Well Geoff (1 Viewer)

rupert_bear · Apr 2, 2013

Interesting comment in the C.E.T. advising again for all parties to get around the table and talk, it's a shame you wasn't so advisory in the early years when you were part of the Richardson board which sold HR for a song, left us in the lurch regard a football ground, resulting in a ground being built for almost double the cost of any other similar ground the results of such decisions contributes to the mess we are in today. Perhaps you could ignore the confidentiallity agreements set in those days and enlighten us mear supporters why such ridiculous decisions by so called business men were made and what happened to the money.

BrisbaneBronco · Apr 2, 2013

Bryan Richardsons Trust account (Spread Trust) allegedly

JWC · Apr 2, 2013

rupert_bear said:
Interesting comment in the C.E.T. advising again for all parties to get around the table and talk, it's a shame you wasn't so advisory in the early years when you were part of the Richardson board which sold HR for a song, left us in the lurch regard a football ground, resulting in a ground being built for almost double the cost of any other similar ground the results of such decisions contributes to the mess we are in today. Perhaps you could ignore the confidentiallity agreements set in those days and enlighten us mear supporters why such ridiculous decisions by so called business men were made and what happened to the money.

I couldn't agree more. Why are these folk coming out of the wood work to comment on others shortcomings? Hardly blameless himself is he?

torchomatic · Apr 2, 2013

GR. I certainly agree with his stance now regarding the Arena. It should be nothing to do with a charity or the Council. However, it's pretty rich coming from someone who is partly responsible for the whole sorry mess we find ourselves in currently.

Wrenstreetcarpark · Apr 2, 2013

well he might just have another reason to be interested:

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...lose-250k-in-stadium-rent-row-92746-32625970/

Bluegloucester · Apr 2, 2013

Wrenstreetcarpark said:
well he might just have another reason to be interested:

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...lose-250k-in-stadium-rent-row-92746-32625970/

Isn't there another party in the same boat?

Wrenstreetcarpark · Apr 2, 2013

McGinnity's goat?

Bluegloucester · Apr 2, 2013

Wrenstreetcarpark said:
McGinnity's goat?

Quite (10 characters)

Jack Griffin · Apr 2, 2013

Coventry - Interest Payments - 2000-2007 an interesting graph
http://www.football-finances.org.uk/coventry/interest2.htm

PS Craigavon Geoffery Robinson's family trust.

This is instructive also
http://www.football-finances.org.uk/coventry/debt2.htm

rob9872 · Apr 2, 2013

Geoff believes in socialism, but only for everyone else.

6 Generations · Apr 2, 2013

rob9872 said:
Geoff believes in socialism, but only for everyone else.

That's Communism.

Every one is equal, but some are more equal than others.

SkyBlueSwiss · Apr 2, 2013

torchomatic said:
GR. I certainly agree with his stance now regarding the Arena. It should be nothing to do with a charity or the Council. However, it's pretty rich coming from someone who is partly responsible for the whole sorry mess we find ourselves in currently.

Why on Earth would you say it should be nothing to do with a charity or the council? If the charity and the council had not got involved years ago, there would be no stadium to argue about and no football club for us to be fans of.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people on here totally forget or ignore this very simple fact. They would not be involved if the club had not got itself into dire financial straights. Please remember this the next time you feel the need to berate Higgs Trust or the council - they saved this football club when no-one else could or would!
Good grief!

Grendel · Apr 2, 2013

SkyBlueSwiss said:
Why on Earth would you say it should be nothing to do with a charity or the council? If the charity and the council had not got involved years ago, there would be no stadium to argue about and no football club for us to be fans of.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people on here totally forget or ignore this very simple fact. They would not be involved if the club had not got itself into dire financial straights. Please remember this the next time you feel the need to berate Higgs Trust or the council - they saved this football club when no-one else could or would!
Good grief!

So what the council have had the money back in rent, the regeneration charity at Stoke handed back their share to the club at "cost price" - the council motivation is not and never has been the football club. Only when we drive them out of town will we start to prosper again.

