USSR invades Ukraine. (14 Viewers)

fernandopartridge said:

Went did you go to Ukraine?

Are you saying that the IRA should have had international support?

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I’ve not went to Ukraine. I have eyes and ears, there’s this thing called TV that has a program called the news. I have neighbours who have taken in a Ukrainian family minus the father who stayed to fight despite having an out, the eldest son went back to Ukraine to join the army in the spring as soon as he was old enough. I have a cousin who has been to Ukraine numerous times, months at a time with a charity called Global Augmentation that are running food, medicine etc to the areas near the front and bringing back people, animals, you name it back as the Ukrainians regain land back from Russian. My brother in law has been to Ukraine more times than I can remember delivering everything from food, medicine, vehicles, plant and machinery. So I have been privy to first hand accounts from the safe areas to just about as near to the action as a non soldier can get. Although even though my cousin was stays in a hotel well back from the frontline it’s used almost exclusively by press and charity workers but the people you think we should just let crack on with it deliberately targeted it on a regular basis.

And as someone else has already pointed out the IRA had international support as did the early freedom fighters.

PVA said:

What is the quickest way to bring it to the correct end?

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Get round a table and negotiate, which will inevitably mean loosing some land to Russia, probably the areas where the locals are Russian anyway, but its the only way to stop the killing.

And its inevitably going to happen in the end anyway.

The longer we supply Ukraine with weapons the longer the killing continues with no chance of success. The west is running out of ammunition while Russia has turned its amo factories to maximum output and is getting stronger everyday.

skybluetony176 said:

I’ve not went to Ukraine. I have eyes and ears, there’s this thing called TV that has a program called the news. I have neighbours who have taken in a Ukrainian family minus the father who stayed to fight despite having an out, the eldest son went back to Ukraine to join the army in the spring as soon as he was old enough. I have a cousin who has been to Ukraine numerous times, months at a time with a charity called Global Augmentation that are running food, medicine etc to the areas near the front and bringing back people, animals, you name it back as the Ukrainians regain land back from Russian. My brother in law has been to Ukraine more times than I can remember delivering everything from food, medicine, vehicles, plant and machinery. So I have been privy to first hand accounts from the safe areas to just about as near to the action as a non soldier can get. Although even though my cousin was stays in a hotel well back from the frontline it’s used almost exclusively by press and charity workers but the people you think we should just let crack on with it deliberately targeted it on a regular basis.

And as someone else has already pointed out the IRA had international support as did the early freedom fighters.

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I’m sure Astute operates your account these days

fatso said:

Get round a table and negotiate, which will inevitably mean loosing some land to Russia, probably the areas where the locals are Russian anyway, but its the only way to stop the killing.

And its inevitably going to happen in the end anyway.

The longer we supply Ukraine with weapons the longer the killing continues with no chance of success. The west is running out of ammunition while Russia has turned its amo factories to maximum output and is getting stronger everyday.

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Sorry that’s a fool’s errand. Putin is a madman, there’s no appeasing him. It may bring a temporary settlement but Putin will take that as a victory, the West as a pushover and a green light to do the same in other countries such as Georgia and Moldova, they already have troops in Moldova and have essentially annexed the eastern part of the country and Putin wants a corridor at the very least to it whether that’s now or in the future and that means Ukraine giving up its coastline. Which just ain’t going to happen. A negotiated ceasefire is the best you could achieve right now and that would only be so Russia can lick its wounds and regroup ahead of round 2. Ukraine needs to beat Russia so it can fortify its legitimate borders so Russia has no way of doing this again. If that also means Ukraine joins the EU and/or NATO then so be it.

You’re suggesting making all the same mistakes we made at the start of WW2. It didn’t work then and if anything there’s even less chance of it working now.

PVA said:

Ukraine's army was tiny in 2014, with little equipment, no training, rampant corruption.

A smaller version of Russia's army basically.

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I believe he was referring to the civillian population not taking it lying down.

fernandopartridge said:

Are you saying that the IRA should have had international support?

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The double standards and hypocrisy have already been trotted out for this valid comparison.
I’d also imagine why other countries like India turn off when you have countries like Britain lecturing them without irony.

skybluetony176 said:

Sorry that’s a fool’s errand. Putin is a madman, there’s no appeasing him. It may bring a temporary settlement but Putin will take that as a victory, the West as a pushover and a green light to do the same in other countries such as Georgia and Moldova, they already have troops in Moldova and have essentially annexed the eastern part of the country and Putin wants a corridor at the very least to it whether that’s now or in the future and that means Ukraine giving up its coastline. Which just ain’t going to happen. A negotiated ceasefire is the best you could achieve right now and that would only be so Russia can lick its wounds and regroup ahead of round 2. Ukraine needs to beat Russia so it can fortify its legitimate borders so Russia has no way of doing this again. If that also means Ukraine joins the EU and/or NATO then so be it.

You’re suggesting making all the same mistakes we made at the start of WW2. It didn’t work then and if anything there’s even less chance of it working now.

