What do we need to progress? (1 Viewer)

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 2, 2021

Grendel said:
But that’s nothing to do with your argument

I’ll ask again - how has the influx helped the national team

That was not an argument of mine. Elite clubs in Spain, France, Italy and Germany don’t have them stacked with native players. Players go where the money is and EPL clubs have the most.

Your point is free movement has meant we are filled with average players on high wages. My point is that’s more to do with spending power. Talented English players are in higher demand abroad than they used to be which should be telling you something. Gareth Southgate’s shit management is quite separate to that

Grendel · Jan 2, 2021

letsallsingtogether said:
What about Haji, neilson, Boatang etc

One of which wasn’t in the EU of course

hill83 · Jan 2, 2021

Grendel said:
Im speechless

If only

Greggs · Jan 2, 2021

letsallsingtogether said:
What about Haji, neilson, Boatang etc

Glad you spelt one of them correctly, Robbings would be proud.

Frostie · Jan 2, 2021

Grendel said:
So which clubs at our level have benefitted from it? Has it really helped in terms of progression for the national team?

Brentford.

Debatable. I know that's the FA's ideology but does playing inferior players just because they're English help the National Team?

Frostie · Jan 2, 2021

lordy_87 said:
We can do better than Sheaf. If it was up to me I wouldn't sign.

Thankfully it's not.

Grendel · Jan 2, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
That was not an argument of mine. Elite clubs in Spain, France, Italy and Germany don’t have them stacked with native players. Players go where the money is and EPL clubs have the most.

Your point is free movement has meant we are filled with average players on high wages. My point is that’s more to do with spending power. Talented English players are in higher demand abroad than they used to be which should be telling you something. Gareth Southgate’s shit management is quite separate to that

So Garry Lineker, Paul Gasgcoine, Ray Wilkins, David platt, Paul Ince, Kevin keegan, Owen Hargreaves, Steve Mcmanaman, Michael Owen, David Beckham were never in demand abroad - to name but a tiny few.

ok

shmmeee · Jan 2, 2021

Never understood the argument that lowering the quality of the league English players play in will make them better.

If anything’s stopping talent coming through its squad sizes and loan rules. This will just make that worse as clubs are even more incentivised to stock up on young English kids and stick them in the reserves.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 2, 2021

Grendel said:
So Garry Lineker, Paul Gasgcoine, Ray Wilkins, David platt, Paul Ince, Kevin keegan, Owen Hargreaves, Steve Mcmanaman, Michael Owen, David Beckham were never in demand abroad - to name but a tiny few.

ok

We were in the EU all that time were we not?

Grendel · Jan 2, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
We were in the EU all that time were we not?

Not in freedom of movement for a lot then no and I’ll list players from the 50s and 60s if you like? There’s loads

Londonccfcfan · Jan 2, 2021

shmmeee said:
Half way through the season, we look like a bottom 8 side with potential to be mid table IMO (current post loss negativity aside).

Players have talked about pushing at the other end of the table next season, so what would we need to make that happen and become a top ten side?

GK - I like Marosi but I don’t think he commands his area well enough and that affects how the back line play. Also I think his distribution could be better. One of a few top L1/bottom Champ level players. I’d bring in a new GK permanently who is more dominant and more consistent with his distribution. Probably number three priority.

CB - McFafz has been a revelation so far this season, but isn’t getting any younger. I think Rose will come good, less convinced by Hyam especially his bringing the ball out of defence. I think we need a McFadz replacement and a LCB here. Maybe one loan one permanent. I’d have a cheeky go at prising Østigård away if his contract runs down. A solid defence makes the rest of the teams job easier as we saw last season so this would be my number one priority.

LWB - Need two in here anyway unless someone comes through from the U23s. Maybe another loan and a gamble on a younger player. Fourth priority.

RWB - I think we’re OK here.

CM - Kelly like Fadz has proved a lot of people wrong, but also proved he can’t be relied on. I like Sheaf long term and think he’ll keep improving. I expect we’ll sign him based on how often he’s played. Hamer obviously at the level. After that it’s slim pickings. O’Hare had potential but needs the pressure taken off him I think. I’d loan in an AM and bring in another CM (Walsh lol). Fifth priority.

