USSR invades Ukraine. (12 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It has a lot of influence if Russia decide to take on the world and we have absolutely no means of defence. It isn´t hard to spot the apologists at all.

Just accept that your vote would have meant us being walked over. My last say on the matter.

So. Just playing devils advocate Russia has just invaded a country that borders Poland (a EU and NATO member) from a country that Borders Poland. What deterrent did trident offer exactly?

The point has been made today that our border doesn’t stop at the white cliffs of Dover, we are members of NATO and as such the border we protect as our first line of defence is NATO’s border. Russia are at our border through hostilities and aggression and trident hasn’t deterred that.

chiefdave · Feb 24, 2022

Flying Fokker said:
I think he will be taken out by his own people who will blame the West…

At the moment that might be our best hope. The way he was treating his chief spy the other day is surely going to raise some eyebrows in his inner circle.

As mad as they may be and as much as they may want to recreate the old soviet block surely they can see the issue when he starts hinting at dropping nukes? The question is will an internal power struggle distract him or encourage him to push the button to show what a strong leader he is.

Bugsy · Feb 24, 2022

Russia wants to seize and control parts of Ukraine, western officials believe
Russia intends to seize and control a large section of Ukraine, according to western officials.
Their assessment is that Vladimir Putin's forces are using precision military strikes, air strikes and ground manoeuvres to cross the Ukrainian border from multiple directions – including from the area of the Donbass region, Crimea and Belarus.
While western officials said it was unclear whether taking control of the whole country was an immediate objective of the Russian forces, they said their current assessment was that the way forces were moving could indicate Kyiv, Odessa, Mariupol and separatist areas could all be targeted.

Ukraine invasion live updates: '40 dead' as Russia launches 'second wave' - NATO says we have 'war in Europe on scale we thought belonged to history'

clint van damme · Feb 24, 2022

Sky Blue Harry H said:
I see Trump has piped up, saying Putin didn't want to do this, but saw America as weak. Like he would have done anything - he was (and is) the biggest Putin apologist around. My brother worked in America for a few years and says he worked with some Americans who asked where he was from, and he said England, and they asked which State that was in. They have a really insular view of the world. If it's outside the USA, they know (or care) little about it.

To be fair I've been to America several times and I've never met one person who thought England was in America.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Feb 24, 2022

chiefdave said:
What are you on about. Corbyn isn't, and never has been, PM or Foreign Secretary. What he does or doesn't want to do makes absolutely no difference to anything.

No he isn´t, so thank fuck more people didn´t vote like you. Own it my friend. Own it.

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It isn´t hard to spot the apologists at all.

Another massive leap

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Feb 24, 2022

skybluetony176 said:
So. Just playing devils advocate Russia has just invaded a country that borders Poland (a EU and NATO member) from a country that Borders Poland. What deterrent did trident offer exactly?

The point has been made today that our border doesn’t stop at the white cliffs of Dover, we are members of NATO and as such the border we protect as our first line of defence is NATO’s border. Russia are at our border through hostilities and aggression and trident hasn’t deterred that.

It has nothing to do with what happened last night. How is that hard to understand? Well it isn´t, but you are just deflecting on purpose.

If this escalates to all out war, which is a serious possibility, then that deterrent could be the only thing that stops it coming to our shores.

chiefdave · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
No he isn´t, so thank fuck more people didn´t vote like you. Own it my friend. Own it.

Own what, I didn't vote for him. I don't even live in Islington and haven't done for many years.

Liquid Gold · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It has a lot of influence if Russia decide to take on the world and we have absolutely no means of defence. It isn´t hard to spot the apologists at all.

Just accept that your vote would have meant us being walked over. My last say on the matter.

It has fuck all influence on Russia.

Do you think they're scared about our handful of rockets while America has thousands pointing at every inch of their country?

People have a seriously skewed worldview and our place in it.

Also the fucking irony of you saying it's distasteful for people to discuss brexit here but then bang on about Corbyn.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Feb 24, 2022

It seems to me that Putin is willing to risk nuclear war and the destruction of Russia in his pursuit of taking back , at least in part, what was lost to the USSR in the past 30 years.
He knows that if he he carries out his warning to use nuclear weapons against any country which tries to stop him then World War Three will begin and end very quickly.

Yet he seems undeterred.

clint van damme · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
No he isn´t, so thank fuck more people didn´t vote like you. Own it my friend. Own it.

Own what? He lost, there's nothing to own. Everything is supposition.
Our current PM celebrated his election victory at the home of an ex KGB agent, 25 percent of his cabinet have received Russian money, he charges to play tennis with the wives of oligarchs, none of that is supposition, it's all fact.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Feb 24, 2022

Liquid Gold said:
It has fuck all influence on Russia.

