skyblueelephant76
Well-Known Member
Just out of interest, have you ever been to Ukraine?
Just out of interest, have you ever been to Ukraine?A small element? It’s a state built on extremism. It’s a corrupt country which has appalling human rights. Why do you actually care about these people? It’s childlike binary arguments again I see.
Well if Russia fucked off out of a sovereign state then nobody else would die and there would be peace.I’ve said I want talks for a peace solution. Do you?
Not really. In wartime there was massive restrictions on reporting in the UK and on how it could be reported. It's what happens in war for reasons of both morale and intelligence.The comparison between this and the UK media is ridiculous.
never seen anyone contradict themselves in the same sentence before.He isn’t - he has never had any intention of regaining former USSR territory - he has always viewed Ukraine as Russian - as many of the Russian public do
Thanks for that insight but he is referring to the present day UK media and the current government.Not really. In wartime there was massive restrictions on reporting in the UK and on how it could be reported. It's what happens in war for reasons of both morale and intelligence.
never seen anyone contradict themselves in the same sentence before.
Doesn't want to regain any former USSR territory apart from the bits that he does.
Not really. In wartime there was massive restrictions on reporting in the UK and on how it could be reported. It's what happens in war for reasons of both morale and intelligence.
But a lot of what happened to press in Ukraine pre war was either a hangover from previous Russian friendly presidents, especially true under Kuchma who closed down many opposition favouring outlets and really ramped up surveillance and intimidation on “unfriendly” journalists. In the period between Russia invading the Donbas and annexing Crimea some of the murders of journalists in Ukraine were committed by Russian agents. Look up the case of Pavel Sheremet for example. These incidents all add to Ukraines score on the press freedom index so can give a false impression that it’s all on the shoulders of the current government. I’m not saying it’s perfect but the fact is as soon as a pro European government came into power press freedom started improving, the war has obviously set that back but that’s only to be expected. There was never an overnight fix to hangovers from the era of the USSR and the period that followed of pro Russian government. You’re talking about a mindset that was ingrained into generations, it’s very disingenuous to suggest addressing that isn’t going to take generational changes. I think you’re firstly failing to understand the history of Ukraine and secondly finding it too easy to swallow the kind of rhetoric you’d expect to see from far right pro Russian types on the western stage.Thanks for that insight but he is referring to the present day UK media and the current government.
It literally starts with “Or even non wartime”.
What? You were talking about the current UK government.But a lot of what happened to press in Ukraine pre war was either a hangover from previous Russian friendly presidents, especially true under Kuchma who closed down many opposition favouring outlets and really ramped up surveillance and intimidation on “unfriendly” journalists. In the period between Russia invading the Donbas and annexing Crimea some of the murders of journalists in Ukraine were committed by Russian agents. Look up the case of Pavel Sheremet for example. These incidents all add to Ukraines score on the press freedom index so can give a false impression that it’s all on the shoulders of the current government. I’m not saying it’s perfect but the fact is as soon as a pro European government came into power press freedom started improving, the war has obviously set that back but that’s only to be expected. There was never an overnight fix to hangovers from the era of the USSR and the period that followed of pro Russian government. You’re talking about a mindset that was ingrained into generations, it’s very disingenuous to suggest addressing that isn’t going to take generational changes. I think you’re firstly failing to understand the history of Ukraine and secondly finding it too easy to swallow the kind of rhetoric you’d expect to see from far right pro Russian types on the western stage.
And now I’m talking about the Ukrainian government. Keep up.What? You were talking about the current UK government.
I’d rather listen to actual Ukrainian journalists on this one, thanks.Sorry sickboy was it too much information for you so you had no choice but to find it funny.
Here’s some more for you. In the reporter’s without borders poll when Kuchma left power Ukraine was 132nd in their freedom index, they’re now 90th IIRC. Ironically if you look into the details of that although their position hasn’t changed during the attempted all out invasion by Russia Ukraines score has marginally improved. So in fact press freedom is still improving despite the wartime footing they’re currently on. Your freedom of press line doesn’t hold up well against independent facts. Work still to do for certain but heading in the right direction. For context Russia is 164 in the index. Maybe you should be more concerned about Russia if freedom of press is your yardstick.
You do know that listening to Ukrainian Journalists and paying attention to facts from an independent organisation such as Reporters Without Borders don’t have to be mutually exclusive. It is possible to look at the bigger picture and form a balanced view considering all the facts not just a narrow doctrine that suits.I’d rather listen to actual Ukrainian journalists on this one, thanks.
I’d rather listen to actual Ukrainian journalists on this one, thanks.
They’d automatically dropped 80+ places on the only reliable measurement of press freedom. It wouldn’t just be press freedom though. It would also include freedom to internet access to outside sources. Free in Ukraine, suppressed in Russia. Unless you live near the border of a neighbouring country where internet access isn’t restricted and you can get a 4g from a non Russian supplier.Thanks, but that's not very honest. You're not actually listening to Ukrainian journalists, are you?
You're trying to dig out examples of press suppression but completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Ukrainians (which would presumably include most journalists), do not want to live under Putin's rule. If you were genuinely listening, that would be ringing in your ears.
Again, if it's a free press that really bothers you, would there be more free press in Ukraine under Putin's rule?
Simple question.
No of course not and I've never said or claimed there would be. I'd rather listen to what they're saying than a regurgitated online article on a football forum.Thanks, but that's not very honest. You're not actually listening to Ukrainian journalists, are you?
