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We have to be.
SISU isn't ran by stupid people. Clueless about football and running a football club perhaps. But they aren't stupid with money...they run a hedgefund for gods sake.
There is no way that the people they answer to would let them keep pumping dead money into a black hole of debt and failure. They must be benefitting from this somehow...but how? I keep hearing people say that they could use the club losses to avoid paying taxes elsewhere but surely they would still lose out this way.
They're not going anywhere any time soon. Anyone have any realistic theories?
I don't buy this argument that sisu is ran by intelligent people.
For a start they have already admitted themselves that they make investments into sectors they know nothing about.
They've got to start somewhere no?? Like any other investor.
We have to be.
SISU isn't ran by stupid people. Clueless about football and running a football club perhaps. But they aren't stupid with money...they run a hedgefund for gods sake.
There is no way that the people they answer to would let them keep pumping dead money into a black hole of debt and failure. They must be benefitting from this somehow...but how? I keep hearing people say that they could use the club losses to avoid paying taxes elsewhere but surely they would still lose out this way.
They're not going anywhere any time soon. Anyone have any realistic theories?
I suspect we all hope sisu have a master plan which includes footballing success but maybe things are no more complicated than what's in front of our eyes ie Ranson persuaded them to get involved pre financial crash when sisu had more money than they knew what to do with and Joy Seppala wasn't even involved in the decision; post crash JS realises CCFC is costing money and starts to call the shots; sisu behave as what they are - asset strippers who use litigation as a key tactic. If you see things from that perspective it all makes sense: player sales, cost cutting, legal actions, non investment and football being irrelevant - all that matters is squeezing out every last penny they can and being ready to walk away at short-notice if needs be, hence all the short-term contracts. sisu are asset strippers: they don't innovative, invest, produce a product etc so why would the act any differently to how they are? Would love to be proved wrong but reality is things are probably no more complicated than what is on the surface.
Go along with much of this but where does the 4 year contract given to SP fit in with short termism?
Go along with much of this but where does the 4 year contract given to SP fit in with short termism?
Could it be that while they own the club they haven't technically lost the money, it's still sat on a balance sheet somewhere as a debt owed or as an asset (the equity swap?). If, at the point they leave, that is when it all comes crashing down and they have to admit to their investors they have lost the money that would give them incentive to stay.
They say the club is close to running at break even, if that's right then they can hang around for years without putting another penny in hoping a fan wins Euro Millions and buys the club off them.
Go along with much of this but where does the 4 year contract given to SP fit in with short termism?
I don't buy this argument that sisu is ran by intelligent people.
For a start they have already admitted themselves that they make investments into sectors they know nothing about.
They seem incapable of gauging human emotion or anticipating a natural reaction.
Lastly their staff retention levels are appalling. Does suggest they are incapable of making the judgement needed to employ the correct staff.
Astute said:They wanted the freehold of the arena. Nothing more nothing less. That is why they went back on agreements made. And then they took us to Northampton to try and starve ACL into submission. It worked. The only problem is that SISU were like a few of our supporters and thought the arena was a white elephant and shouted down anyone who disagreed.
And they stopped putting money into our club over 2 years ago. Although it will be a bit tricky soon as our attendances are so low after all of the crap going on and not having anyone of value to sell.
chiefdave said:Could it be that while they own the club they haven't technically lost the money, it's still sat on a balance sheet somewhere as a debt owed or as an asset (the equity swap?). If, at the point they leave, that is when it all comes crashing down and they have to admit to their investors they have lost the money that would give them incentive to stay.
They say the club is close to running at break even, if that's right then they can hang around for years without putting another penny in hoping a fan wins Euro Millions and buys the club off them.
Could it be that while they own the club they haven't technically lost the money, it's still sat on a balance sheet somewhere as a debt owed or as an asset (the equity swap?). If, at the point they leave, that is when it all comes crashing down and they have to admit to their investors they have lost the money that would give them incentive to stay.
They say the club is close to running at break even, if that's right then they can hang around for years without putting another penny in hoping a fan wins Euro Millions and buys the club off them.
perhaps their investors are now being told how their money has been used or abused,
i would hope that the performances of the succession of persons, over the last 7 years,
either at, or near, the helm of CCFC, have been accurately reported back to those investors,
which ever is the truth,
how does an organisation like sisu intend to make CCFC a success ?
they do have the opportunity to speculate on a realistic level, to accumulate,
but their achilles heel is their relationship with their customers,
you simply cannot treat your customers as they have done,
and hope that they will forgive and forget,
well over 10,000 fans feel abused
Again suspect this is reading too much into it. They are asset strippers. The pre financial crash investment was the phase that was out of character and that was due to sisu having more money than they knew what to do with and seppala not being involved in the decision to buy ccfc. since JS started calling the shots they've acted to type with selling assets, litigation etc. It's about squeezing every penny out of ccfc not investing in any way - just look at the shop/merchandising! People can get into the complexities of the finances but the overall strategy has been in place for some years now and is in truth very simple.
