Otis
Well-Known Member
Remind me, was he a woman transitioning into a man, it a man transitioning into a woman?
Remind me, was he a woman transitioning into a man, it a man transitioning into a woman?We need dubed back
Not sure if you mean it that way or not, but there’s a nasty insinuation here about why someone who wasn’t born a woman would want to use women’s spaces. I assume you accept there are reasons for it beyond being “a creeper”?No. I completely understand why I’m not allowed in women’s spaces and I’m fine with that, because I’m not a creeper.
Not sure if you mean it that way or not, but there’s a nasty insinuation here about why someone who wasn’t born a woman would want to use women’s spaces. I assume you accept there are reasons for it beyond being “a creeper”?
ExactlyI absolutely agree with you Shmmeee (and i didn't see you make any argument against transitioning), but the reason why Sharron Davies, J K Rowling and others have got themselves into conflict with the trans community is because they said out loud that there should be safe spaces where biological men are not allowed. Female changing rooms at gyms and pools are a case in point, but that does offend trans women. There HAVE been cases where men have "identified" as a trans woman solely to gain access to females with the intention of harassing or assaulting them. Those people WILL be in the minority, but if women do not feel safe with a genetic bloke in their safe space, they should not be allowed in.
This kind of inflexibility/generalisation is kind of mind-boggling to me, from someone who is generally intellectually curious about most other things on here.Personally I can’t see why any man would want access to women’s spaces other than for weird reasons TBH.
This kind of inflexibility/generalisation is kind of mind-boggling to me, from someone who is generally intellectually curious about most other things on here.
Don’t want to get into a discussion about sex and gender for which neither of us are properly qualified, but I think the generalisation in the statement “I can’t see why [X group of people] would do this for anything other than weird reasons” is obvious to anyone.What generalisation? What inflexibility? I’m all for be kind, but humans can’t change sex and in some circumstances sex matters. I’m really not sure why this very basic fact we’ve all understood for centuries is now seen as bigotry.
I find you the intellectually incurious one who has taken the line that humans can utter magic words and change sex without question!
Well that's the underlying presumption behind sex segregated changing roomsDon’t want to get into a discussion about sex and gender for which neither of us are properly qualified, but I think the generalisation in the statement “I can’t see why [X group of people] would do this for anything other than weird reasons” is obvious to anyone.
I haven’t seen anyone defend that scenario.Ok so if a fully in tact adult male wants to get changed next to my 14 year old daughter. They have put a wig on though.
The weird thing is that people defend this. It's fucking madness.
Don’t want to get into a discussion about sex and gender for which neither of us are properly qualified, but I think the generalisation in the statement “I can’t see why [X group of people] would do this for anything other than weird reasons” is obvious to anyone.
Is it? I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that. But if you see sex segregated changing rooms solely as being the thin line between civility and all-out widespread sexual assault, then it makes sense that you would have more zealous views about them.Well that's the underlying presumption behind sex segregated changing rooms
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I think you’ve made it quite clear that you don’t know any trans people who you believe are worth empathising with.I don’t know any men who would want to go into a women’s space where they’re not wanted for legitimate reasons, no. You obviously feel a man being sad about being a man is a legitimate reason to put women in danger. I think this is a fundamentally naive or even straight up sexist position to take. It’s the mother of “not all men are like that”
I think you’ve made it quite clear that you don’t know any trans people who you believe are worth empathising with.
If you want to paint the trans community - many of whom are at various stages of transition, hormone therapy, surgical procedures etc - as a monolithic group who should be treated with suspicion by default, then that’s your prerogative. There are undoubtedly trans people out there who wish to enter women’s spaces to do them harm. Just as there are gay people who wish to work with kids to abuse them, immigrants who wish to move to another country to commit terror attacks, or football fans who wish to attend games to take drugs and beat up strangers.
Demonise them and lock them out if you like - it will certainly keep everyone safe.