ST - Walker and Godden will both score at this level I think but we need another option who can do the dirty work and get on the end of crosses. I’d spend a little here as well, number two priority. Maybe get a loan and a perm in.

Would leave us with:

GK/Marosi
CB/CB/Rose/Hyam/McFadz
LWB/LWB
Dabo/Dacosta
Hamer/CM
Sheaf/Kelly
AM/O’Hare
ST/ST/Walker/Godden

Then kids/Eccles/Drysdale/Bapaga/Jodi Jones/any of the rest we can’t move on to fill in any gaps. I’d be happy for the likes of Shipley, Allen, to stick around as squad players. Offload: Wilson, Pask, Kastaneer, Hilßner, Jobello

That’s four loans (CB, LWB, AM, ST) which is what we’ve had this season, and five signings, three fairly big (GK, CB, ST - Hamer/Sheaf/Walker style) and a couple of freebies/gambles (LWB, CM - Dacosta/O’Hare style)

Which would seem doable in a window all things being equal. Who knows no corona and we’re back in Cov maybe we get a budget boost?

Patience.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 2, 2021

Greggs said:
Glad you spelt one of them correctly, Robbings would be proud.

Haji, neilson, Boatang

Which one have I been spelling wrong all these years then?

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 2, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Haji, neilson, Boatang

Which one have I been spelling wrong all these years then?

Hadji
Nilsson
Boateng

NortonSkyBlue · Jan 2, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Hadji
Nilsson
Boateng

Non out of three ain’t bad.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 2, 2021

riyadhskyblue said:
Non out of three ain’t bad.

At least he can pronounce them...I hope

SBAndy · Jan 2, 2021

Few things here...

shmmeee said:
CB - McFafz has been a revelation so far this season, but isn’t getting any younger. I think Rose will come good, less convinced by Hyam especially his bringing the ball out of defence. I think we need a McFadz replacement and a LCB here. Maybe one loan one permanent.

Is it an issue with Hyam specifically or is it more with the fact he is a right footer playing at LCB? It quite obviously makes a difference and we’ve tended to fare well with him bringing the ball out, so just wondering whether if we switched him to RCB (and moved Ostigard to CB) that would placate on the proviso of bringing a new LCB in? Or would you still expect/prefer Rose to be starting at RCB?

Grendel said:
By definition it raises the earning opportunity and general opportunity of uk players. It’s inconceivable the likes of Hillsner is earning very much and is taking the place in the squad of someone who can be developed here

Cricket almost destroyed itself Years ago by allowing very average players into teams.

You are being disingenuous in the extreme here, especially bringing cricket into the argument. How many other EU countries play cricket to a first-class level? Apples and pears with the size of the respective labour markets. And besides, when you are suggesting the performance of the national team is contingent on the transfer model of the EFL - bearing in mind the transfer model of the PL is not particularly changing - then you must realise how ridiculous that sounds.

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Haha so now you’re praising the German model? Though since you asked, check out Dortmund’s signings over the last few years. Bellingham, Sancho, Haaland, Witsel etc etc

It’s the ridiculous TV money and acceptance of tycoons that has blown up wages and fees in the PL

The German model as it stands realises that the PL structure sees the highest inflation in players (due to impatience and wild transfer budgets needing to be spent on sub-standard continental shit) and is completely carried out on a self-serving basis. Bring them in for pennies, sell them to a PL club after 3 years for a minimum of £20m.

shmmeee · Jan 3, 2021

SBAndy said:
Few things here...

Is it an issue with Hyam specifically or is it more with the fact he is a right footer playing at LCB? It quite obviously makes a difference and we’ve tended to fare well with him bringing the ball out, so just wondering whether if we switched him to RCB (and moved Ostigard to CB) that would placate on the proviso of bringing a new LCB in? Or would you still expect/prefer Rose to be starting at RCB?

You are being disingenuous in the extreme here, especially bringing cricket into the argument. How many other EU countries play cricket to a first-class level? Apples and pears with the size of the respective labour markets. And besides, when you are suggesting the performance of the national team is contingent on the transfer model of the EFL - bearing in mind the transfer model of the PL is not particularly changing - then you must realise how ridiculous that sounds.

