Wasps downward spiral... (11 Viewers)

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

duffer said:
Wasps potential to move elsewhere in London/SE was being discussed a long time ago...

Wasps linked again to Olympic Stadium move

London Wasps could yet link up with Leyton Orient FC as co-tenants of London's Olympic Stadium after the 2012 Games.

www.espn.co.uk

Yep I saw that in 2007 (2 or 3 ? owners before Richardson) ...... The impression I got from Nick was that it was something more recent around the time of the Cov move .... One ESPN article published 5 years before the Olympics is hardly factual that they turned it down ! But I suppose you believe what you want to believe. Likewise the talk of Brentford and many rumors years before the stadium was ever built but nothing ever came of it. Both were years before Richardson was around. Adams Park was only ever temporary, so not surprising there were rumors of a move around that era .... there were many more suggested and rumored but thats all they were rumors, nothing more. Wycombe airfield is another one that failed.

duffer said:
So let's be adults; the only reason Wasps (self-branded, remember, as London Wasps), moved to Coventry is that they got a knock-down price on the stadium.

I wouldnt say it was the only reason ...... but a knock down stadium was obviously a good enough reason for Richardson.

duffer said:
They didn't care about their London based supporters, or the impact on the football club or rugby club that were already in Coventry. Their actions then and since have clearly demonstrated that.

I would agree that leaving supporters behind is not good ....... Although personally I don't see why all 3 cant co exist if things are done in the right way

duffer said:
Strangely enough, a lot of people here, a fair number of neutrals, and a good proportion of London Wasps supporters, didn't consider that ethical, and still don't.

To a lot of people its water under the bridge

duffer said:
And it turns out it wasn't even about survival, the stated plan was to become the richest club in the world...

Wasps to become richest rugby club in the world, says chief

Wasps announce plans for a £35m bond and say they are on course to become the richest rugby club in the world.

www.bbc.co.uk

It was stated in the context of revenue .......... which with hindsight was a daft thing to say ....... but we all know hindsight is wonderful !

duffer said:
So if you're seeing a certain amount of pleasure here in their current struggles, and you don't understand it, then I don't think you've really understood the history.

I get it ....... Ive said before I agree with many viewpoints on here

duffer said:
As for their ultimate survival in Coventry, I'll guess we'll see; but the lack of accounts for ACL, the failure to refinance the bond, the sale of future profits to CVC, and the general lack of interest from the local public, must set off some warning bells surely? Regardless of your ethical standards, they are all facts beyond denial.

Yep time will tell .......... Huge warning bells from a business perspective it seems a mess ...... but strip it back to the rugby I really dont think Wasps will go anywhere, one way or another the Rugby club will survive ..... that said none of us know !

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

MusicDating said:
You appear to be ignoring posters who are linking to factual articles and getting hung up on '8k crowd' and '95%' estimates.

What factual articles am I ignoring ? ....... Is every newspaper or online article a fact ?

Nick · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
What factual articles am I ignoring ? ....... Is every newspaper or online article a fact ?

Saddlebrains · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
I think there's a difference between people not being interested in going to watch them play or not being interested in Wasps in general, versus 95% of the population despising Wasps ...... reality is its hard to quantify .... certainly a few thousand interested enough to take the free tickets !

Next time you're in a pub in the city, doctors surgery, dentists, whatever, try without making it obvious you're a wasps fan, and strike up conversation about your club with someone, and have a look at the reaction you'll be met with

I am certain it wont be positive

MusicDating · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
What factual articles am I ignoring ? ....... Is every newspaper or online article a fact ?

Well, they were articles containing quotes from Richardson/Eastwood, so I guess not...

duffer · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
Yep I saw that in 2007 (2 or 3 ? owners before Richardson) ...... The impression I got from Nick was that it was something more recent around the time of the Cov move .... One ESPN article published 5 years before the Olympics is hardly factual that they turned it down ! But I suppose you believe what you want to believe. Likewise the talk of Brentford and many rumors years before the stadium was ever built but nothing ever came of it. Both were years before Richardson was around. Adams Park was only ever temporary, so not surprising there were rumors of a move around that era .... there were many more suggested and rumored but thats all they were rumors, nothing more. Wycombe airfield is another one that failed.

I wouldnt say it was the only reason ...... but a knock down stadium was obviously a good enough reason for Richardson.

