What do you think is the end game ? (1 Viewer)

oldskyblue58 · Aug 8, 2016

Nick said:
What would explain 2012 being so high, then 2015 going back up?

I guess it will go back up again won't it with Venus on there?

2012

The figure in 2015 would include Waggott being reclassified as a director from Sept 2014

Going from other information, then currently Directors and Academy would cost £300k (TF & CA) and £500k respectively plus physios (from planning letter). Add to that Venus now being a director, TM's salary and associated first team coaches/staff and other staff employed (commercial) plus the cost of stewards and you would have to guess that the club probably pays out more than £1.2m in non player wages/salaries (that's probably a bit conservative as an estimate). 2015 the total wage bill was 5.2m

Godiva · Aug 8, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
Personally I don't see why any director be it CCFC or ACL shouldn't be paid for the work they do, if they require payment, so long as it is commensurate with what they do

I think there are a few people who believe the directors are SISU and that director remunerations is payment to SISU.

I don't claim to know how SISU make money from the club, but if they are still acting as a hedge fund and investing others peoples money, then they are paid a percentage of the total asset they control. Not paid by the club, but paid by the investors. In this case it will be counter productive for SISU to 'asset strip' or take out money as this will lower the asset value and thereby lower the payment SISU claim from the investors. Instead they are smart and charge a relatively high interest rate on the loans which they add to the loan balance thereby increasing the loan value and - again increase the fee they charge the investors.
Going forward it will suit SISU to have a club that is more or less self sufficient and to continue charging investors a percentage of the balance sheet.

oldskyblue58 · Aug 8, 2016

Godiva said:
I think there are a few people who believe the directors are SISU and that director remunerations is payment to SISU.

I don't claim to know how SISU make money from the club, but if they are still acting as a hedge fund and investing others peoples money, then they are paid a percentage of the total asset they control. Not paid by the club, but paid by the investors. In this case it will be counter productive for SISU to 'asset strip' or take out money as this will lower the asset value and thereby lower the payment SISU claim from the investors. Instead they are smart and charge a relatively high interest rate on the loans which they add to the loan balance thereby increasing the loan value and - again increase the fee they charge the investors.
Going forward it will suit SISU to have a club that is more or less self sufficient and to continue charging investors a percentage of the balance sheet.

I think that's a fair summary Godiva

The directors are CCFC employees not SISU employees and are entitled to earn a living. I can not conceive that they would pay part of their PAYE taxed earnings to SISU so that SISU got the financial benefit - simply would not make sense. None of the CCFC directors are directors/owners/ employees of SISU as far as I can see

oucho · Aug 8, 2016

italiahorse said:
Win the JR (eventually) and leave with all the money.

I think they're appealing more in hope than expectation now. Winning would be a bonus but whether they ultimately win or lose, I expect them to stay anyway and continue with the core strategy of sitting tight and hope to take advantage of Wasps' failings in order to grab the Ricoh in the future.

ecky · Aug 8, 2016

Bruce the Boot said:
A lot of people have said over the years what are Sisu trying to achieve ? Nobody definitely knows. My opinion , is they are happy to keep taking board room level salaries out of the club , and use the club books for other reasons beyond a normal person to understand other than an accountant. I think the end is near , soon no academy ? and very soon nowhere for home fixtures . To me it looks like administration and Sisu walk away .

ecky · Aug 8, 2016

No academy no Sisu in my opinion
They are keeping the patient CCFC barely alive whilst hoping to uncover 1 or 2 players each year from the academy which they then sell cheaply and below market value

I don't see any future for the club whilst under the present owners

Nick · Aug 8, 2016

ecky said:
No academy no Sisu in my opinion
They are keeping the patient CCFC barely alive whilst hoping to uncover 1 or 2 players each year from the academy which they then sell cheaply and below market value

I don't see any future for the club whilst under the present owners

How often have we heard the "if this happens sisu will go"...? Relegation, Administration...

Longford · Aug 8, 2016

Nick said:
How often have we heard the "if this happens sisu will go"...? Relegation, Administration...

Its all we have .....

4waspsting · Aug 8, 2016

I do not think its worth Talking about the shit state they have put the club in. They have no chance of recouping their outlay and i for one am pleased as Fuck .

italiahorse · Aug 8, 2016

I for one still believe they are creaming off enough to keep their investors happy.
I'm not an accountant but do appreciate the dark art of being one.
Sisu have history of how devious they are.
As seen by the 'slight of hand' of moving all the players and golden share into the 'other' part of the business that was not in administration.

