What income do CCFC have after Saturday? (1 Viewer)

oakey · Apr 15, 2013

No ticket sales,
No season ticket revenues
No new kit launch
No club shop, except an online sale of old stuff
?
Prize money for coming 60th in football pyramid? Then zilch.

Is this a sign our beloved owners are going? After all they have to pay players and other costs with virtually zero income.
What is their plan? Can they sell any players? Administrator?
Your thoughts.

Sub · Apr 15, 2013

we are well and truly up shit creak without a paddle !!!

oldskyblue58 · Apr 15, 2013

surely SISU are going to back it and will pay for everything

will only need to find £500k+ pm to keep it going :thinking about:

Ctidmark · Apr 15, 2013

Woudnt have thought we can sell with the transfer embargo still with them.
What I can not get is when you go into admin, I thought that was it as owners? Why are they still running the club?

Bluegloucester · Apr 15, 2013

Car boot sales, an absolute winner!

oldskyblue58 · Apr 15, 2013

whats the rollover figure on the Euromillions this week ?

oakey · Apr 15, 2013

Could the club sell Merchandise from mobile units inside or outside the Ricoh on Saturday? Impulse buys are better than online out of season.
Can't see them selling much online

Paxman II · Apr 15, 2013

But wait....we are in admin? Oh but wait....we still field a team paid for by CCFC (Holdings) LTD? How can that be?
The FL have taken 10 points away yet they know 'Holdings' is still funding the club and paying the players? How can this be?

The whole thing is a farce.

Sbarcher · Apr 15, 2013

When is the Lg 1 TV money paid - start of season or in monthly/quarterly chunks? Looks to me that this could be the only revenue stream for a while.

oldskyblue58 · Apr 15, 2013

Paxman II said:
But wait....we are in admin? Oh but wait....we still field a team paid for by CCFC (Holdings) LTD? How can that be?
The FL have taken 10 points away yet they know 'Holdings' is still funding the club and paying the players? How can this be?

The whole thing is a farce.

it isnt a very funny farce though................... and one that is practically impossible to fathom out

I keep telling myself that SISU must have a plan to all this ............ but for the life of me I do not see what it is....... none of it make much sense

Ashdown1 · Apr 15, 2013

Paxman II said:
But wait....we are in admin? Oh but wait....we still field a team paid for by CCFC (Holdings) LTD? How can that be?
The FL have taken 10 points away yet they know 'Holdings' is still funding the club and paying the players? How can this be?

The whole thing is a farce.

Indeed, surely there are some behind the scenes talks going on at some level? Or maybe nothing will happen until any further decisions have been made by the courts and administrator. Only 3 weeks now for this? Accounts are still to be filed, is this not a requirement of the enquiry considering the level of debt declared. If this bullshit drags on beyond Mid July we will quite rightly lose 30% of the fanbase and its accompanying revenue.
What has happened to Fisher/SISU anyway? As usual not a word from the devious cretins !

sky_blue_up_north · Apr 15, 2013

Club 'shop' is sort of open near the JSB end of the stadium, got a couple of shirts from there last week... cash only

ccfcway · Apr 15, 2013

wont we still have the food and beverage sales

ccfcway · Apr 15, 2013

text a sub should bring in a decent income during the summer

coundonskyblue · Apr 15, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
it isnt a very funny farce though................... and one that is practically impossible to fathom out

I keep telling myself that SISU must have a plan to all this ............ but for the life of me I do not see what it is....... none of it make much sense

Sisu's plan is to just muddy the water to the point that no one has a clue what is going on.

Tim Fisher is currently hiding under a pile of coats hoping that somehow everything will turn out ok.

coundonskyblue · Apr 15, 2013

Ctidmark said:
Woudnt have thought we can sell with the transfer embargo still with them.
What I can not get is when you go into admin, I thought that was it as owners? Why are they still running the club?

Is the transfer embargo on CCFC Ltd or CCFC Holdings though?

RPHunt · Apr 15, 2013

Sbarcher said:
When is the Lg 1 TV money paid - start of season or in monthly/quarterly chunks? Looks to me that this could be the only revenue stream for a while.

I can't be bothered to look at the rules, but I think this pittance will not be paid if the club is in administration.

Godiva · Apr 15, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
I keep telling myself that SISU must have a plan to all this ............ but for the life of me I do not see what it is....... none of it make much sense

If they were caught with the golden share and player registrations not transferred out of Ltd then I think their plan must be a fast exit with a reasonable payout of the £8m ARVO loan by a new owner.
They will need to cover most costs in the mean time, especially all wages. But of course they will also actively sell off any player that can command a fee or lower the wage bill.
In this scenario a new owner - especially if lead by old enemies Elliott/Hoffman - may drag out as both party will have a score to settle and will look for every opportunity to portrait the opposition as villains and crooks (mind you, we are already pretty used to this child play).