I would agree that leaving supporters behind is not good ....... Although personally I don't see why all 3 cant co exist if things are done in the right way

To a lot of people its water under the bridge

It was stated in the context of revenue .......... which with hindsight was a daft thing to say ....... but we all know hindsight is wonderful !

I get it ....... Ive said before I agree with many viewpoints on here

Yep time will tell .......... Huge warning bells from a business perspective it seems a mess ...... but strip it back to the rugby I really dont think Wasps will go anywhere, one way or another the Rugby club will survive ..... that said none of us know !

Appreciate the honesty, like you say no one really knows about the financial stuff, but from the outside it looks ugly at the moment.

I think you're a bit wrong on the "water under the bridge" thing too.
There's still plenty of dislike for Wasps, and I don't think it'll be going away anytime soon. That doesn't mean it's personal of course, or at least it shouldn't be.

I've got friends and neighbours who go up on occasion (we still get on just fine), but of the mates I've got who go regularly to CCFC or CRFC, I can only think of one who also sometimes goes to Wasps.

Last but not least, on the move thing; my opinion is still that there were clear options available in and around London, but once the cheap deal at the Ricoh became available nothing else was going to be considered. (Brentford was within Richardson's period for instance, and London Irish now seem happy there).

I still can't believe the RFU sanctioned the franchising of an established team, and if there's a primary fault, it's there, imho.

I know the argument is that Wasps were taking unsustainable losses at Adams Park (2.7m a year, iirc), but I would make the point that even after moving to Coventry that hasn't really changed, has it?

It served Richardson's interests to pitch that as the reason for having no option but to move to Coventry, but was it really true?

Anyhow, I'll leave it there. We obviously differ on this, but I'm happy to do so in a friendly way. Can't promise everyone will be the same!

fernandopartridge · Jun 13, 2022

tisza said:
Still think most of it comes down to most interested parties over-estimate the broad appeal / potential of Rugby.
Half the geographical country represented by just 2 clubs who can't attract more than 15k between them to watch home games.
Value of the last TV contract dropped and now CVC get 27% of that.Without the CVC money clubs would have gone bust.
They had to impose a huge drop in salary cap to keep clubs alive.
Most Premiership clubs only sell 60-70% of their home game tickets.

Correct, even after a World Cup win in 2003 and all the publicity it got, the sport didn't grow at all.

chiefdave · Jun 13, 2022

duffer said:
Last but not least, on the move thing; my opinion is still that there were clear options available in and around London, but once the cheap deal at the Ricoh became available nothing else was going to be considered. (Brentford was within Richardson's period for instance, and London Irish now seem happy there).

The idea that it is impossible to build a new stadium in London or find someone to groundshare with was always clearly nonsense. How did Brentford and Wimbledon end up with new stadiums? If the argument was that the Ricoh was a cheaper option than that would be valid but brings you back to the issue of if its right to move teams around the country but that's not the argument that was made.

duffer said:
I know the argument is that Wasps were taking unsustainable losses at Adams Park (2.7m a year, iirc), but I would make the point that even after moving to Coventry that hasn't really changed, has it?

Has anything other than Wasps saying it to be true ever been given as evidence to back this? If Wasps can cover huge losses here why were they about to cease to exist with smaller losses in Wycombe? Why were Wasps in danger yet other clubs seem to cope. The story doesn't quite seem to stand up to scrutiny.

tisza · Jun 13, 2022

duffer said:
I think you're a bit wrong on the "water under the bridge" thing too.
There's still plenty of dislike for Wasps, and I don't think it'll be going away anytime soon. That doesn't mean it's personal of course, or at least it shouldn't be.

Dislike amongst some City fans one issue but the antipathy amongst the larger Coventry public to Wasps or Rugby in general isn't going to turn around Wasps finances either.
is there such a thing as a rugby marquee signing that can put 000s on the gate like certain footballers can?
Can't argue with the unimpressive levels of paying attendees - even when Wasps were doing slightly better on the field.
It's hard to see what can significantly turn around the rugby finances.

FulltimeWum · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
Explain why ? …. is that because historically football clubs are associated with a town or city. The mentality of football supporters is very much territorial …. That’s not always the case with rugby clubs, many clubs are associated with a town or city …. But the history of some rugby clubs is different.