The German model as it stands realises that the PL structure sees the highest inflation in players (due to impatience and wild transfer budgets needing to be spent on sub-standard continental shit) and is completely carried out on a self-serving basis. Bring them in for pennies, sell them to a PL club after 3 years for a minimum of £20m.

I think Rose and Østigård have much better distribution generally, but do think Hyam is made to look worse by being right footed. A left footer wouldn’t have given away that penalty today and there’s been a few occasions where it’s tripped him up this season. I’d like to see a proper LCB whoever we play in the other two slots.

covcity4life · Jan 3, 2021

Hyam did a great forward run with ball yesterday after Inteception. Sheaf slotted in to cover him. Was good to see.

Frostie · Jan 3, 2021

shmmeee said:
I think Rose and Østigård have much better distribution generally, but do think Hyam is made to look worse by being right footed. A left footer wouldn’t have given away that penalty today and there’s been a few occasions where it’s tripped him up this season. I’d like to see a proper LCB whoever we play in the other two slots.

100%. I think a naturally left footed CB would make us much better balanced.
With regards Hyam specifically, he's generally ok for majority of time in matches but got to question some of the decisions he makes every game.

The challenge itself for the penalty was the wrong decision as I think we all acknowledged but actually it's even worse than that. He's ball watching & completely loses his position & the striker got in behind him. He panics & thinks he needs to recover by going to ground.

He was caught under the ball again a little while later, just before O'Hare's miss, striker was in behind again but he was bailed out by good defending from Hamer to defend the cut back.

Also his distribution is erratic. Sometimes pretty good, others a bit off but again it's the decision making I'd query most.
I think even the harshest Sheaf critics recognised that Hyam shouldn't have played that ball in to him v Preston & he made some more strange choices in the early going yesterday.

Here he's just won the ball with a good challenge then under no pressure at all, he slams it straight against his own man a few yards away. Thankfully Sheaf steps in to regain possession.

This is a recurring theme, particularly early in matches, not sure whether it's a nervous energy thing but I do appreciate he has a difficult task on his weaker side too.

I've said it a couple of times & Østigård was obviously a bit of a coup but why didn't we target a lefty?
If we include Thompson & Pask as they've both been in squads this season, we have 6 right footed first team CBs & none naturally left footed.

Hobo · Jan 3, 2021

Grendel said:
One of which wasn’t in the EU of course

Hadji's parents emigrated to France when he was 10 though. Pretty sure he had French citizenship.

shmmeee · Jan 3, 2021

Frostie said:
100%. I think a naturally left footed CB would make us much better balanced.
With regards Hyam specifically, he's generally ok for majority of time in matches but got to question some of the decisions he makes every game.

The challenge itself for the penalty was the wrong decision as I think we all acknowledged but actually it's even worse than that. He's ball watching & completely loses his position & the striker got in behind him. He panics & thinks he needs to recover by going to ground.

He was caught under the ball again a little while later, just before O'Hare's miss, striker was in behind again but he was bailed out by good defending from Hamer to defend the cut back.

Also his distribution is erratic. Sometimes pretty good, others a bit off but again it's the decision making I'd query most.
I think even the harshest Sheaf critics recognised that Hyam shouldn't have played that ball in to him v Preston & he made some more strange choices in the early going yesterday.

Here he's just won the ball with a good challenge then under no pressure at all, he slams it straight against his own man a few yards away. Thankfully Sheaf steps in to regain possession.

View attachment 18091

This is a recurring theme, particularly early in matches, not sure whether it's a nervous energy thing but I do appreciate he has a difficult task on his weaker side too.

I've said it a couple of times & Østigård was obviously a bit of a coup but why didn't we target a lefty?
If we include Thompson & Pask as they've both been in squads this season, we have 6 right footed first team CBs & none naturally left footed.

Reports were we were after Panzo who is left footed. I wonder how much Rose’s injury changed our plans.

Londonccfcfan · Jan 3, 2021

shmmeee said:
I think Rose and Østigård have much better distribution generally, but do think Hyam is made to look worse by being right footed. A left footer wouldn’t have given away that penalty today and there’s been a few occasions where it’s tripped him up this season. I’d like to see a proper LCB whoever we play in the other two slots.

