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USSR invades Ukraine. (18 Viewers)

  • Thread starter Alan Dugdales Moustache
  • Start date Feb 22, 2022
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Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,576
Grendel said:
that’s even more worrying
Click to expand...

Really? So a man chooses to invade a country from 3 sides with nearly all he’s got and there are no similarities to a certain someone doing it in ‘39?

I guess the Ukrainian journalist who asked Boris the other day was taking the piss too.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,577
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Really? So a man chooses to invade a country from 3 sides with nearly all he’s got and there are no similarities to a certain someone doing it in ‘39?

I guess the Ukrainian journalist who asked Boris the other day was taking the piss too.
Click to expand...

no there are no similarities whatsoever and for once Johnson gave a fairly direct and correct response to the question
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,578
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Really? So a man chooses to invade a country from 3 sides with nearly all he’s got and there are no similarities to a certain someone doing it in ‘39?

I guess the Ukrainian journalist who asked Boris the other day was taking the piss too.
Click to expand...

As stated before , we invaded Iraq without justification , what's the difference besides our views of their respective leaders at the time ?

Nobody said Blair and Bush were like Hitler

They killed over 1 million people , the only real difference is the location , Europe
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,579
Evo1883 said:
As stated before , we invaded Iraq without justification , what's the difference besides our views of their respective leaders at the time ?

Nobody said Blair and Bush were like Hitler
Click to expand...

The difference being Putin has openly said he doesn’t recognise Ukraine as a legitimate state.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,580
Evo1883 said:
As stated before , we invaded Iraq without justification , what's the difference besides our views of their respective leaders at the time ?

Nobody said Blair and Bush were like Hitler

They killed over 1 million people
Click to expand...

this is the point. Blair was seduced by a desire to go to war and saw it as a strengthening his reputation. His sickening pictures of shaking hands with troops and then condemning them to death was nauseating

The US saw it as a strategic measure. The notion of Putin rolling through Germany and France and crossing the channel is for the birds
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,581
Brighton Sky Blue said:
The difference being Putin has openly said he doesn’t recognise Ukraine as a legitimate state.
Click to expand...

rather like Mr Adams and Mr Mcguiness then
 
Reactions: TomRad85

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,582
Brighton Sky Blue said:
The difference being Putin has openly said he doesn’t recognise Ukraine as a legitimate state.
Click to expand...

OK there are similarities if you believe putin has invaded Ukraine so that he can then push on to the west and take it ... like Hitler did with Poland to invade Russia
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,583
Grendel said:
this is the point. Blair was seduced by a desire to go to war and saw it as a strengthening his reputation. His sickening pictures of shaking hands with troops and then condemning them to death was nauseating

The US saw it as a strategic measure. The notion of Putin rolling through Germany and France and crossing the channel is for the birds
Click to expand...

Rolling through Moldova and Geirgia
Grendel said:
rather like Mr Adams and Mr Mcguiness then
Click to expand...

Well if you want to go down that route…
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,584
Rolling through Georgia and Moldova is not exactly the same as France and Germany when I last looked at a map
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,585
Evo1883 said:
OK there are similarities if you believe putin has invaded Ukraine so that he can then push on to the west and take it ... like Hitler did with Poland to invade Russia
Click to expand...

Or perhaps when he annexed the Sudetenland so he could dismantle Czechoslovakia later. Do I think Putin has designs on all Europe no-but he clearly would like to restore the ex Soviet states to Russian control.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,586
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Or perhaps when he annexed the Sudetenland so he could dismantle Czechoslovakia later. Do I think Putin has designs on all Europe no-but he clearly would like to restore the ex Soviet states to Russian control.
Click to expand...

He doesn’t and he doesn’t have the resources to do it. It’s laughable the so called left on here are calling for military conflict which will cause death and destruction beyond a scale any of us could imagine as well as economic destruction - it seems “we love a good war” applies more to the Islington pretenders than anyone else
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,587
fernandopartridge said:
You're the one accusing civilian people of appeasement so I'm asking when you're going to get involved?
Click to expand...

Yes and I am. But it is still fucking moronic to trundle out "You going to sign up then" in reply to saying a sovereign nation shouldn't have to surrender all it's freedoms to an evil dictator. It's the 21st century version of hoping they stop at Czechoslovakia.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,588
Very interesting on 5Live this morning. I think it was a former army general and military expert they had on, and it was a very interesting take on things.