But we still don't know for sure if the golden share and the player registrations are with Ltd or with Holdings. Until the administrator and the court tells us where the assets are we can only speculate.
If they are with Holdings then it will be up to the football league to decide if the club is actually both Holdings and Limited. If that is the case, the club will come out of administration in the Summer after some negotiation with the league that will see Holding as the club. Ltd will stay in administration and finally dissolved.
If the league decides that Holding is the club then administration is lifted immediately. We probably won't get the 10 points as we didn't exercise the appeal.
In any case, if the golden share and player registrations are with Holdings then the club will come out of administration with sisu as owners. Ltd will be dissolved and ACL left without any chance of clawing back the rent arrears.

But I may well be wrong - sisu may be looking for a quick exit or be determined to stay whatever the league or court says.

TheParsonsHose · Apr 15, 2013

I need a new top for my holidays so they best hurry!

Paxman II · Apr 15, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
it isnt a very funny farce though................... and one that is practically impossible to fathom out

I keep telling myself that SISU must have a plan to all this ............ but for the life of me I do not see what it is....... none of it make much sense

Yes absolutely right OSB.

I think I would be right in saying we and a few other posters prepared to put sentiment aside have looked at this from many business angles according to the facts as we know them and on some occasions I have maybe seen the logic in their manoeuvring. However of late, I too am finding this increasingly difficult to fathom.

MichaelCCFC · Apr 15, 2013

Paxman II said:
Yes absolutely right OSB.

I think I would be right in saying we and a few other posters prepared to put sentiment aside have looked at this from many business angles according to the facts as we know them and on some occasions I have maybe seen the logic in their manoeuvring. However of late, I too am finding this increasingly difficult to fathom.

Really interesting thread this. There are people on this forum who have financial and legal expertise so, as Paxman says, putting sentiment aside here's a hypothetical question: in your professional role if you were approached by a hedge fund which said it is making a loss on a football club it bought; the hedge fund's primary/sole(?) aim is to get some money out of this for its investors within a very difficult situation; you see a Times newspaper report of a previous court case involving said hege fund which suggests they will be vigorous in pursuing what they consider their investors are entitled to. Hedge fund has put one of 2 companies relating to the football club into administration. What advice would you offer they hedge fund if they asked for your professional opinion?

Nonleagueherewecome · Apr 15, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
it isnt a very funny farce though................... and one that is practically impossible to fathom out

I keep telling myself that SISU must have a plan to all this ............ but for the life of me I do not see what it is....... none of it make much sense

Isn't that a Barbara Streisand movie?

Tonylinc · Apr 15, 2013

From a Sisu perspective I have to say that they seem to have played their last card. They will not put out a, "for sale", sign as that would indicate their desperation. They are fully aware that there are other interested parties and are hoping that the offers which they make will at least recoup some of their "outlays".

Tonylinc · Apr 15, 2013

MichaelCCFC said:
Really interesting thread this. There are people on this forum who have financial and legal expertise so, as Paxman says, putting sentiment aside here's a hypothetical question: in your professional role if you were approached by a hedge fund which said it is making a loss on a football club it bought; the hedge fund's primary/sole(?) aim is to get some money out of this for its investors within a very difficult situation; you see a Times newspaper report of a previous court case involving said hege fund which suggests they will be vigorous in pursuing what they consider their investors are entitled to. Hedge fund has put one of 2 companies relating to the football club into administration. What advice would you offer they hedge fund if they asked for your professional opinion?

Sorry, I can only approach this subject as a Coventry City fan even though I am a lawyer; and as a Coventry City fan I say SELL;SELL;SELL.!!!!!

Jack Griffin · Apr 15, 2013

I'm pretty sure a good part of SISU's plans got scuppered by the move to put CCFC Ltd into administration.

I've a horrible feeling this summer there will be a sale of any player who can command a fee. :thinking about:

Anyway, rolll on that May court hearing, please get this season over & see if we can find a way forward...

BrisbaneBronco · Apr 16, 2013

Godiva said:
If they were caught with the golden share and player registrations not transferred out of Ltd then I think their plan must be a fast exit with a reasonable payout of the £8m ARVO loan by a new owner.
They will need to cover most costs in the mean time, especially all wages. But of course they will also actively sell off any player that can command a fee or lower the wage bill.
In this scenario a new owner - especially if lead by old enemies Elliott/Hoffman - may drag out as both party will have a score to settle and will look for every opportunity to portrait the opposition as villains and crooks (mind you, we are already pretty used to this child play).