I think if many of you are honest if Wasps hadn’t moved to the Ricoh but another stadium locally that hadn’t had an impact on CCFC, this thread wouldn’t exist. It’s the fact that Wasps came to the Ricoh that aggravated you not that they came to Cov, although I don’t expect for one moment anyone would admit that.

Dubai-Dodger said:
I have no Idea what the majority of Wasps supporters think ..... much the same as you have no idea what what the average CCFC supporter thinks

I just don't think you understand.

MacReady · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
Or more like a solid 95% of the city dont care ?

No he’s right. 95% of the city don’t want you here at all

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

Saddlebrains said:
Next time you're in a pub in the city, doctors surgery, dentists, whatever, try without making it obvious you're a wasps fan, and strike up conversation about your club with someone, and have a look at the reaction you'll be met with

I am certain it wont be positive

That’s the thing …… I have and people I’ve met are indifferent. That said I fully accept thats not many and there many who are passionate about it but most of those who have strong feelings have some affiliation with CCFC.

chiefdave · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
That’s the thing …… I have and people I’ve met are indifferent. That said I fully accept thats not many and there many who are passionate about it but most of those who have strong feelings have some affiliation with CCFC.

I think people forget how many people have some affiliation with CCFC as you phrase it. Easy to do when we were in freefall but look at the reaction to more positive events at the club, it doesn't just impact the 20K that turn up week in week out, the mood changes throughout the entire city.

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

tisza said:
Dislike amongst some City fans one issue but the antipathy amongst the larger Coventry public to Wasps or Rugby in general isn't going to turn around Wasps finances either.
is there such a thing as a rugby marquee signing that can put 000s on the gate like certain footballers can?
Can't argue with the unimpressive levels of paying attendees - even when Wasps were doing slightly better on the field.
It's hard to see what can significantly turn around the rugby finances.

A marquee signing will generate interest but not in the same way as football ….. that said Wasps have been there and done that and the result is questionable….. my own view is development of good prospects rather than buy stars.

Consistent results and good games will bring in consistent gates, same with any sport , I’m not suggesting capacity crowds but good enough.

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

chiefdave said:
I think people forget how many people have some affiliation with CCFC as you phrase it. Easy to do when we were in freefall but look at the reaction to more positive events at the club, it doesn't just impact the 20K that turn up week in week out, the mood changes throughout the entire city.

I don’t underestimate the number with affiliation …… also the feel good factor of a team doing well swells that number massively and as much as people want to deny it, that happened to a smaller degree when Wasps acheived good results a couple of years after the move, many will say it was free tickets and flags but not all of it.

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

chiefdave said:
The idea that it is impossible to build a new stadium in London or find someone to groundshare with was always clearly nonsense. How did Brentford and Wimbledon end up with new stadiums? If the argument was that the Ricoh was a cheaper option than that would be valid but brings you back to the issue of if its right to move teams around the country but that's not the argument that was made.

Has anything other than Wasps saying it to be true ever been given as evidence to back this? If Wasps can cover huge losses here why were they about to cease to exist with smaller losses in Wycombe? Why were Wasps in danger yet other clubs seem to cope. The story doesn't quite seem to stand up to scrutiny.

of course it’s possible to build a new stadium, I can only comment on Brentford but that literally took absolutely years to achieve with many setbacks along the way and a ton of money. As for whether it was true Wasps were broke at Adams Park, I think the accounts will give you that answer. They had literally no revenue from AP so there was no way out of the situation other than someone with deep pockets.

tisza · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
A marquee signing will generate interest but not in the same way as football ….. that said Wasps have been there and done that and the result is questionable….. my own view is development of good prospects rather than buy stars.

Consistent results and good games will bring in consistent gates, same with any sport , I’m not suggesting capacity crowds but good enough.

so what do you think are the consistent gates Wasps can achieve if they manage these consistent results etc whilst operating within the confines of a salary cap and (for now) lower gates than most of the other clubs?

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

duffer said:
Appreciate the honesty, like you say no one really knows about the financial stuff, but from the outside it looks ugly at the moment.

I think you're a bit wrong on the "water under the bridge" thing too.
There's still plenty of dislike for Wasps, and I don't think it'll be going away anytime soon. That doesn't mean it's personal of course, or at least it shouldn't be.