Sky Blues · Apr 2, 2013

Grendel said:
So what the council have had the money back in rent, the regeneration charity at Stoke handed back their share to the club at "cost price" - the council motivation is not and never has been the football club. Only when we drive them out of town will we start to prosper again.

Has the council had its money back in rent? Or has the rent been going to paying off the loan taken out to complete the stadium (there is still some £14million left to be paid off) and improving the stadium complex so it becomes less reliant on the football club income? The increase in non-football related income was probably part of the reason, along with the restructuring of the loan, why ACL were able offer a lower rent to the club in the negotiations.

SkyBlueSwiss · Apr 2, 2013

Grendel said:
So what the council have had the money back in rent, the regeneration charity at Stoke handed back their share to the club at "cost price" - the council motivation is not and never has been the football club. Only when we drive them out of town will we start to prosper again.

Do you ever give a sensible answer?

Grendel · Apr 2, 2013

SkyBlueSwiss said:
Do you ever give a sensible answer?

Only if I'm asked a sensible question.

Tonylinc · Apr 2, 2013

The simple fact Grendel is that if it were not for the Council and the Higgs Trust, the stadium would not have been built. On this you must agree surely. Yes; we all agree that the time has come for the stadium ownership to be transferred to the football club BUT how can ACL negotiate with them when any agreements reached will be wiped from their memories the very next day?

thegameaintstraight · Apr 2, 2013

Grendel said:
Only if I'm asked a sensible question.

So what is your solution to the whole sorry mess?
Second thoughts I guess this maybe isn't a sensible question but you could perhaps give it a go.

Cov Kid Dave · Apr 2, 2013

Difficult one really this - can see the points knocking GR - but couple of observations. The 250k he might or might not lose, I think is not massive to him. I think some of the outsiders may have been taken in, maybe even GR if if he was more involved in politics than the club . As an MP we do wonder sometimes if what is said is true but that aside, he has actually lost £20m of his money in the original transfer to SISU. Like most fans at that time I was glad to see someone save the club - even though it might be different if we knew then what we know now! I dont think much of this mess is down to 'Well Geoff'
It would however help the fans to know more of the truth and inside information which GR could start - but more importantly I think it needs key players and known personalities to start pushing and talking to bring the sky blue soap opera to an end. Whatever people think of Geoffrey Robinson, Richard Keys, etc they do have a stage - and favourties like Joe Elliot and the Hoff have the contacts. MAybe they have started the talks . . .

torchomatic · Apr 2, 2013

And so what? They only put £10M of their own money in and they've had £8M back. I'm not ignoring the fact they stepped in when Richardson et al fucked everything up, but they've done alright out of it and they now need to step down. Coventry City need to own the ground.

It never ceases to amaze me that Coventry City fans can't seem to get that. How long do we have to keep doffing our hats at the Council and kissing their boots?

SkyBlueSwiss said:
Why on Earth would you say it should be nothing to do with a charity or the council? If the charity and the council had not got involved years ago, there would be no stadium to argue about and no football club for us to be fans of.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people on here totally forget or ignore this very simple fact. They would not be involved if the club had not got itself into dire financial straights. Please remember this the next time you feel the need to berate Higgs Trust or the council - they saved this football club when no-one else could or would!
Good grief!

Sky Blues · Apr 2, 2013

torchomatic said:
And so what? They only put £10M of their own money in and they've had £8M back. I'm not ignoring the fact they stepped in when Richardson et al fucked everything up, but they've done alright out of it and they now need to step down. Coventry City need to own the ground.

It never ceases to amaze me that Coventry City fans can't seem to get that. How long do we have to keep doffing our hats at the Council and kissing their boots?

When did the council get £8million back? I must have missed that. As I understand it, the rent has been going towards paying off the loan and improving the stadium complex, so where did the council get £8million from?

Grendel · Apr 2, 2013

torchomatic said:
And so what? They only put £10M of their own money in and they've had £8M back. I'm not ignoring the fact they stepped in when Richardson et al fucked everything up, but they've done alright out of it and they now need to step down. Coventry City need to own the ground.