But we still don't know for sure if the golden share and the player registrations are with Ltd or with Holdings. Until the administrator and the court tells us where the assets are we can only speculate.
If they are with Holdings then it will be up to the football league to decide if the club is actually both Holdings and Limited. If that is the case, the club will come out of administration in the Summer after some negotiation with the league that will see Holding as the club. Ltd will stay in administration and finally dissolved.
If the league decides that Holding is the club then administration is lifted immediately. We probably won't get the 10 points as we didn't exercise the appeal.
In any case, if the golden share and player registrations are with Holdings then the club will come out of administration with sisu as owners. Ltd will be dissolved and ACL left without any chance of clawing back the rent arrears.

But I may well be wrong - sisu may be looking for a quick exit or be determined to stay whatever the league or court says.

And if we come out of administration with SISU as owners there is absolutely no chance of playing at the Ricoh next season after ACL were shafted on rent.

sky blue john · Apr 16, 2013

There will be no income due to next seasons ticket sales have already been borrowed against !!!

TheParsonsHose · Apr 16, 2013

This could be the first year I have not been able to buy a CCFC home shirt for my holiday. It's almost like this sort of revenue stream has all but stopped and not continued to be the parallel activity it should be.

oldskyblue58 · Apr 16, 2013

Godiva said:
If they were caught with the golden share and player registrations not transferred out of Ltd then I think their plan must be a fast exit with a reasonable payout of the £8m ARVO loan by a new owner. i would have thought a purchaser would only have to buy at a distressed value in those circumstances...... unless of course SISU are going to pump a lot more money in and reorganise the structure again. ARVO have a charge over the assets...... which have no great value ...... but could that charge be challenged does it represent money to CCFC at all?
They will need to cover most costs in the mean time, especially all wages. But of course they will also actively sell off any player that can command a fee or lower the wage bill.not much value in the squad transfer wise and getting rid of players in contract means selling or paying up their contracts neither will be easy with the squad we have and may well take some time to have an effect (few transfer deals are paid in full up front for instance)
In this scenario a new owner - especially if lead by old enemies Elliott/Hoffman - may drag out as both party will have a score to settle and will look for every opportunity to portrait the opposition as villains and crooks (mind you, we are already pretty used to this child play). not in a new buyers interest to drag it out - financially exccept to say july when income streams start to kick back in. Elliott/Hoffman already been quoted as saying would like a deal sooner rather than later

But we still don't know for sure if the golden share and the player registrations are with Ltd or with Holdings. Until the administrator and the court tells us where the assets are we can only speculate. awful lot of evidence points to CCFC Ltd holding the share though and FL have acted on that basis
If they are with Holdings then it will be up to the football league to decide if the club is actually both Holdings and Limited. If that is the case, the club will come out of administration in the Summer after some negotiation with the league that will see Holding as the club. Ltd will stay in administration and finally dissolved. by deducting 10 points hasnt the FL already decided ? If Holdings is held as the club then there will be legal challenges by ACL for starters so will not be a quick solution, not to mention the FL setting a legal precedent that could lead to other legal challenges. Even if the administrator advises the court 18/05/13 that his opinion is that CCFCH is the club you can expect legal challenges to that
If the league decides that Holding is the club then administration is lifted immediately. We probably won't get the 10 points as we didn't exercise the appeal. you really think that will happen unchallenged? We have had the 10 points as far as i am aware there is no mechanism now to appeal or get the points removed
In any case, if the golden share and player registrations are with Holdings then the club will come out of administration with sisu as owners. Ltd will be dissolved and ACL left without any chance of clawing back the rent arrears. again do you really think that ACL will say "oh thats ok then" and walk away? Where does that leave the club because they have no deal to play at the Ricoh in those circumstances so no income streams, therefore no business plan they can put forward to the FL to show CCFC is a viable and sustainable entity. The FL may well have to do their own investigations that could lead to further penalties. Think there might be a few tough questions as to how accounts and audit reports could be signed off 20/06/12 based partly on budgets to at least 20/06/13 and then we are told that the real situation is that everything has been in CCFC H for some time by March 2013. Other questions like why the lease for Ricoh has always been shown in CCFCH accounts, why the playing side always in CCFC Ltd, original memorandum & articles for CCFC Ltd saying it acquired the playing side off Holdings so how did it not have the golden share ...... and other such things

But I may well be wrong - sisu may be looking for a quick exit or be determined to stay whatever the league or court says well that covers it then .

not as simple as you suggest Godiva

ricohman · Apr 16, 2013

I bought 2 kits last week so online store still up and running

Godiva · Apr 16, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
not as simple as you try to make out Godiva

Actually I wasn't trying to pretend it is simple ... you asked what sisu plan could be, and I posted my take on it.
I have never said there won't be more to come after administration. I am sure there will be plenty of days in court.