I've got friends and neighbours who go up on occasion (we still get on just fine), but of the mates I've got who go regularly to CCFC or CRFC, I can only think of one who also sometimes goes to Wasps.

Last but not least, on the move thing; my opinion is still that there were clear options available in and around London, but once the cheap deal at the Ricoh became available nothing else was going to be considered. (Brentford was within Richardson's period for instance, and London Irish now seem happy there).

I still can't believe the RFU sanctioned the franchising of an established team, and if there's a primary fault, it's there, imho.

I know the argument is that Wasps were taking unsustainable losses at Adams Park (2.7m a year, iirc), but I would make the point that even after moving to Coventry that hasn't really changed, has it?

It served Richardson's interests to pitch that as the reason for having no option but to move to Coventry, but was it really true?

Anyhow, I'll leave it there. We obviously differ on this, but I'm happy to do so in a friendly way. Can't promise everyone will be the same!

I do think some now see a very different side to Richardson as a businessman, that said he is passionate about wasps and that’s why I strongly believe he won’t let the rugby fold. None of us know the true ins and outs and complexities of his businesses, I know it’s used a lot as an excuse but covid hasn’t helped with many sadly losing jobs at CBS as well as the impact on the business.

We will never know what options there were to move within London, but I don’t think it’s as easy as many think just to magic up a stadium, the club needed income to play and continue, something the Ricoh solved albeit now a very different picture.

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

tisza said:
so what do you think are the consistent gates Wasps can achieve if they manage these consistent results etc whilst operating within the confines of a salary cap and (for now) lower gates than most of the other clubs?

impossible to predict, but as CCFC have seen good performance and results brings punters back to watch. I know people who have given up season tickets partly because of Wasps inconsistency and partly because of their finances but probably would have found the money if it was worth it. I think the current financial situation that many people have now will be the end of the ‘come rain or shine’ supporter. Like I say hard to put a figure on gates but it would rise With decent games.

Grendel · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
I do think some now see a very different side to Richardson as a businessman, that said he is passionate about wasps and that’s why I strongly believe he won’t let the rugby fold. None of us know the true ins and outs and complexities of his businesses, I know it’s used a lot as an excuse but covid hasn’t helped with many sadly losing jobs at CBS as well as the impact on the business.

We will never know what options there were to move within London, but I don’t think it’s as easy as many think just to magic up a stadium, the club needed income to play and continue, something the Ricoh solved albeit now a very different picture.

Richardson I thought had a support for Leinster and was of course attempting the Bedford Coventry merger - was he ever a wasps fan? Any evidence?

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

Grendel said:
Richardson I thought had a support for Leinster and was of course attempting the Bedford Coventry merger - was he ever a wasps fan? Any evidence?

I suppose I should have said passionate about Rugby and obviously now Wasps …… I really don’t know if there is any historical connection but I don’t think so.

Grendel · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
I suppose I should have said passionate about Rugby and obviously now Wasps …… I really don’t know if there is any historical connection but I don’t think so.

He had a passing interest in rugby didn’t he?

wasn’t he initially part of a consortium to
Purchase wasps and everyone else withdraw but from his relationship established following the “st Helier lunch” he decided with Eastwood to do it?

Do you have any evidence he was really a rugby fan?

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

Grendel said:
Do you have any evidence he was really a rugby fan?

What evidence do you want ?

No I don’t have ‘evidence’ that he attended games before he was involved with Wasps.

He attends games home and away and abroad, he’s very knowledgable about the game and takes a very personal interest in players and their welfare etc. far more than many owners who are perceived to be in it for purely financial gain.

CCFC54321 · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
What evidence do you want ?

No I don’t have ‘evidence’ that he attended games before he was involved with Wasps.

He attends games home and away and abroad, he’s very knowledgable about the game and takes a very personal interest in players and their welfare etc. far more than many owners who are perceived to be in it for purely financial gain.

I take it you don’t work or have retired as you’ve been on this site for the last 48 hours non stop?

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

CCFC54321 said:
I take it you don’t work or have retired as you’ve been on this site for the last 48 hours non stop?

Recovering from illness and bored ….. I was just thinking the same thing myself.

Philosoraptor · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
What evidence do you want ?

No I don’t have ‘evidence’ that he attended games before he was involved with Wasps.