He wasn't saying this is exactly what is going to happen, or has happened etc, but what was likely and what could be done to stop Putin.

Can't be arsed to type it all up, but bullet point wise he said....

Russia does use soldiers as cannon fodder and it's army is indeed mainly formed of conscripts. It's what they do

That they are an incompetent army, because of the above.

That the attack on Kharkiv is probably just a warning. Devastate Kharkiv as a warning that this is what will happen to Kyiv. Done as a gesture and show of strength.

That people in his inner circle will say to Putin if they disagree, but that he probably will not listen.

That the only one who could stop this war was President Xi of China. He said there is a dislike between the two countries and that they are very antagonistic towards each other, but that they have a marriage of convenience and they need each other.

This general said that if Xi phone Putin and told him to stop, he would.

He also said that Putin can take Ukraine, but he will not be able to hold it. It's a country of 44m people and it would take 1m Russian troops/police to control it and keep order. He said Putin only has 200,000 troops and therefore that is an impossibility.

It was a very interesting listen.
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,589
Otis said:
Very interesting on 5Live this morning. I think it was a former army general and military expert they had on, and it was a very interesting take on things.

He wasn't saying this is exactly what is going to happen, or has happened etc, but what was likely and what could be done to stop Putin.

Can't be arsed to type it all up, but bullet point wise he said....

Russia does use soldiers as cannon fodder and it's army is indeed mainly formed of conscripts.

That they are an incompetent army, because of the above.

That the attack on Kharkiv is probably just a warning. Devastate Kharkiv as a warning that this is what will happen to Kyiv.

That people in his inner circle will say to Putin if they disagree, but that he probably will not listen.

That the only one who could stop this war was President Xi of China. He said there is a dislike between the two countries and that they are very antagonistic towards each other, but that they have a marriage if convenience and they need each other.

This general said that if Xi phone Putin and told him to stop, he would.

He also said that Putin can take Ukraine, but he will not be able to hold it. It's a country of 44m people and it would take 1m Russian troops/police to control it and keep order. He said Putin only has 200,000 troops and therefore that is an impossibility.

It was a very interesting listen.
Click to expand...
Don't call the Russian army incompetent or someone will rant on about "500,000" soldiers
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,590
Grendel said:
He doesn’t and he doesn’t have the resources to do it. It’s laughable the so called left on here are calling for military conflict which will cause death and destruction beyond a scale any of us could imagine as well as economic destruction - it seems “we love a good war” applies more to the Islington pretenders than anyone else
Click to expand...

I’m not on a political team. I mean we have voices here calling for Ukraine to be allowed to fall on the basis that Putin will then hand it back upon negotiation.

To me that’s just insane
 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,591
Grendel said:
this is the point. Blair was seduced by a desire to go to war
Click to expand...

I think after the Americans came in to the Yugoslav civil war, he thought he owed it to America but found out the Bush administration was a totally different creature to the Clinton administration when it came to war.
 
Reactions: Otis

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,592
David O'Day said:
Don't call the Russian army incompetent or someone will rant on about "500,000" soldiers
Click to expand...

Very strange you are , more argumentative than a teenage girl
 
Reactions: TomRad85

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,593
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Was there any other way to deal with a madman in 1939 than go to war with him?
Click to expand...
We had a treaty with Poland.

shmmeee said:
So there’s no point to maintaining a nuclear defence then? It serves no job as it’s not a deterrent? Or rather we should rebuild the empire because we’ve got nukes and therefore can do what we like?

He’s either going to use them or he’s not. You’re giving him free reign to invade anywhere he wants. What does somewhere being NATO matter he’d just nuke us then too?