But look at the situation from sisu's point of view and put aside all sentiments (leave out what could have been done differently and why different approaches would have been better).
What created the situation?
I think: Lack of money ... need to cut costs ... no quick settlement with ACL over the rent.
Why did the club put itself in administration?
I think: To cut out ACL from direct and close access to the administrator and the information he collects.
What outcome will be in the best interest of sisu?
I think: To retain full ownership of the club and let ltd vanish with the rent debt.
I also think sisu will be in a stronger position to negotiate a takeover when the club is out of administration.
Will a takeover benefit sisu?
I think: It won't benefit the funds - the actual investors, but maybe there is money it a takeover for sisu themselves. I think it depends on the ARVO construction.
If a takeover is not benefitting sisu, then what would?
I think: Staying as owners and either cut all connections with ACL/Higgs, relocate temporary and build a new stadium (Joy Arena?) - or get what they wanted, ACL merged into the club at a price they (sisu) can accept.

I can't see it much differently ... but maybe if I had access to up-to-date accounts I could get other ideas.

sky blue john · Apr 16, 2013

hypothetically if Sisu's plan is to come through this still owning the club. I presume they would have to file last years accounts first before the administrator could even consider an offer from them ?

oldskyblue58 · Apr 16, 2013

Godiva said:
Actually I wasn't trying to pretend it is simple ... you asked what sisu plan could be, and I posted my take on it. was discussing that take Godiva thats all:thinking about:
I have never said there won't be more to come after administration. I am sure there will be plenty of days in court. Agreed

But look at the situation from sisu's point of view and put aside all sentiments (leave out what could have been done differently and why different approaches would have been better).
What created the situation? You can not polarise how you look at things though............. I am sure they want all sorts but ...... what is achievable ?
I think: Lack of money ... need to cut costs ... no quick settlement with ACL over the rent. add to that no real initial plan other than get in Premiership then sell. no proper control, no detailed knowledge, poor decision making, lack of working relationship, abrasive style, no connection to customers etc etc ................ self analysis can be a bitch but is a useful tool
Why did the club put itself in administration?
I think: To cut out ACL from direct and close access to the administrator and the information he collects. Am sure that was the reason and based on a seemingly flawed premise of control of the share. Doesnt mean creditors/others can not present information to the administrator that he must as an officer of the court investigate
What outcome will be in the best interest of sisu?
I think: To retain full ownership of the club and let ltd vanish with the rent debt. sure it would be but is it achievable, sustainable or viable ?
I also think sisu will be in a stronger position to negotiate a takeover when the club is out of administration. Why ............ ACL do not have to negotiate anything with them and the alternative to not being at the Ricoh is years of funding more losses
Will a takeover benefit sisu? wouldnt do it it if it didnt surely ?
I think: It won't benefit the funds - the actual investors, but maybe there is money it a takeover for sisu themselves. I think it depends on the ARVO construction. How do SISU prove that CCFC is sustainable to the FL? SISU could own the club directly but they will have had to do a deal with their investors to do it and would Joy take on those losses personally when she does not have to?
If a takeover is not benefitting sisu, then what would?
I think: Staying as owners and either cut all connections with ACL/Higgs, relocate temporary and build a new stadium (Joy Arena?) - or get what they wanted, ACL merged into the club at a price they (sisu) can accept. does moving elsewhere actually work...... for instance have been to Walsall and can tell you now that is not going to be a good option....... 3 years to plan, build, equip another stadium during which more losses less income rights, etc. ACL are never going to agree a deal with SISU to take ACL over, and certainly not at a price SISU could accept

I can't see it much differently ... but maybe if I had access to up-to-date accounts I could get other ideas. sure we all could ...... including when the trade was switched from CCFC Ltd to CCFC H in what could be seen as a scheme to prejudice the rights of creditors

Just do not think you can look at it from one angle Godiva to answer what the SISU plan is............ they have to plan to obtain what is achievable not what is best for them ............ do you really think that takeover of the whole site by SISU is attainable? ..... i dont

What income do CCFC have after Saturday? (1 Viewer)

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