Covstu · Aug 8, 2016

I still think they are here for a further few years, I think they tried to invest last year and that failed and this 'may' reflect on the lack of quality coming in this year (and the key exits). I think we all know the conclusion of the Academy but its more about the status which will be key for SISU, if we can retain the value coming in then this will help them, if they cannot its another major revenue stream walking out of the door. For me the legal battles will dictate where they stand, if they get blown out of court (again) then I think they may review our situation.

My biggest concern is that there was significant lack of interest the last time they took over the club, now we are in a considerably worse position so why do we think someone would take a look at us without some concrete deals around academy, training facilities and a place to play every other week?

Nick · Aug 8, 2016

italiahorse said:
I for one still believe they are creaming off enough to keep their investors happy.
I'm not an accountant but do appreciate the dark art of being one.
Sisu have history of how devious they are.
As seen by the 'slight of hand' of moving all the players and golden share into the 'other' part of the business that was not in administration.

Creaming what off from where though? We are making losses! I can understand if we made 20m profit a year and kept the same budget but what is being creamed off?

SkyBlueZack · Aug 8, 2016

Italia stirring the pot with his made up shit again. Surprise surprise.

italiahorse · Aug 8, 2016

Nick said:
Creaming what off from where though? We are making losses! I can understand if we made 20m profit a year and kept the same budget but what is being creamed off?

You do know that if you are making losses there are ways of still taking money out the business ?

Nick · Aug 8, 2016

italiahorse said:
You do know that if you are making losses there are ways of still taking money out the business ?

OK, so how are they taking money out?

italiahorse · Aug 8, 2016

SkyBlueZack said:
Italia stirring the pot with his made up shit again. Surprise surprise.

Yes, unfortunately it's not what Sisu wants to hear.
Simple fact is, you don't keep a 'loss making' business going without a reason.

Nick · Aug 8, 2016

italiahorse said:
Yes, unfortunately it's not what Sisu wants to hear.
Simple fact is, you don't keep a 'loss making' business going without a reason.

What isn't what SISU wants to hear?

italiahorse · Aug 8, 2016

Nick said:
OK, so how are they taking money out?

As I said I'm not an accountant, but .........
I do know that if you are making a loss in one income stream you can offset it against the profits of another income stream.
The rest is just suspicion and based on known Sisu accounting manipulation.

skyblueinBaku · Aug 8, 2016

Nick said:
OK, so how are they taking money out?

You don't really expect him to answer that, do you?

italiahorse · Aug 8, 2016

Nick said:
What isn't what SISU wants to hear?

It keeps hitting a few nerves. You can see it on here.

Nick · Aug 8, 2016

italiahorse said:
It keeps hitting a few nerves. You can see it on here.

Yes, because you are making it up.

The same as Juggy does.

Whereas if you educate people, they will also think that. Rather than just saying things and not actually knowing.

Shouting made up shit would actually just distract from things actually being done, surely?

italiahorse · Aug 8, 2016

Nick said:
Yes, because you are making it up.

The same as Juggy does.

Whereas if you educate people, they will also think that. Rather than just saying things and not actually knowing.

Why are you so bothered that I'm criticising Sisu ?
What's in it for you ?

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 8, 2016

italiahorse said:
As I said I'm not an accountant, but .........

Nor am I.

So I trust the accountants on here when they say they aren't doing that.

Captain Dart · Aug 8, 2016

chiefdave said:
Their original plan was clear. Now they are just trying to run at cost neutral hoping at some point they get a return.

Are board salaries actually going to SISU or to paid employees of the club such as Anderson and Fisher?

Directors are listed at companies house.
Fisher & Deering are Directors of SBS&L - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06414248/officers
Fisher, Anderson & Venus are Directors of Otium - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07612487/officers
Directors remuneration is in published accounts (a legal requirement).

italiahorse · Aug 8, 2016

Deleted member 5849 said:
Nor am I.

So I trust the accountants on here when they say they aren't doing that.

So they are not offsetting their losses ?
They must be daft.

Captain Dart · Aug 8, 2016

covcity4life said:
end game is just light at end of tunnel for fans. right now i dont see one

And if you do it is probably an oncoming train.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 8, 2016

Captain Dart said:
And if you do it is probably an oncoming train.

tbf, we'll avoid injury if it's a train to service the Ricoh station on matchdays

Nick · Aug 8, 2016

italiahorse said:
Why are you so bothered that I'm criticising Sisu ?
What's in it for you ?

