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Wasps going into admin & the impact on CCFC (8 Viewers)

  • Thread starter Alkhen
  • Start date Sep 21, 2022
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fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 4, 2022
  • #876
MusicDating said:
From the prospectus -

Risks relating the head lease of the Arena granted to ACL2006

Under the terms of the head lease granted by Coventry City Council (“CCC”) to Arena Coventry (2006) Limited (“ACL2006”) in respect of the Arena (the “Head Lease”), CCC have reserved the right to forfeit the Head Lease if ACL2006 becomes insolvent.

Insolvency in this scenario means a situation where ACL2006 becomes unable to pay its debts, has a receiver/administrator/provisional liquidator appointed over its assets, has assets seized in order to pay debts of ACL2006 or has a winding-up order made against it.

The effect of forfeiture would be that the 250 year Head Lease would fall away and that ACL would then become the tenant of CCC at the Arena for the remaining 38 years of its existing lease.

However, the right of CCC to claim forfeiture of the Head Lease is not an automatic right. If CCC made a claim for such forfeiture, this could be contested by ACL2006, any third party that held security over ACL2006 and any subtenants of ACL2006 by making application to a court in England.

Further, if an administrator was to be appointed over the assets of ACL2006, then CCC would not be able to forfeit the Head Lease without the consent of the appointed administrator or with the leave of the courts.
Click to expand...
This is where the bondholders dropping the ball may be to their detriment

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 4, 2022
  • #877
Colin Steins Smile said:
However, the right of CCC to claim forfeiture of the Head Lease is not an automatic right. If CCC made a claim for such forfeiture, this could be contested by ACL2006, any third party that held security over ACL2006 and any subtenants of ACL2006 by making application to a court in England.
Are CCFC a subtenant?
Click to expand...
Probably yeah but ACL is too

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 4, 2022
  • #878
Liquid Gold said:
How’s Sunderland?
Click to expand...
No idea. Couldn't even tell you where they are in the table. Why don't you ask those from here that visited their site well after we last played them last season?

It is idiotic comments like this that keeps me away from commenting on here. As you well know my wife has cancer and when I can't be in France with her and look after my children I am on the phone to her for hours each day trying to keep her together.

But thanks for thinking about me.
 
Reactions: skyblueed999, Greggs and Sky Blue Pete
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 4, 2022
  • #879
Derek Richardson

 
Reactions: CCFCSteve, AOM and duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 4, 2022
  • #880
fernandopartridge said:
This is where the bondholders dropping the ball may be to their detriment

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The problem is that the bondholders don't have direct rights, everything goes through the trustee... who was originally appointed by Wasps and seems remarkably reluctant to take any action.

If SISU pulled this kind of crap, the local media would be all over it. Wasps, for reasons that are entirely opaque to me, seem to get away with it.
 
Reactions: JimmyHillsbeard

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 4, 2022
  • #881
duffer said:
The problem is that the bondholders don't have direct rights, everything goes through the trustee... who was originally appointed by Wasps and seems remarkably reluctant to take any action.

If SISU pulled this kind of crap, the local media would be all over it. Wasps, for reasons that are entirely opaque to me, seem to get away with it.
Click to expand...
And we know what our local media are like, say what you like about Gilbert but he does do some digging and report on it
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 4, 2022
  • #882
Astute said:
As you well know my wife has cancer
Click to expand...
Fucking hell. I didn’t know that at all. My deepest wishes to you on that. Come on.
 
Reactions: Flying Fokker, Otis and Sky Blue Pete
R

rexo87

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 4, 2022
  • #883
Has the extra NOI actually been granted or just requested?

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk
 

Sky Blue Harry H

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #884

Wasps on brink of deal to repay multimillion-pound debts | TheBusinessDesk.com

Bondholders are owed £35m
www.thebusinessdesk.com

Article published today - headline sounds more positive than the detail in the article.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #885
Sky Blue Harry H said:

Wasps on brink of deal to repay multimillion-pound debts | TheBusinessDesk.com

Bondholders are owed £35m
www.thebusinessdesk.com

Article published today - headline sounds more positive than the detail in the article.
Click to expand...
"Wasps have said they are close to a deal", didn't need to read past the first line, they've been claiming any day now for months.
 
Reactions: torchomatic and duffer
T

theferret

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #886
Sky Blue Harry H said:

Wasps on brink of deal to repay multimillion-pound debts | TheBusinessDesk.com

Bondholders are owed £35m
www.thebusinessdesk.com

Article published today - headline sounds more positive than the detail in the article.
Click to expand...