It never ceases to amaze me that Coventry City fans can't seem to get that. How long do we have to keep doffing our hats at the Council and kissing their boots?

There's a sensible question Sky Blue Swiss - want to give an answer?

Grendel · Apr 2, 2013

Sky Blues said:
When did the council get £8million back? I must have missed that. As I understand it, the rent has been going towards paying off the loan and improving the stadium complex, so where did the council get £8million from?

Just out of interest from a Coventry City Football Club angle -- why do you care?

Sky Blues · Apr 2, 2013

Grendel said:
Just out of interest from a Coventry City Football Club angle -- why do you care?

Just trying to understand. If someone has paid Cov City Council back £8million for their equity investment in the stadium, I'd like to know who. It might change my thoughts on the situation.

Bluegloucester · Apr 2, 2013

Cov Kid Dave said:
Difficult one really this - can see the points knocking GR - but couple of observations. The 250k he might or might not lose, I think is not massive to him. I think some of the outsiders may have been taken in, maybe even GR if if he was more involved in politics than the club . As an MP we do wonder sometimes if what is said is true but that aside, he has actually lost £20m of his money in the original transfer to SISU. Like most fans at that time I was glad to see someone save the club - even though it might be different if we knew then what we know now! I dont think much of this mess is down to 'Well Geoff'
It would however help the fans to know more of the truth and inside information which GR could start - but more importantly I think it needs key players and known personalities to start pushing and talking to bring the sky blue soap opera to an end. Whatever people think of Geoffrey Robinson, Richard Keys, etc they do have a stage - and favourties like Joe Elliot and the Hoff have the contacts. MAybe they have started the talks . . .

Let's hope so.

Jack Griffin · Apr 2, 2013

Sky Blues said:
Just trying to understand. If someone has paid Cov City Council back £8million for their equity investment in the stadium, I'd like to know who. It might change my thoughts on the situation.

They haven't, the £10M equity investment made by the council still stands, as does a sum of £9.2M in grants from AWM & EDRF.

They are refering to an additional £21M bridging loan made by the council in 2003 that enabled the project to be completed, some details are in this story published at the time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/3198884.stm this money is being paid back over a period of years, it is now down to £14M capital outstanding and interest is being charged at a rate marginally higher than local government terms.

Coventry City Council has agreed to provide the £21m needed to save a £113m football stadium.

More than 50 councillors attended a full council meeting on Thursday where they spent more than three hours debating whether to provide the funds needed to build a new stadium for Coventry City Football Club.

Twenty-nine councillors voted in favour of providing the bridging loan to complete the funding needed to build the 32,000-seat Coventry Arena, with only Conservative councillors voting against the scheme.

PS The Higgs charity paid £6.5M to CCFC in 2003 to buy out the clubs shareholding, that money was spent by the club and all they have left is an option to buy the 50% shareholding back which expires in 2015.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...09/arena-s-6-5m-charity-boost-92746-13387458/

Sky Blues · Apr 2, 2013

Jack Griffin said:
They haven't, the £10M equity investment made by the council still stands, as does a sum of £9.2M in grants from AWM & EDRF.

They are refering to an additional £21M bridging loan made by the council in 2003 that enabled the project to be completed, some details are in this story published at the time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/3198884.stm

Thanks Jack. Those were the figures I knew about. I just wanted an explanation of where this £8million figure for the council came from. That can't be called a return on the council's equity investment if it was used to pay off the loan from Yorkshire Bank. There is so much conjecture floating around as fact on here that it makes it difficult for the uninitiated to understand what is going on. Many an argument appears to collapse in the face of the known facts.

For example, my thoughts on what would be a fair price for the club to get hold of the Ricoh might change if I thought the council had already received 8/10ths of its equity investment back. Alternatively, anyone thinking "the council had recovered most of its equity investment in building the Ricoh" might reconsider that position if the council had not received £8million...

oakey · Apr 2, 2013

torchomatic said:
And so what? They only put £10M of their own money in and they've had £8M back. I'm not ignoring the fact they stepped in when Richardson et al fecked everything up, but they've done alright out of it and they now need to step down. Coventry City need to own the ground.