The jury is out with Rose. He's error prone but a decent passer distributor.

Mcfadz let's face it is on his last legs at this level although doing adequately at the moment. Hyam is our best no non sense defender imo, but has obvious weaknesses lack of pace and although has improved his touch and distribution is no where near high end Championship level. I don't think potentially we have anyone mid to high end Championship in defence.

As a unit of 3 they havnt done badly.

We really do need pace at the back. If we are to step up a notch next season.

shmmeee · Jan 4, 2021

Londonccfcfan said:
The jury is out with Rose. He's error prone but a decent passer distributor.

Mcfadz let's face it is on his last legs at this level although doing adequately at the moment. Hyam is our best no non sense defender imo, but has obvious weaknesses lack of pace and although has improved his touch and distribution is no where near high end Championship level. I don't think potentially we have anyone mid to high end Championship in defence.

As a unit of 3 they havnt done badly.

We really do need pace at the back. If we are to step up a notch next season.

Hes not error prone is he? He made a couple of errors coming back from injury, but no worse than Hyam makes on a weekly basis TBH.

Personally I don’t see it with Hyam and think he’s a mistake waiting to happen and decent forwards have him on toast.

KenilworthSkyBlue · Jan 4, 2021

shmmeee said:
Hes not error prone is he? He made a couple of errors coming back from injury, but no worse than Hyam makes on a weekly basis TBH.

Personally I don’t see it with Hyam and think he’s a mistake waiting to happen and decent forwards have him on toast.

Hyam's lack of distribution as well as his insistence on carrying the ball out from the back despite neither having the pace or technical ability are his main issues. He doesn't help himself at lot of the time.

I was hugely critical of Rose in the games that he played in but it was quite clear he wasn't right. It'll be interesting to see what happens once he's back to full fitness.

Jamesimus · Jan 4, 2021

Londonccfcfan said:
The jury is out with Rose. He's error prone but a decent passer distributor.

Happy to be proven / shown otherwise, but in League 1, I always felt Rose was actually our worse passer of the ball / most likely to find an opposition player.

That's not to say his other qualities didn't make him an extremely important defender, and he's not really been error prone up until this season!

DannyThomas_1981 · Jan 4, 2021

Grendel said:
Cricket almost destroyed itself Years ago by allowing very average players into teams.

Cricket has many issues; but it's complete and utter nonsense (no surprise as it's you) to suggest that allowing overseas players and seeing the likes of Richards and Lara grace the County game 'destroyed cricket.'

DannyThomas_1981 · Jan 4, 2021

Grendel said:
But that’s nothing to do with your argument

I’ll ask again - how has the influx helped the national team

Jesus Christ.

Let's go back to the 70s and 80s with no foreign players and not qualify for world cups.

The quality of the English football (romanticism aside) was appalling during that era.

The influx of foreign players has transformed the quality of our domestic leagues and allows our players to play with and against the best week in and week out.

You are joking right?

shmmeee · Jan 4, 2021

Jamesimus said:
Happy to be proven / shown otherwise, but in League 1, I always felt Rose was actually our worse passer of the ball / most likely to find an opposition player.

That's not to say his other qualities didn't make him an extremely important defender, and he's not really been error prone up until this season!

Overall Hyam slightly ahead of Rose, forward passes only Rose well ahead of Hyam:Finding the best starting eleven in League One 2019/20 - data analysis

Londonccfcfan · Jan 4, 2021

shmmeee said:
Hes not error prone is he? He made a couple of errors coming back from injury, but no worse than Hyam makes on a weekly basis TBH.

Personally I don’t see it with Hyam and think he’s a mistake waiting to happen and decent forwards have him on toast.

All defenders make mistakes its what else they bring to the game.

Some of these penaltys are match result/defining.

Mcfadzen, over the course of 1.5 seasons has conceded about 5/6 penaltys off the top of my head. Rose 2 this season in just a handfull of games. Hyam cant think of any apart from last match in 2/3 seasons.

Frostie · Jan 4, 2021

Jamesimus said:
Happy to be proven / shown otherwise, but in League 1, I always felt Rose was actually our worse passer of the ball / most likely to find an opposition player.

That's not to say his other qualities didn't make him an extremely important defender, and he's not really been error prone up until this season!

