with inflated expectations.

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Nick said:

Would I?

Who brings players on like that just to take pens in a major final?

It's not really an inflated expectation to win that from being 1-0 up.

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Mucca Mad Boys said:

We lost on penalties. It’s no different how Spain equalised against Italy and forced penalties. Donnaruma is also a fantastic penalty saver, saving 40% of penalties he’s faced. For context, Pickford is a good penalty stopper who’s on about 20-25%.

There’s things I’d have done differently. But, I’m not a paid professional and we also don’t know how those changes would’ve played out.

We could have been more attacking and ended up losing the game in 90/120 minutes OR, maybe we could’ve won it. We don’t know.

Al Murray once had a skit where ‘every’ England fan knows how to win a World Cup after 2-3 beers. It’s still true to this day.

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Mucca Mad Boys said:

We lost on penalties. It’s no different how Spain equalised against Italy and forced penalties. Donnaruma is also a fantastic penalty saver, saving 40% of penalties he’s faced. For context, Pickford is a good penalty stopper who’s on about 20-25%.

There’s things I’d have done differently. But, I’m not a paid professional and we also don’t know how those changes would’ve played out.

We could have been more attacking and ended up losing the game in 90/120 minutes OR, maybe we could’ve won it. We don’t know.

Al Murray once had a skit where ‘every’ England fan knows how to win a World Cup after 2-3 beers. It’s still true to this day.

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procdoc said:

It should never have gone to penalties. We had them on toast then Southgate decided to sit back. Piss poor tactics. They failed to qualify for this World Cup and lost to north Macedonia, we totally blew it in that final

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CCFCSteve said:

Would I have done something different, yes, would Southgate retrospectively, I guess so, however, when people judge managers they sometimes ignore what the opposition/opposition manager is doing and what our players were doing. Italy didnt just sit back and let us do what we want, they changed the tactics, players and formation. Should Southgate have done more to counter that, with hindsight yes, but none of us know the likely result of that. He could easily have gone gung-ho and with our iffy defenders we could lost before penalties

This is the same Italy that had a 37 game unbeaten run at the time (recent performances/results are irrelevant) so we can safely assume that other teams might have thought the could/should’ve beaten them but Italy would always find a way not to lose

I’m saying this as someone who wants Southgate to be a bit less defensive minded but there’s various elements at play, not just our own managers tactics.

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Deleted member 5849 said:

I often wonder how previous tournament defeats on penalties or dodgy goals (Seaman v Brazil) are seen as unlucky, but Southgate's are seen as lucky to be there at all, and he cost us the win. Why can't he be unlucky too, if we're applying the same standards?

Take Italia 90, we were lucky to be in the semi-finals at all. Poor in the groups, scraped through a bit fortunately against Belgium, struggled to beat a Cameroon side who weren't all that really and were a tremendous draw for us really.

if we're holding Southgate standards elsewhere, Italia 90 was a terrible failure as we really weren't very good apart from in two games - one of which happened to be the semi-final.

Of course to say that would be a nonsense, wouldn't it!

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Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

I honestly need to watch that Italy game again, as I was so fucking drunk in some bar in Mallorca and only really remember the key points. That being said, I do recall having a feeling like they were there for the taking early on and being in a bit of shock when we lost. I guess it being a final there were nerves and everything. Still, there was a bit of deja-vu with that and the Croatia game so it was really frustrating to be ahead in both games and then go on to lose.

We have the players, but he is becoming increasingly frustrating with his tactics and decisions. I still don't understand how Maddison isn't worthy of an inclusion, but I suspect it might be an attitude thing there. Our defence isn't good, but our attacking players are the strength, so surely we should be playing to that? I don't know. I'll let it go for now and be all 'God save the Queen' come November, but I just hope we don't get into a good position and fuck it up again. Hopefully this round of games has actually been a bit of a wake up call and can be used positively.

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Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

I honestly need to watch that Italy game again, as I was so fucking drunk in some bar in Mallorca and only really remember the key points. That being said, I do recall having a feeling like they were there for the taking early on and being in a bit of shock when we lost. I guess it being a final there were nerves and everything. Still, there was a bit of deja-vu with that and the Croatia game so it was really frustrating to be ahead in both games and then go on to lose.

We have the players, but he is becoming increasingly frustrating with his tactics and decisions. I still don't understand how Maddison isn't worthy of an inclusion, but I suspect it might be an attitude thing there. Our defence isn't good, but our attacking players are the strength, so surely we should be playing to that? I don't know. I'll let it go for now and be all 'God save the Queen' come November, but I just hope we don't get into a good position and fuck it up again. Hopefully this round of games has actually been a bit of a wake up call and can be used positively.

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CCFCSteve said:

Exactly. Peoples views also soften and change. From memory Robson was getting vilified by many fans before (and at the start of) Italia 90 and now he will rightly go down as one of our best managers.

We’ll all be looking back fondly at this time when Big Sam returns and we miss out on qualifying for the next World Cup

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