I think you are right. Seppala can't be stupid - you don't get to have a £10 million house in one of the swishest parts of London when you are stupid. You don't get that by throwing money around either.
I'm not so confident about some of the others running the club. Waggott and Fisher do seem to be completely clueless individuals.
If you take the view that this is nothing to with football but the aim is all about money - and assuming Waggott and Fisher aren't working on a voluntary basis and are more likely to be on the kind of wages the rest of us would give our right arm for - then they're pretty successful!
They have to be pretty intelligent to run a hedge fund. Investing in sectors they personally know nothing about is quite common I imagine...they employ people who do know what they're talking about to advise them...the rest of it is pre-empting expectations of value...
With regards to the incapability of human emotion...don't believe that's the case, they simply don't care. And why would they if it's a simple investment?
Makes sense, and I agree with you. But now that that dream is over, and it is definitely over, what now? They can't honestly believe their court room battles will bring any luck. So...just holding tight and trying to make the club break even while they a) hope someone buys them or, and i don't believe this for a second, b) invest more to try get us promoted and then sell us for a loss anyway?
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This is interesting. I think this is plausible, and why would investors care where there money has gone as long as they are still seeing handsome returns on it? They've got no reason to even question whether they can get their capital back. Besides...realistically £60million probably isn't even a drop in the ocean to the fund/s they are handling...probably billions. That could go some way to explaining why it's only now that they've sort of "given up" that they've decided to make the club cash neutral or whatever the term is. And it's better to just keep the club ticking over than to actually write off the losses.
Shit. We're stuck with these fuckers for a long long long time.
If you take the view that this is nothing to with football but the aim is all about money - and assuming Waggott and Fisher aren't working on a voluntary basis and are more likely to be on the kind of wages the rest of us would give our right arm for - then they're pretty successful!
Would you seriously hand your money over to someone who said "I'm going to go and invest this in something I know nothing about, it might make a profit, or it might not, your guess is as good as mine. Doesn't matter though as its your money not ours".
Who are these people that advise them that supposedly know what they are doing? Can you name one good board room appointment since December 2007?
It didn't quite happen that way, did it?
It was Ranson - the former footballer - who persuaded sisu to invest, Ranson - the football man - who chaired the board the first three years.
Interestingly a lot of posters supported the first board and many still want Hoffman/Elliot back. Of course they are totally ignoring the first board wasted the prime opportunity to turn the failing club around. It's been an uphill struggle ever since.
Would you seriously hand your money over to someone who said "I'm going to go and invest this in something I know nothing about, it might make a profit, or it might not, your guess is as good as mine. Doesn't matter though as its your money not ours".
Who are these people that advise them that supposedly know what they are doing? Can you name one good board room appointment since December 2007?
you see my understanding of asset stripping is that the assets are sold on and the owners extract the sales value...... where have they actually done that? It seems to me that this car crash has resulted in crisis knee jerk decisions just to keep it afloat and that any asset sold has been done so to finance on going operations.
The cutting costs .......... well I have always said they have to live within means. With the prospect of no further external funds it isn't about squeezing costs so they can extract more, it is more about the cash flow does not allow them to pay out on things like proper merchandising space at the Ricoh
SISU have always said they have never taken anything out of CCFC - well no I don't think they have. It isn't where they make their money is it - that's usually in the fund managers fees their investors pay. Have the investors taken anything out? Well ARVO have seen enough value to take preference shares in the group in exchange for debt owed or some of the interest accrued - why they place such value on it you can only wonder. The original funds grew to 29m in 2011 but now stand at 28m so something must have been "taken out" but there are no other details.
I just do not see any real evidence of money disappearing in to the owners pockets thereby leaving CCFC short
Take it back to basics then...... despite the sales of players or other assets being included in the accounts, the SBS&L group has made 53.6m in losses to 31/05/14, has which is matched by annually increasing loans from investors / ARVO or preference shares issued to ARVO. That implies money coming in not going out. If they are making charges against SBS&L they are having to lend SBS&L the money to pay themselves...... with no great prospect of those loans/shares being repaid..... wouldn't think that was great money management or how to asset strip
Do you really think ML was making the decisions in this and controlling it? He couldn't even explain simple accounting entries when interviewed
Not saying he wasn't well educated but he is almost certainly not the brains behind what has gone on at CCFC. The architect of such scheming I am sure lays elsewhere
As for wealth - I have no idea as to his worth nor whether he created or inherited it. Care to enlighten us as to cv and worth?
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