Close run between the main 3 (McFadz, Hyam & Rose) but Rose was marginally less successful.

Hyam 79.9%
McFadz 78.7%
Rose 74.7%

Rose did attempt more passes generally though & particularly forward & long passes which would naturally impact his success rate.

Rose has had a very difficult season so far for sure but I think it's unfair to label him error prone. Let's not forget how rusty Dabo was when he first came back in & it's only been the last few games where we've seen him really hit top form again.

shmmeee · Jan 4, 2021

Londonccfcfan said:
All defenders make mistakes its what else they bring to the game.

Some of these penaltys are match result/defining.

Mcfadzen, over the course of 1.5 seasons has conceded about 5/6 penaltys off the top of my head. Rose 2 this season in just a handfull of games. Hyam cant think of any apart from last match in 2/3 seasons.

Arguably Hyam's cost us 3 goals in the last two games. Rose was brought back way too early. Dabo had similar issues his first few games but is more protected out on the wing than a CB is. The Rose vs Hyam thing is a false dichotomy anyway, I wouldn't want Rose at LCB, or any of our other defenders, we need a proper LCB bringing in.

I don't hate Hyam at all, just think we need better in his position. Similar to Marosi and O'Hare for me. Not bad players and has moments of real quality, but I can't help but feel we need more in their position to progress.

Londonccfcfan · Jan 4, 2021

shmmeee said:
Arguably Hyam's cost us 3 goals in the last two games. Rose was brought back way too early. Dabo had similar issues his first few games but is more protected out on the wing than a CB is. The Rose vs Hyam thing is a false dichotomy anyway, I wouldn't want Rose at LCB, or any of our other defenders, we need a proper LCB bringing in.

I don't hate Hyam at all, just think we need better in his position. Similar to Marosi and O'Hare for me. Not bad players and has moments of real quality, but I can't help but feel we need more in their position to progress.

Hyam was immense against the big teams with with oafs up front. Birmingham, Cardiff, Rotherham, Stoke, Wycombe. To name but a few games.

I shudder to think how Rose would have performed in those huge aerial tests. Im using examples of doing your job against big teams. Rose has his attributes but no non sense marking defending in the air isnt of them. All day comfortable with Hyam compared to Rose imo.

shmmeee · Jan 4, 2021

Londonccfcfan said:
Hyam was immense against the big teams with with oafs up front. Birmingham, Cardiff, Rotherham, Stoke, Wycombe. To name but a few games.

I shudder to think how Rose would have performed in those huge aerial tests. Im using examples of doing your job against big teams. Rose has his attributes but no non sense marking defending in the air isnt of them. All day comfortable with Hyam compared to Rose imo.

But again it’s not Hyam vs Rose. Rose isn’t a LCB either and I wouldn’t want to play him there.

That said if we did somehow manage to get Østigård on a free, next season I’d see the back line options as:

RCB: Rose/Dacosta
CB: Østigård/McFadz
LCB: New LCB/Hyam

Londonccfcfan · Jan 4, 2021

shmmeee said:
But again it’s not Hyam vs Rose. Rose isn’t a LCB either and I wouldn’t want to play him there.

That said if we did somehow manage to get Østigård on a free, next season I’d see the back line options as:

RCB: Rose/Dacosta
CB: Østigård/McFadz
LCB: New LCB/Hyam

Agree, i think that is feasible gettimg Ostigaard. Id like to see us try to tempt get Willis back im not sure wages would be too much of an issue considering he would be back in his home town.

Desperately need more pace. Regardless what most think id try to tempt Jordan back. Hes near his peak. Sunderland fans generally think hes their best defender. Again hes not left sided.

cc84cov · Jan 4, 2021

Londonccfcfan said:
Agree, i think that is feasible gettimg Ostigaard. Id like to see us try to tempt get Willis back im not sure wages would be too much of an issue considering he would be back in his home town.

Desperately need more pace. Regardless what most think id try to tempt Jordan back. Hes near his peak. Sunderland fans generally think hes their best defender. Again hes not left sided.

Bet Willis regrets that move now hey being as his mrs is in London and that’s why he wanted a move also to Luton ended up at that pile of shite up north Grim

What do we need to progress? (1 Viewer)

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