You're trying to dig out examples of press suppression but completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Ukrainians (which would presumably include most journalists), do not want to live under Putin's rule. If you were genuinely listening, that would be ringing in your ears.
Again, if it's a free press that really bothers you, would there be more free press in Ukraine under Putin's rule?
Simple question.
But you’re using press freedom as a judgement on Ukraine and Ukraine alone as a reasoning as to why we shouldn’t be involved. The alternative is to let a country with one of the worst track records in the world on press freedom crack on. It was a shit argument from the outset. The kind you see MAGA republicans use in congress to block aid to Ukraine. That’s the company you’re keeping by choosing this one issue from a very narrow viewpoint that ignores the bigger picture.No of course not and I've never said or claimed there would be. I'd rather listen to what they're saying than a regurgitated online article on a football forum.
Sorry it’s hard to take someone seriously who just compared the situation with the Ukrainian press to that of the UK government and media.But you’re using press freedom as a judgement on Ukraine and Ukraine alone as a reasoning as to why we shouldn’t be involved. The alternative is to let a country with one of the worst track records in the world on press freedom crack on. It was a shit argument from the outset. The kind you see MAGA republicans use in congress to block aid to Ukraine. That’s the company you’re keeping by choosing this one issue from a very narrow viewpoint that ignores the bigger picture.
Not really!!Sorry it’s hard to take someone seriously who just compared the situation with the Ukrainian press to that of the UK government and media.
Okay. Firstly I didn’t compare our government and media to Ukraine. I just pointed out that we’re not exactly free of issues ourselves. Completely different, you’re adding your own context. You dismissed that and then rather poetically half an our later a story broke about press intimidation in the UK from authorities. If I was going to make a direct comparison I’d point out that our rating on press freedom is nearer to Ukraines than Ukrainians is to Russias. Ironically your adopted country of Italy is ranked even nearer to Ukraine again on press freedom than us. Despite your knew found very selective concern about press freedom you’re ignoring a lot of facts from trusted sources because it doesn’t suit your narrative. If you were being cynical you could be forgiven for believing that you’re being disingenuous.Sorry it’s hard to take someone seriously who just compared the situation with the Ukrainian press to that of the UK government and media.
The Economist: Do you stand by what you said about possibly sending ground troops to Ukraine?
Emmanuel Macron: Absolutely. As I said, I’m not ruling anything out, because we are facing someone who is not ruling anything out. We have undoubtedly been too hesitant by defining the limits of our action to someone who no longer has any and who is the aggressor! Our capacity is to be credible, to continue to help, to give Ukraine the means to resist. But our credibility also depends on a capacity to deter by not giving full visibility as to what we will or will not do. Otherwise we weaken ourselves, which is the framework within which we have been operating until now. In fact, many countries said that in the weeks that followed that they understood our approach, that they agreed with our position and that this position was a good thing. I have a clear strategic objective: Russia cannot win in Ukraine. If Russia wins in Ukraine, there will be no security in Europe. Who can pretend that Russia will stop there? What security will there be for the other neighbouring countries, Moldova, Romania, Poland, Lithuania and the others? And behind that, what credibility for Europeans who would have spent billions, said that the survival of the continent was at stake and not have given themselves the means to stop Russia? So yes, we mustn’t rule anything out because our objective is that Russia must never be able to win in Ukraine.
The Economist: Do you stand by what you said about possibly sending ground troops to Ukraine?
Emmanuel Macron: Absolutely. As I said, I’m not ruling anything out, because we are facing someone who is not ruling anything out. We have undoubtedly been too hesitant by defining the limits of our action to someone who no longer has any and who is the aggressor! Our capacity is to be credible, to continue to help, to give Ukraine the means to resist. But our credibility also depends on a capacity to deter by not giving full visibility as to what we will or will not do. Otherwise we weaken ourselves, which is the framework within which we have been operating until now. In fact, many countries said that in the weeks that followed that they understood our approach, that they agreed with our position and that this position was a good thing. I have a clear strategic objective: Russia cannot win in Ukraine. If Russia wins in Ukraine, there will be no security in Europe. Who can pretend that Russia will stop there? What security will there be for the other neighbouring countries, Moldova, Romania, Poland, Lithuania and the others? And behind that, what credibility for Europeans who would have spent billions, said that the survival of the continent was at stake and not have given themselves the means to stop Russia? So yes, we mustn’t rule anything out because our objective is that Russia must never be able to win in Ukraine.
The Russians are in retreat.
Well yeah, they probably would be if another nation fully committed troops and equipment to the war.
And before you say it, no I'm not saying I want France to enter the war.
Who should fully commit then?
I wonder if Macron will get the punchbag out again for a photoshoot?I would imagine Putin and his cronies are quaking in their boots now the little Emperor is getting involved
Truly peace in our time. The Russians are in retreat.
I thought that was supposed to happen with the counter-offensive?The west should fully commit to properly equipping Ukraine, like they were previously - which enabled Ukraine to push Russia right back to the border in places. That was the critical time, that was the time that Ukraine could have defeated Russia.
I wonder if Macron will get the punchbag out again for a photoshoot?
I thought that was supposed to have with the counter-offensive?
Thats not a very nice thing to say about his wife. I know shes knocking on a bit but bloody hell.I wonder if Macron will get the punchbag out again for a photoshoot?
Thats not a very nice thing to say about his wife. I know shes knocking on a bit but bloody hell.
You really are a child in a adult body
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