He attends games home and away and abroad, he’s very knowledgable about the game and takes a very personal interest in players and their welfare etc. far more than many owners who are perceived to be in it for purely financial gain.

I am absolutely 100% positive this would be the reply from any fan who have had their sporting team ripped from their area and planted somewhere 100 miles away.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
Recovering from illness and bored ….. I was just thinking the same thing myself.

You could at least have chosen a more entertaining username.

Grendel · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
What evidence do you want ?

No I don’t have ‘evidence’ that he attended games before he was involved with Wasps.

He attends games home and away and abroad, he’s very knowledgable about the game and takes a very personal interest in players and their welfare etc. far more than many owners who are perceived to be in it for purely financial gain.

Does he? Do you have evidence of that?

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

Grendel said:
Does he? Do you have evidence of that?

you like Your evidence don’t you !

I do …. Ive seen him at countless games home and away, very few I’ve not spotted him … I’ve spoken to him in depth on a couple of occasions and my lad knows a couple of players well and they speak highly of him from a welfare poInt of view … and family welfare point of view. Aside of what he’s like as a business man …. He does seem a genuinely nice guy. …. I always speak as I find.

Grendel · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
you like Your evidence don’t you !

I do …. Ive seen him at countless games home and away, very few I’ve not spotted him … I’ve spoken to him in depth on a couple of occasions and my lad knows a couple of players well and they speak highly of him from a welfare poInt of view … and family welfare point of view. Aside of what he’s like as a business man …. He does seem a genuinely nice guy. …. I always speak as I find.

That is anecdotal though? The same as me meeting a head of rugby at a championship club who said the whole of the industry thinks wasps are dodgy fuckers and no one knows where the money comes from and every club thinks they are a bunch of wankers

You may never have met Richardson and I may never have known said Director of Rugby

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

Grendel said:
That is anecdotal though? The same as me meeting a head of rugby at a championship club who said the whole of the industry thinks wasps are dodgy fuckers and no one knows where the money comes from and every club thinks they are a bunch of wankers

You may never have met Richardson and I may never have known said Director of Rugby

It’s not anecdotal that I see him at almost every game that I’ve been to wherever it may be, although granted that doesn’t tell you a lot. I can very quickly tell if someone is knowledgeable about rugby when I talk to them and it’s not anecdotal the interest he shows in welfare.

what do you want tickets stubs from 5 years of games before he came to Wasps ?

I would suggest far more reliable than the story you’ve embellished about the director of rugby.

Grendel · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
It’s not anecdotal that I see him at almost every game that I’ve been to wherever it may be, although granted that doesn’t tell you a lot. I can very quickly tell if someone is knowledgeable about rugby when I talk to them and it’s not anecdotal the interest he shows in welfare.

what do you want tickets stubs from 5 years of games before he came to Wasps ?

I would suggest far more reliable than the story you’ve embellished about the director of rugby.

Well yes it’s totally embellished as you’ve just said it as fact on a football forum and old chap yes the conversation with the director of rugby is a fact - you boys ain’t very popular

oldfiver · Jun 13, 2022

The Rugby Blog

The Rugby Blog can get your fill of rugby opinion and discussion, the odd rant and a bit of banter among rugby supporters.

www.therugbyblog.com

What is known is that they negotiated with Coventry Council to acquire the stadium for a contrived price that got CCC off the hook
Most of the purchase price was already funded and underwritten by CCC for a priod beyond the deal date
By the issue of the Bond one of the first transactions was to repay part of the owners loan - not put into the club. However his current position is now back to when they were at AP so that says something?
The current position is after large contributions to them for spurious works at the Stadium; income from the sale of PL Shares and sell offs of chunks of the F&B business to Franchisors. None of these are likely to be repeated in the short term

As to tickets we all are aware of them being given away in the City centre, 3 for one deals and the like but all counted as sales.

All "allegedly" of course

Dubai-Dodger · Jun 13, 2022

Grendel said:
yes the conversation with the director of rugby is a fact - you boys ain’t very popular

what has Wasps popularity got to do with whether Richardson is a rugby supporter ?

Grendel · Jun 13, 2022

Dubai-Dodger said:
what has Wasps popularity got to do with whether Richardson is a rugby supporter ?

None but you haven’t provided a shred of evidence he is it ever Have been unless you’ve had a post deleted?

Wasps downward spiral... (11 Viewers)

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