It never ceases to amaze me that Coventry City fans can't seem to get that. How long do we have to keep doffing our hats at the Council and kissing their boots?

Torch, I genuinely think most City fans do accept the club should own the arena or, at the very least, own the revenue streams. The issues are,
1) Why should CCC and ACL part with it for nothing or next to nothing?
2) Do you trust SISU to honour this investment and faith in them and move the club forward?

For my part the answers are
1) Negotiate a fair settlement , ah there's the rub ... None of us will agree on what is fair even if we had the facts.
2) No

DazzleTommyDazzle · Apr 2, 2013

Grendel said:
Just out of interest from a Coventry City Football Club angle -- why do you care?

I'm really struggling to understand how you can ask this question, when it's placed right next to your question to SkyBlueSwiss.

Grendel · Apr 2, 2013

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
I'm really struggling to understand how you can ask this question, when it's placed right next to your question to SkyBlueSwiss.

Pretty straightforward. If your principal interest is the football club you should focus on that. Arguing if the council have had their fair return is irrelevant. The club should get the stadium and it should have this at as low a price as possible as this will benefit the club. I am only interested in the club I don't give a stuff about ACL or the Council.

sky blue john · Apr 2, 2013

Grendel said:
Pretty straightforward. If your principal interest is the football club you should focus on that. Arguing if the council have had their fair return is irrelevant. The club should get the stadium and it should have this at as low a price as possible as this will benefit the club. I am only interested in the club I don't give a stuff about ACL or the Council.

I agree the stadium and the club should be united this is the only way we can move forward.
So what do you think sisu would do with the stadium Grendel ?
I think they would have the biggest mortgage possible on it !!!!
Have sisu mortgaged ryton ?
have sisu mortgaged next seasons tickets ?
Surely all the interest payments currently be paid if added would negate any extra stadium revenue !!!
Ccfc would probably be in a worse state than now with sisu owning the ricoh !!!

Jack Griffin · Apr 2, 2013

I think we all agree that a new deal has to be cut, but I don't see why SISU should walk away with the stadium rights for next to nothing and sell CCFC at a large profit or saddle them with a large debt that will hold them back for years.

One has to be more careful than has been the case in the past, if the owners were likely to invest in Coventry then I 'd play a different tune. I just think they'll exit when they make a profit & what remains may not be pretty.

I will give them this though, they've cut overheads & brought the club close to a cost neutral position.. unfortunately that was achieved by relegation to Div 3 and incumbering the books with a massive debt.

sky blue john · Apr 2, 2013

How can the books be anywhere near balanced ?
They have mortgaged ryton and probably paying interest !!!
They have already had next seasons ticket money !!!
wheres next seasons income coming from ?

Sky Blues · Apr 2, 2013

sky blue john said:
How can the books be anywhere near balanced ?
They have mortgaged ryton and probably paying interest !!!
They have already had next seasons ticket money !!!
wheres next seasons income coming from ?

It's a bit old now so it might have changed, but according to OSB and others the external mortgage on Ryton was paid off and replaced by a charge to Sky Blue Sports & Leisure:
http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/11316-FAQ-2-Money-Talks/page4

Jack Griffin · Apr 2, 2013

I'm not sure about Ryton, one mortgage was paid off. Likewise I thought the loan on advance season tickets was paid up too as that was only an interim measure while SISU decided how to proceed.
There are 2 charges on CCFC Ltd, one presumably to Avro to secure ~£8M assets as preferential creditor, documentation for the other one had not been fiiled at companies house last time I looked a week ago.

The books are not balanced I never said that, there is a big debt, but the cash coming in is more or less equal to cash going out in a year, it may even be positive once a few big players contracts end, provided season tickets sales don't collapse.

However there is no surplus cash to pay back the debt on the books, it is unrecoverable as it stands.

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