That was Sep 5th
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Harry H

Sky Blue Harry H

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #887
theferret said:
That was Sep 5th
Click to expand...
My bad
 
Reactions: duffer

Mcbean

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #888
Extra 10 days has been granted according to the DT this morning
 

MusicDating

Euro 2016 Prediction League Champion!!
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #889
From the DT article on Worcs, saying they're likely to be relegated. The administrator expects their appeal on Covid grounds to be rejected by the RFU...

Even were a takeover to be completed in time for Worcester to see out the season, Palmer expected the Rugby Football Union to relegate them anyway at the end of the campaign.

Palmer had lobbied the RFU not to impose the sanction designed to punish clubs that enter administration, asking them to invoke a no-fault clause covering insolvencies triggered by the coronavirus crisis.

“We put in our appeal, as we were required to, within 24 hours,” she said.

“The RFU’s response to that appears to be – but not fully confirmed – that we’re on very thin ground in terms of that appeal.”
 
Reactions: NortonSkyBlue

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #890
MusicDating said:
From the DT article on Worcs, saying they're likely to be relegated. The administrator expects their appeal on Covid grounds to be rejected by the RFU...

Even were a takeover to be completed in time for Worcester to see out the season, Palmer expected the Rugby Football Union to relegate them anyway at the end of the campaign.

Palmer had lobbied the RFU not to impose the sanction designed to punish clubs that enter administration, asking them to invoke a no-fault clause covering insolvencies triggered by the coronavirus crisis.

“We put in our appeal, as we were required to, within 24 hours,” she said.

“The RFU’s response to that appears to be – but not fully confirmed – that we’re on very thin ground in terms of that appeal.”
Click to expand...
Worcester could be an issue for Wasps. If a new owners comes in and thinks they have been treated differently to Wasps by the RFU they might consider taking legal action. Not sure the RFU will be keen on leaving themselves open to that.
 
Reactions: torchomatic, ccfcchris and duffer

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #891
Liquid Gold said:
Fucking hell. I didn’t know that at all. My deepest wishes to you on that. Come on.
Click to expand...
I didn't know either. Best wishes for you and your wife, Astute.
 
Reactions: torchomatic, no_loyalty, Somerset Sky Blue and 4 others

jordan210

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #892
New NOI show on caseboard. Shows as completely new ones not an update to the old one
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #893
Browsing the Web whilst on the phone. Been announced that all players and staff at Worcester are having their contracts cancelled and are free to sign elsewhere

Worcester Warriors: WRFC Players Ltd wound up in High Court

WRFC Players Ltd, the payroll arm of Worcester Warriors, is wound up in the High Court in London over money owed to HMRC.
www.bbc.co.uk

So how much longer can Wasps kick the can down the road?
 
S

steve cooper

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #894
Sky Blue Harry H said:

Wasps on brink of deal to repay multimillion-pound debts | TheBusinessDesk.com

Bondholders are owed £35m
www.thebusinessdesk.com

Article published today - headline sounds more positive than the detail in the article.
Click to expand...
theferret said:
That was Sep 5th
Click to expand...
Just goes to show though to take anything said with a massive pinch of salt.
This is an article from a couple of weeks ago with similarly positive headline.

Wasps tipped for ‘bright future’ despite financial crisis threatening club

Wasps filed a notice of their intention to appoint an administrator with the High Court.
www.independent.co.uk
It's massively in anyone's interest in this position to talk things up, in the hope that something will turn up.
 
Reactions: duffer
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #895
When is the interest to the bondholders due?
Trustee surely would be obliged to act then?
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #896
Otis said:
I didn't know either. Best wishes for you and your wife, Astute.
Click to expand...

Just to second that, I'm sure everyone here would wish you the best, Astute, it sounds like you're really going through it.

We might differ over football, (and rugby, politics, accountancy, and law for that matter!*), but we're still all fans together at the end of the day. If there's anything you need I'll bet there's someone hereabouts who'll be willing to help - just ask mate.

(*and music, this lot just have the worst taste in music)
 
Reactions: JimmyHillsbeard, torchomatic, no_loyalty and 6 others

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #897
Astute said:
Browsing the Web whilst on the phone. Been announced that all players and staff at Worcester are having their contracts cancelled and are free to sign elsewhere

Worcester Warriors: WRFC Players Ltd wound up in High Court

WRFC Players Ltd, the payroll arm of Worcester Warriors, is wound up in the High Court in London over money owed to HMRC.
www.bbc.co.uk

So how much longer can Wasps kick the can down the road?
Click to expand...

I'm going to guess another 10 working days at the most, then HMRC are going to get their kicking boots on and put a stop to it even if no one else does.
 
Reactions: Mcbean

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #898
I'm amazed the trustee hasn't done anything for the bondholders.

You'd think they'd be all set up with something for this sort of the event but they've done fuck all and left it to the bondholders to set up a Facebook group.
 