Do you think they're scared about our handful of rockets while America has thousands pointing at every inch of their country?

People have a seriously skewed worldview and our place in it.

Also the fucking irony of you saying it's distasteful for people to discuss brexit here but then bang on about Corbyn.

It is a very good job most of the country do not share your politics to be honest.

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 24, 2022

Anyway, good to see this thread degenerates into illogical inflammatory bullshit eh...

Us having some outdated nuclear weapons is a total waste of time in my view. They don't offer defence, as if a nutter wants to send some nuclear weapons our way, then us having some of any level is redundant. Nutters tend not to think pragmatically, too...

Also, during the Cold War, the USA helpfully protected us by training their nuclear arsenal on the UK, so if the USSR showed any signs of advancing towards us, they could blow us up and save us from rule by the communists. With friends like that...

But there, ultimately, is the reason why we have delusions of grandeur in thinking us having nuclear weapons defends us anymore than, say, Switzerland, that has had as few nuclear assaults as we have, and is arguably way down the pecking order for any assault as they are no threat. Naturally, one or a couple of nations holding nuclear weapons while the others give them up would be nonsensical, but Russia will be far more worried about other countries than us.

Therefore, we either need to upgrade our nuclear arsenal somewhat urgently, or give it up. Holding on to the illusion is no use whatsoever, and doesn't offer a defence anyway. And that's along the lines of much of our armed forces nowadays where we cling to a desire to pretend we're more than we are, and don't equip them as we should. Time to put up or shut up really from us. Maybe we should actually buy the equipment we sell to other regimes for our own military.

So anybody who thinks that makes me a Corbyn fan, or a Putin apologist can knock themselves out really, because I know it's nonsensical bullshit based on nothing other than random leaps.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Feb 24, 2022

clint van damme said:
Own what? He lost, there's nothing to own. Everything is supposition.
Our current PM celebrated his election victory at the home of an ex KGB agent, 25 percent of his cabinet have received Russian money, he charges to play tennis with the wives of oligarchs, none of that is supposition, it's all fact.

I don´t disagree. I am just pointing out that one vote choice would have made our only single deterrent disappear. People are getting all upset because they know I´m right. They have to accept that their choice of vote would have lead to that, and it is absolutely frightening to think how close that was. As usual though, SBT off topic chat is an echo chamber of about half a dozen posters who don´t live in the real world.

Liquid Gold · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It is a very good job most of the country do not share your politics to be honest.

It's literally 51%-49% in favour of nuclear trident deterrent.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Feb 24, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Anyway, good to see this thread degenerates into illogical inflammatory bullshit eh...

Us having some outdated nuclear weapons is a total waste of time in my view. They don't offer defence, as if a nutter wants to send some nuclear weapons our way, then us having some of any level is redundant. Nutters tend not to think pragmatically, too...

Also, during the Cold War, the USA helpfully protected us by training their nuclear arsenal on the UK, so if the USSR showed any signs of advancing towards us, they could blow us up and save us from rule by the communists. With friends like that...

But there, ultimately, is the reason why we have delusions of grandeur in thinking us having nuclear weapons defends us anymore than, say, Switzerland, that has had as few nuclear assaults as we have, and is arguably way down the pecking order for any assault as they are no threat. Naturally, one or a couple of nations holding nuclear weapons while the others give them up would be nonsensical, but Russia will be far more worried about other countries than us.

Therefore, we either need to upgrade our nuclear arsenal somewhat urgently, or give it up. Holding on to the illusion is no use whatsoever, and doesn't offer a defence anyway. And that's along the lines of much of our armed forces nowadays where we cling to a desire to pretend we're more than we are, and don't equip them as we should. Time to put up or shut up really from us. Maybe we should actually buy the equipment we sell to other regimes for our own military.

So anybody who thinks that makes me a Corbyn fan, or a Putin apologist can knock themselves out really, because I know it's nonsensical bullshit based on nothing other than random leaps.

Would you rather have no deterrent at all, at this current moment in time? It is a simple question.

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Would you rather have no deterrent at all, at this current moment in time? It is a simple question.

Are you incapable of reading, or are you just going to continue to make nonsensical leaps of faith?

SBT · Feb 24, 2022

Sky Blue Harry H said:
My brother worked in America for a few years and says he worked with some Americans who asked where he was from, and he said England, and they asked which State that was in. They have a really insular view of the world. If it's outside the USA, they know (or care) little about it.

Then the whole room stood up and clapped

I think your brother just finally disproved the cliche that Brits do sarcasm better than Americans.