But at the same time there is another group whose interests need to be considered - biological women.I think you’ve made it quite clear that you don’t know any trans people who you believe are worth empathising with.
If you want to paint the trans community - many of whom are at various stages of transition, hormone therapy, surgical procedures etc - as a monolithic group who should be treated with suspicion by default, then that’s your prerogative. There are undoubtedly trans people out there who wish to enter women’s spaces to do them harm. Just as there are gay people who wish to work with kids to abuse them, immigrants who wish to move to another country to commit terror attacks, or football fans who wish to attend games to take drugs and beat up strangers.
Demonise them and lock them out if you like - it will certainly keep everyone safe.
I struggle to see how I’m “effectively calling for a removal of all sex based protections for women”. My whole point is that there are extremely delicate, extremely specific cases that deserve our attention beyond a blanket assumption that trans women are always up to no good. You clearly disagree.If there was a way to reliably diagnose GD and spot who is “real trans” as they thought when the GRA was brought in and you’re only making a small exception for about 5k seriously unwell people who need to transition then you can have a compromise. But once you’ve got every TikTok and Tumblr teen who doesn’t like conforming yo stereotypes of masculinity and femininity (who does???) saying they’re trans and surgery and GD isn’t needed then you’re effectively calling for a removal of all sex based protections for women. And you can get in the bin.
Make male spaces safe for transwomen, and effeminate men, and men who think they look good in a dress, and gay men, and autistic men, and all the other gender non-conforming men out there.
Of course it matters! Why wouldn’t it?Does the impact on the mental health of the biological women not matter? Are we just going to say to them that their feeling uncomfortable and, in some cases, fear of attack, doesn't matter?
We're not all going to agree on this, so are we united against those just stop oil c*nuts? (Lights blue touch paper and retreats to a safe distance)
I saw Piers Morgan make a rare good point that those individuals don’t seem to take their protesting to Saudi Arabia/Russia/China but prefer to keep them in the UK.We're not all going to agree on this, so are we united against those just stop oil c*nuts? (Lights blue touch paper and retreats to a safe distance)
Out of interest what is your view on those born intersex, ie those who aren’t XX or XY chromosomes? I don’t actually know how we begin to assign one of two genders to those people if that is our preferred route.The problem here is it all sounds great on a high level, “be nice” kind of view. But when you get down to the nitty gritty you need to define a trans person.
The GRA was written in 2004 under the assumption that five thousand or so men with serious GD who have been thoroughly assessed and sex reassignment surgery was recommended to have special dispensation. Mostly so that they could marry as Labour weren’t brave enough to bring in proper gay marriage. You’ll note hereditary titles and the like do not respect a gender recognition certificate. There was always a line where the law went “OK we know what sex you really are”.
Then the activists got hold and started eroding that line. What is transition anyway? Exactly what does “intend to transition” mean? Doesn’t gender really mean something slightly different that’s half Simone de Beauvoir run through Tumblr a few times and half Harry Potter meets Pokémon neo genders, and not just a polite word for sex?
So where’s your line now? Castration is a pretty good sign of commitment and also reassurance for women that they aren’t in danger. There’s no sensible place to put a line that says some men are really women because it’s not a sensible proposition. What does a woman need to look or act like? Why can’t a woman have a beard and a penis? Why does a woman have to wear women’s clothes?
So you’re left with basically an honour system. If someone says “I’m a woman” you have to believe them. And even if you hold fast on a GRC requirement online GPS make it easy and activists are trying to remove any remaining medical barriers anyway.
So yes, you are promoting the defacto removal of all sex segregation, and you’re doing it because if you’re honest with yourself there’s no person you could legitimately say no to their gender identity declaration without it invalidating everyone else’s by proxy.
For me, biological sex is the set of genitalia you were born with as a children depending on your chromosomes.The problem here is it all sounds great on a high level, “be nice” kind of view. But when you get down to the nitty gritty you need to define a trans person.