Reactions: duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #899
wingy said:
When is the interest to the bondholders due?
Trustee surely would be obliged to act then?
Click to expand...

Every six months, from memory, so I think mid to late November (bonds were issued in May iirc).
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #900
Liquid Gold said:
I'm amazed the trustee hasn't done anything for the bondholders.

You'd think they'd be all set up with something for this sort of the event but they've done fuck all and left it to the bondholders to set up a Facebook group.
Click to expand...

What is the relationship between Trustee and Wasps?
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #901
Nick said:
What is the relationship between Trustee and Wasps?
Click to expand...

The trustee was appointed by Wasps when the bonds were issued, notionally to represent the interests of the bondholders.

It's starting to look like that system is somewhat flawed, as what it really does is mean that the bondholders can't take action other than through the trustee.
 
Reactions: wingy
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #902
What would have to change for the exchange to remove the restrictions on trading the bond's?
 

Mcbean

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #903
That interest payment is 6.5% every six months !!!! No wonder the £2k was forthcoming from the bond holders
 
O

oldfiver

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #904
Mcbean said:
That interest payment is 6.5% every six months !!!! No wonder the £2k was forthcoming from the bond holders
Click to expand...

3.25% every six months
 

SBAndy

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #905
Mcbean said:
That interest payment is 6.5% every six months !!!! No wonder the £2k was forthcoming from the bond holders
Click to expand...

6.5% annual rate payable twice a year. So effectively 3.25% every 6 months.
 
S

steve cooper

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #906
SBAndy said:
6.5% annual rate payable twice a year. So effectively 3.25% every 6 months.
Click to expand...
Still a ridiculously high rate. During the time the bond has been in issue there have been times when it was a struggle to get 1%
Obviously it reflected the risk, as all investments do.
 
Reactions: hutch1972 and duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #907
It's probably not looking like such a good return now though. And given what's gone on and where interest rates currently are, what rate would bondholders need to be offered to extend? Double and then some, I'd venture.

How could Wasps afford to pay interest at (say) 13% per annum on 35million. That's £4.5 million just in interest.

If they can get out of this one it'll make those 'A-Team' escapes look realistic.
 
Reactions: torchomatic, steve cooper and Samo

MusicDating

Euro 2016 Prediction League Champion!!
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #908
duffer said:
It's probably not looking like such a good return now though. And given what's gone on and where interest rates currently are, what rate would bondholders need to be offered to extend? Double and then some, I'd venture.

How could Wasps afford to pay interest at (say) 13% per annum on 35million. That's £4.5 million just in interest.

If they can get out of this one it'll make those 'A-Team' escapes look realistic.
Click to expand...
Yup, the timing couldn't have come at a worst time for Wasps (they might have got away with it in May!) and I really can't see how they can avoid admin. Even posters on Onceawasp are starting to realise that.

I've no doubt Wasps continued to issue optimistic statements since the default so that the Trustees could justify not taking any action.

What happens in the event of a forfeiture is too opaque for me to understand but does point towards the courts to decide and I've very glad I'm not a bondholder...
 
Reactions: duffer

Calista

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #909
I still suspect Wasps will find a way to hang around, but let’s imagine they are gone. I want to believe CCFC might gain – but how exactly, apart from a flatter pitch?

The web of companies is way beyond me. Who would be calling the shots if Wasps were out of the equation? Would Sisu be looking to get the 250 year lease, or would they go back to their old demands for the unencumbered freehold with all the contracts paid off? Would they treat CCFC any differently to the way they do now? They aren’t showing any interest in the Premier League, but would that change? Would we be any more attractive to a new owner, or would the debts and the costs of owning the white elephant still be prohibitive?
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 5, 2022
  • #910
wingy said:
What would have to change for the exchange to remove the restrictions on trading the bond's?
Click to expand...

As I understand it, it's controlled by the FCA and you need stuff like a draft bond prospectus that meets with their approval.

Given the current bond is supposed to have redeemed in May, and all of the confusion around administration, I can't see the FCA relisting it.

That's because I also can't see how the current prospectus can be seen to apply and that the bonds themselves are now technically in default.

In short, I can't see it happening.

The only way I see the bondholders getting paid is a new investor clearing the debt, possibly by offering a haircut, or the bondholders forcing the sale of the lease and any other assets held by Wasps/ACL.

Thinking it through further, the problem with offering a haircut is that they'd have to get a certain proportion to agree, and I don't think that's going to be easy in the amount of time Wasps have left; especially now that the administration clock is ticking.

Unless there's genuinely someone out there with a lot of money to throw at Wasps, £40-50m, then I can't see any way they avoid administration. Just my personal opinion though, obviously.
 
Reactions: BananaFlats, Skyblueweeman and wingy
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