If we’ve got a madman who will end the world that horse has already bolted, you’re just putting off the inevitable.
Click to expand...
So do you think he won't use them if we call his bluff, put NATO planes in the area, and bomb his ground forces?
He's a madman allright - so give him the reason to launch his birds.
 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,594
Copy and pasta from wiki


In the initial stage of the Yugoslav crisis and the breakup of Yugoslavia at the end of the Cold War the United States were strong advocates of Yugoslav integrity. At the same time, Washington believed the crisis was an issue for Europe to resolve. Failure of the European Community and subsequently the European Union to deal with the Yugoslav Wars led to significant American involvement in the region. In this process Presidency of Bill Clinton provided security guarantees and efforts for smaller and weaker former Yugoslav republics of Bosnia and Herzegovina and North Macedonia. This led to some frictions with Croatia and significant one with the Serbia and Montenegro (which US rejected to recognize as the sole successor to Socialist Yugoslavia) and Bosnian Serbs which escalated in 1995 Operation Deliberate Force and 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and lasted all up until the overthrow of Slobodan Milošević.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,595
RegTheDonk said:
We had a treaty with Poland.
Click to expand...

So if we didn’t we’d sit and wait for him to invade somewhere we had a treaty?
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,596
Grendel said:
He doesn’t and he doesn’t have the resources to do it. It’s laughable the so called left on here are calling for military conflict which will cause death and destruction beyond a scale any of us could imagine as well as economic destruction - it seems “we love a good war” applies more to the Islington pretenders than anyone else
Click to expand...

That's funny, because a just a short while ago I linked to an article from someone who's made a career out of studying Putin, and she, like others, pointed out that Putin is very much driven by the idea of expanding Russia into its former territories.

But of course, what does she know. I'd much rather trust your single sentence "my opinion is fact" approach.

Maybe you can help, I linked to it again - can you let us know why she's got it all wrong?

Talking about the left/right split, it's remarkable how many on the hard right, particularly in the States, have become Putin apologists. Maybe that's because Hitler and Putin are not that dissimilar in their views.

‘Yes, He Would’: Fiona Hill on Putin and Nukes

Putin is trying to take down the entire world order, the veteran Russia watcher said in an interview. But there are ways even ordinary Americans can fight back.
www.politico.com
 
Reactions: GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,597
My final thought on this whole thing as I can't be arsed arguing these days....


I hope Ukraine pull it out the bag , I don't think they will , I can't see where NATO help them directly without them invading or attacking a NATO country first ..

That's me done with it , crack on
 
Reactions: Grendel and RegTheDonk

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,598
Just on the no-fly zone, an interesting opinion expressed on Radio 4 (aka Radio War) today.

Didn't catch the name, but suspect it was the Defence Minister, saying that a no fly zone wouldn't be in Ukraine's best interests at the moment anyway.

The theory is that in daytime at least, Ukraine hand held air defences are stopping Russia getting air superiority, and costing them aircraft and pilots, whilst Ukrainian drones are inflicting losses on Russian forces. (In a no fly zone, no Russian planes, but also no Ukrainian drones).

Additionally, no fly zones won't stop missiles or artillery, which is primarily what's being used against cities.

I don't know, it made some sense but then the fact that Ukraine is calling for a no fly zone perhaps gives the lie to it...
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,599
RegTheDonk said:
We had a treaty with Poland.
Click to expand...
We have a treaty with Ukraine.
 

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,600
Brighton Sky Blue said:
So if we didn’t we’d sit and wait for him to invade somewhere we had a treaty?
Click to expand...
He'd already marched into Czechoslovakia. We ignored that.
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,601
Regardless of opinions, if you want to do more than just argue about Ukraine, you can donate to the humanitarian efforts here.

Donate to Help Ukraine Emergency Appeal, organized by Anna Dezyk

Millions of people in Ukraine are facing an imminent humanitarian crisis. They are in urgen… Anna Dezyk needs your support for Help Ukraine Emergency Appeal
www.gofundme.com

(with apologies for also having a thread linking to this elsewhere)
 
Reactions: Sick Boy, chiefdave, RegTheDonk and 1 other person
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,602
duffer said:
Just on the no-fly zone, an interesting opinion expressed on Radio 4 (aka Radio War) today.

Didn't catch the name, but suspect it was the Defence Minister, saying that a no fly zone wouldn't be in Ukraine's best interests at the moment anyway.

The theory is that in daytime at least, Ukraine hand held air defences are stopping Russia getting air superiority, and costing them aircraft and pilots, whilst Ukrainian drones are inflicting losses on Russian forces. (In a no fly zone, no Russian planes, but also no Ukrainian drones).