The GRA was written in 2004 under the assumption that five thousand or so men with serious GD who have been thoroughly assessed and sex reassignment surgery was recommended to have special dispensation. Mostly so that they could marry as Labour weren’t brave enough to bring in proper gay marriage. You’ll note hereditary titles and the like do not respect a gender recognition certificate. There was always a line where the law went “OK we know what sex you really are”.
Then the activists got hold and started eroding that line. What is transition anyway? Exactly what does “intend to transition” mean? Doesn’t gender really mean something slightly different that’s half Simone de Beauvoir run through Tumblr a few times and half Harry Potter meets Pokémon neo genders, and not just a polite word for sex?
So where’s your line now? Castration is a pretty good sign of commitment and also reassurance for women that they aren’t in danger. There’s no sensible place to put a line that says some men are really women because it’s not a sensible proposition. What does a woman need to look or act like? Why can’t a woman have a beard and a penis? Why does a woman have to wear women’s clothes?
So you’re left with basically an honour system. If someone says “I’m a woman” you have to believe them. And even if you hold fast on a GRC requirement online GPS make it easy and activists are trying to remove any remaining medical barriers anyway.
So yes, you are promoting the defacto removal of all sex segregation, and you’re doing it because if you’re honest with yourself there’s no person you could legitimately say no to their gender identity declaration without it invalidating everyone else’s by proxy.
Well it just seems that people seem to be willing to ignore the effect on half of society for those of a tiny minority.Of course it matters! Why wouldn’t it?
Something about this debate seems to make people assume that everyone is arguing in bad faith, but for the avoidance of doubt, it definitely matters!
Do they in Sweden for example,?Well it just seems that people seem to be willing to ignore the effect on half of society for those of a tiny minority.
That may sound harsh, and ultimately it would be fantastic if a solution could be found whereby everyone feels safe and happy, but until then I think the effect on such a large amount of society has to take precedence over what is a small number of people.
The issue is also the place that this could happen - be it a gym or a swimming pool. They aren’t putting in sufficient processes to safeguard people.Ok so if a fully in tact adult male wants to get changed next to my 14 year old daughter. They have put a wig on though.
The weird thing is that people defend this. It's fucking madness.
The issue is also the place that this could happen - be it a gym or a swimming pool. They aren’t putting in sufficient processes to safeguard people.
No one is defending it because this would put someone in a position of vulnerability. Allowing someone to identify as they choose does not give them the unilateral access to safe spaces such as changing areas, nor should it ever.
.. hence the reason why many employers and operators of publicly-accessible facilities have invested hugely in the provision of gender-neutral toilets and changing facilities. We maybe sniggered and tutted at their introduction, but it is the only solution that safeguards EVERY person's privacy and person safety.Well it just seems that people seem to be willing to ignore the effect on half of society for those of a tiny minority.
That may sound harsh, and ultimately it would be fantastic if a solution could be found whereby everyone feels safe and happy, but until then I think the effect on such a large amount of society has to take precedence over what is a small number of people.
The whole sport thing baffles me as well. A whole new can of worms.
Look forward to heavyweight boxing with a trans woman against a woman from birth.
As an increasing number of governing bodies are demonstrating (the latest being rowing), yes you can, where being a male who has gone through puberty provides a clear and significant advantage over a biological woman, no matter how many female hormones he has taken to transition.It's a massive grey area though. Can you stop trans people from participating on sport?
Yup. As I said before, it just needs common sense applying.As an increasing number of governing bodies are demonstrating (the latest being rowing), yes you can, where being a male who has gone through puberty provides a clear and significant advantage over a biological woman, no matter how many female hormones he has taken to transition.
And i am glad they are.
It's really not a grey area. People play on the fact that it's seen as grey area and people are scared of the back lash.It's a massive grey area though. Can you stop trans people from participating on sport?
I think anybody saying they want access to the womens safe space is a wrong un to be honest.Yup. As I said before, it just needs common sense applying.
Women have to have safe spaces. Anyone saying they are now a woman (or whatever), should not get access to female/male safe spaces etc.
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