Nothing is in it for me, you aren't criticising them are you? You are bullshitting, that bullshit then gets other people repeating your bullshit. See Juggy's example.

Then before you know it, you have 50 people going on about your rumour because as it seems to show it is those who shout the loudest who either bullshit the most or just don't know.

What does that help? It doesn't make them look bad does it, it makes you look silly and starts un-needed rage which damages who? The football club.

Captain Dart · Aug 8, 2016

Nick said:
What would explain 2012 being so high, then 2015 going back up?

I guess it will go back up again won't it with Venus on there?

Pay offs?

DULIEU, Kenneth Resigned
Resigned on 29 November 2011
IGWE, Onyechinaeduanaghaefuuzo Resigned
Resigned on 14 September 2012
LABOVITCH, Mark Resigned
Resigned on 11 July 2014

Nick · Aug 8, 2016

Captain Dart said:
Pay offs?

DULIEU, Kenneth Resigned
Resigned on 29 November 2011
IGWE, Onyechinaeduanaghaefuuzo Resigned
Resigned on 14 September 2012
LABOVITCH, Mark Resigned
Resigned on 11 July 2014

Hitmen are cheaper.

stupot07 · Aug 8, 2016

Captain Dart said:
Pay offs?

DULIEU, Kenneth Resigned
Resigned on 29 November 2011
IGWE, Onyechinaeduanaghaefuuzo Resigned
Resigned on 14 September 2012
LABOVITCH, Mark Resigned
Resigned on 11 July 2014

Yeah I was thinking that, particularly ken delieu as he was pushed after that sitting in the dugout nonsense

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Aug 8, 2016

Captain Dart said:
Pay offs?

DULIEU, Kenneth Resigned
Resigned on 29 November 2011
IGWE, Onyechinaeduanaghaefuuzo Resigned
Resigned on 14 September 2012
LABOVITCH, Mark Resigned
Resigned on 11 July 2014

Some of those names bring back shudder worthy memories...

Ken Deluded and Onye Igwe might as well have been the fucking Chuckle Brothers.

clint van damme · Aug 8, 2016

4waspsting said:
I do not think its worth Talking about the shit state they have put the club in. They have no chance of recouping their outlay and i for one am pleased as Fuck .

I'd actually be happy to see them to ride off into the sunset with a big pot of cash after fluking consecutive promotions and been sold to the richer brother of the guy who owns Man City!

italiahorse · Aug 8, 2016

Nick said:
Nothing is in it for me, you aren't criticising them are you? You are bullshitting, that bullshit then gets other people repeating your bullshit. See Juggy's example.

Then before you know it, you have 50 people going on about your rumour because as it seems to show it is those who shout the loudest who either bullshit the most or just don't know.

What does that help? It doesn't make them look bad does it, it makes you look silly and starts un-needed rage which damages who? The football club.

You seem to fall on the side of Sisu when there is uncertainty.
Bullshit is when you are lying and throwing it out there.
My opinion is that Sisu are not loosing out from the current situation otherwise what's the point.
You keep fighting their corner but I'm in the other one head held high.

Captain Dart · Aug 8, 2016

Godiva said:
I think there are a few people who believe the directors are SISU and that director remunerations is payment to SISU.

I don't claim to know how SISU make money from the club, but if they are still acting as a hedge fund and investing others peoples money, then they are paid a percentage of the total asset they control. Not paid by the club, but paid by the investors. In this case it will be counter productive for SISU to 'asset strip' or take out money as this will lower the asset value and thereby lower the payment SISU claim from the investors. Instead they are smart and charge a relatively high interest rate on the loans which they add to the loan balance thereby increasing the loan value and - again increase the fee they charge the investors.
Going forward it will suit SISU to have a club that is more or less self sufficient and to continue charging investors a percentage of the balance sheet.

Agreed I don't think SISU take anything, except management fees from the investors (1% p.a. maybe less). Not sure how the accumulated interest works, maybe it is a mechanism to dilute original investors ownership and move it to ARVO (which Sepalla I think has a closer personal/financial interest in, i.e she has 9%)
The Directors are paid salaries, and as OSB says OK if they do a job worth the fee.
However I'd argue that Mr Fisher is not worth his fee, considering the number of supporters his antics have alienated!

Where I disagree is that I don't think the investors will tolerate leaving their money in a company that isn't worth the amount invested, unless they can take a regular profit and sell it at or near to the sum invested. There is no real money coming out and their are no real assets except Ryton, a few players who would attract a fee and the league position/goodwill of the club.

What do you think is the end game ? (1 Viewer)

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