Liquid Gold · Feb 24, 2022

If anybody is interested in truth by the way the 2019 Labour manifesto said:

"We will maintain our commitment to NATO and our close relationship with our European partners, and we will use our influence at the United Nations to support peace and security worldwide."

A New Internationalism

Labour Party Manifesto 2019

labour.org.uk

skybluetony176 · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It has nothing to do with what happened last night. How is that hard to understand? Well it isn´t, but you are just deflecting on purpose.

If this escalates to all out war, which is a serious possibility, then that deterrent could be the only thing that stops it coming to our shores.

OK then, in the interest of balance there’s something like 19000 nuclear warheads in the world, enough to kill the planet multiple times over. 95% of which are in the hands of 2 countries neither of which is ours. We hold 200 warheads out of about 19000. What deterrent are they exactly in the big scheme of things?

Also worth noting that if any nation ever delivered 100 nuclear warheads even to the other side of the world and assuming no one fired back in retaliation that’s estimated to be enough to fuck your own country in the process. There is an adult conversation to have about trident and at least scaling it back drastically. But it doesn’t start with imagine if Corbyn.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Feb 24, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Are you incapable of reading, or are you just going to continue to make nonsensical leaps of faith?

It is a yes or no answer.

People are getting very touchy about Corbyn. If he got in we would have had a leader that wanted to scrap our only defence. That is about as factual as it gets. How good that defence is up for debate, fine, but the previous point still stands.

I despise the tories, but at this point in time I would certainly rather have a Trident than no Trident whatsoever. I think people are seriously underestimating how far on the looney scale Putin has gone, and what he might do. He got away with Crimea, and now he is going for the rest of Ukraine. If he gets that, then what? I seriously doubt he is going to stop there.

We are on the brink of WW3 here.

chiefdave · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I am just pointing out that one vote choice would have made our only single deterrent disappear.

Are you looking at a different version of the 2019 Labour Party manifesto to the one I can find online?

Labour supports the renewal of the Trident nuclear deterrent.

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 24, 2022

Anyway, worth noting the current Labour leader is unequivocal in his desire for strong measures to be implemented.

Let's hope he gets his way.

Ccfcisparks · Feb 24, 2022

Taiwan minister says that there 9 Chinese fighter jets just entered their airspace.

David O'Day · Feb 24, 2022

chiefdave said:
Are you looking at a different version of the 2019 Labour Party manifesto to the one I can find online?

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf

The has always supported trident, the unions wouldn't let them not

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 24, 2022

Ccfcisparks said:
Taiwan minister says that there 9 Chinese fighter jets just entered their airspace.

Don't they do that quite often?

David O'Day · Feb 24, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Anyway, worth noting the current Labour leader is unequivocal in his desire for strong measures to be implemented.

Let's hope he gets his way.

Even wants them removed from SWIFT

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 24, 2022

David O'Day said:
MAD reduces and removes the will to use nuclear weapons.

It reduces it certainly.
It removes it right until the point someone uses them.

I think some people expect everyone is sane and rational.

SBT · Feb 24, 2022

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
It seems to me that Putin is willing to risk nuclear war and the destruction of Russia in his pursuit of taking back , at least in part, what was lost to the USSR in the past 30 years.
He knows that if he he carries out his warning to use nuclear weapons against any country which tries to stop him then World War Three will begin and end very quickly.

Yet he seems undeterred.

Based on what? Going nuclear makes sense only in the context of an episode of 24.

xcraigx · Feb 24, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Don't they do that quite often?

The Chinese very frequently visit Taiwanese airspace.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 24, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
So you would rather scrap it then? Have nothing at all whatsoever?

Come on. That is totally ridiculous. If we had Corbyn we wouldn't even have that. I know you don't like to hear it, but it is fact.

I specifically say in my post you quoted if we don't have them we're at the mercy of others.

But the facts about them being old and expensive is true. But they are better than nothing.

It's not just nuclear we need to worry about. Salisbury has already shown us they're quite willing to unleash biological agents. They're banned, but so is invading a sovereign nation. He doesn't give a fuck.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 24, 2022

Nick said:
Why not just send a sniper for the c**t?

There's the Nick we know and love

"get a reducer in early doors"

Otis · Feb 24, 2022

clint van damme said:
To be fair I've been to America several times and I've never met one person who thought England was in America.

Nope. Most say it's in France

Liquid Gold · Feb 24, 2022

Last time I was in America I spoke to someone who thought England was in Germany.

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 24, 2022

clint van damme said:
To be fair I've been to America several times and I've never met one person who thought England was in America.

When I went one of the motel owners said 'England, that's near Germany isn't it?' We laughed, long and snidely.

But actually, given the size of the US, he's not really wrong! I mean, if I were to say Florida, that's near Massachussets isn't it? then they're both in the same country...

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