Additionally, no fly zones won't stop missiles or artillery, which is primarily what's being used against cities.

I don't know, it made some sense but then the fact that Ukraine is calling for a no fly zone perhaps gives the lie to it...
Click to expand...

Yes it was Ben Wallace and the reasons given are correct but the main reason for not enforcing a no fly zone is it would start WW3 in the same way as if NATO started helping Ukraine
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve and Otis

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,603
skybluetony176 said:
We have a treaty with Ukraine.
Click to expand...
Sorry, treaty perhaps the wrong word then? We guaranteed Poland's protection then.
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,604
PVA said:
Yes it was Ben Wallace and the reasons given are correct but the main reason for not enforcing a no fly zone is it would start WW3 in the same way as if NATO started helping Ukraine
Click to expand...

Well we kind of are helping Ukraine, but I get the point.

My poorly formed idea, we should take the 'Russian' approach of doing everything possible to fuck up Putin, including covert sabotage of infrastructure, cyber warfare, unattributable assasinations of his supporters or him directly if possible, sink the odd super yacht, secretly fund any and all internal opposition, basically whatever we can do to fuck him and his mates up whilst keeping it vaguely deniable basically.

The cold war on steroids, gloves off, in essence, but just under the level that could trigger a war. I suspect (or at least hope) that some of this is already happening.
 
Reactions: Jagmannn and CCFCSteve
D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,605
duffer said:
Just on the no-fly zone, an interesting opinion expressed on Radio 4 (aka Radio War) today.

Didn't catch the name, but suspect it was the Defence Minister, saying that a no fly zone wouldn't be in Ukraine's best interests at the moment anyway.

The theory is that in daytime at least, Ukraine hand held air defences are stopping Russia getting air superiority, and costing them aircraft and pilots, whilst Ukrainian drones are inflicting losses on Russian forces. (In a no fly zone, no Russian planes, but also no Ukrainian drones).

Additionally, no fly zones won't stop missiles or artillery, which is primarily what's being used against cities.

I don't know, it made some sense but then the fact that Ukraine is calling for a no fly zone perhaps gives the lie to it...
Click to expand...
If Ben Wallace is the Minister you are referring to I have to say that he does come across as very unusual, inasmuch as he seems to be a competent and intelligent Government Minister. How he can work with Liz Truss I can't fathom.
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve and duffer
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,606
Deleted member 9744 said:
If Ben Wallace is the Minister you are referring to I have to say that he does come across as very unusual, inasmuch as he seems to be a competent and intelligent Government Minister. How he can work with Liz Truss I can't fathom.
Click to expand...

I suppose that given he served in the army he has some background, experience and knowledge relevant to his role, rather than given any old job regardless of suitability like the rest of the cabinet (eg a foreign secretary who can't read a map or a culture Secretary who doesn't know what youtube is)
 
Reactions: duffer and Deleted member 9744

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,607
Just waiting for Boris to say he got Brexit done. What a c**t.
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,608
PVA said:
I suppose that given he served in the army he has some background, experience and knowledge relevant to his role, rather than given any old job regardless of suitability like the rest of the cabinet (eg a foreign secretary who can't read a map or a culture Secretary who doesn't know what youtube is)
Click to expand...

Yes, it has also struck me that Ukraine elected a comedian who turned out to be a leader, whereas we elected a comedian who turned out to be a comedian.
 
Reactions: MusicDating, Finham, Otis and 1 other person

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,609
tisza said:
News here has been that he has shut himself away in some hideout in the Urals for much of the past 12 months surrounded by a large bodyguard unit. Other unconfirmed intelligence reports are that he is turning on those closest to him and throwing his toys out the pram (that's a paraphrase) because things aren't going to plan.
Click to expand...
Once again, the parallels with Hitler are uncanny.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 2, 2022
  • #1,610
Grendel said:
Also using dramatic analogues is rather childish. We defeated Hitler partly as we sucked ionti a brutal dictator who slaughtered millions of his own oriole did we not?
Click to expand...
We did, but much of that was actually down to Germany.

Molotov met with Hitler and concluded he could not be trusted, and so Russia did not support Germany. Hitler then effectively threw a tantrum and decided to invade Russia, thus overstretching his forces and leaving him fighting two fronts. So basically it became we had a common enemy.
 
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