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We're well on our way to WW3 as it is, a blind man can see that continuing down the road were on is crazy.
This has nothing to do with the appeasement of the 1930's,

you have to understand than nato expansionist policy has led to this, it's the same situation as the Cuban missile crisis, only this time its nato who is seeking to park missiles on Russias border!

Seriously what did you expect Putin to do?

And what's even more crazy is that we were told it was coming, even when there was still time to prevent it!

fatso said:

We're well on our way to WW3 as it is, a blind man can see that continuing down the road were on is crazy.
This has nothing to do with the appeasement of the 1930's,

you have to understand than nato expansionist policy has led to this, it's the same situation as the Cuban missile crisis, only this time its nato who is seeking to park missiles on Russias border!

Seriously what did you expect Putin to do?

And what's even more crazy is that we were told it was coming, even when there was still time to prevent it!

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Let’s not forget there are also a lot of powerful and emerging countries around the world who don’t think America are the “good guys” looking for an excuse to kick off and change the global balance of power.

It's not NATO's fault ffs

Sick Boy said:

Let’s not forget there are also a lot of powerful and emerging countries around the world who don’t think America are the “good guys” looking for an excuse to kick off and change the global balance of power.

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Obama and the removal of an elected president of Ukraine in 2014 (I’m sure The Tonester will get wiki out and say he’s a wicked man who is third cousin removed met once) but he was democratically elected and then removed through US influence so a pro western leader could be inserted

Sick Boy said:

Let’s not forget there are also a lot of powerful and emerging countries around the world who don’t think America are the “good guys” looking for an excuse to kick off and change the global balance of power.

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Exactly, I think we're seeing the beginnings of the end of the USA as the worlds leading superpower.

Russia, China the whole Middle East and possibly India are coming together to replace America.

The American debt levels and future liabilities are now unsustainable they are spending a trillion dollars a year on interest payments alone. Their economy is bankrupt.

The only way America can sustain its power and lose its debt is a major global war.
That's exactly how Hitler brought Germany out of the depression caused (in part) by the crippling financial cost of WW1 reparations.

PVA said:

It's not NATO's fault ffs

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Seriously mate, you need to stop watching BBC news and educate yourself.

Putin isn't the only crazy world leader out there. America is rotten to the core.

fatso said:

Seriously mate, you need to stop watching BBC news and educate yourself.

Putin isn't the only crazy world leader out there. America is rotten to the core.

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fatso said:

Seriously mate, you need to stop watching BBC news and educate yourself.

Putin isn't the only crazy world leader out there. America is rotten to the core.

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I don't watch BBC news, in fact I don't watch any news!

But blaming this on anyone other than Putin is just absurd.

fatso said:

Exactly, I think we're seeing the beginnings of the end of the USA as the worlds leading superpower.

Russia, China the whole Middle East and possibly India are coming together to replace America.

The American debt levels and future liabilities are now unsustainable they are spending a trillion dollars a year on interest payments alone. Their economy is bankrupt.

The only way America can sustain its power and lose its debt is a major global war.
That's exactly how Hitler brought Germany out of the depression caused (in part) by the crippling financial cost of WW1 reparations.

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What you’re describing is what Russia is doing with your comparison to Nazi Germany. And Hitler in reality never brought Germany out of the depression. Rationing never ended even pre war and basic rates in pay never increased from depression levels. Hitler took Germany out of the depression is a myth. Which is why he, like Russia are now doing, turned to expansion.

fatso said:

Exactly, I think we're seeing the beginnings of the end of the USA as the worlds leading superpower.

Russia, China the whole Middle East and possibly India are coming together to replace America.

The American debt levels and future liabilities are now unsustainable they are spending a trillion dollars a year on interest payments alone. Their economy is bankrupt.

The only way America can sustain its power and lose its debt is a major global war.
That's exactly how Hitler brought Germany out of the depression caused (in part) by the crippling financial cost of WW1 reparations.

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Agree with some of the above, certainly the bit about USA debt levels and interest payments. most seem oblivious to this but it’s a major problem and I’m struggling to how this ever gets resolved…keep printing cash and debasing the currency presumably

But countries like Russia are not in any position to replace them and even China, who everyone predicted would replace US as the largest global economy, is having some major problems currently (look at their housing/construction market, youth unemployment etc). I wouldn’t be surprised if the dollar is replaced as main global reserve currency in the not too distant future though

However, I’m not sure how a global war really resolves USA debt problem. I do see how supporting Ukraine helps them weaken Russia (not sure if this is necessary, the country’s a shitshow), deters China from invading Taiwan and also helps make other countries more reliant on their own gas and oil supplies though

ps the prospect of trump or Biden again as next president should concern everyone

fatso said:

Seriously mate, you need to stop watching BBC news and educate yourself.

Putin isn't the only crazy world leader out there. America is rotten to the core.

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I see this has the approval of Mr 'Russia was provoked into invading'

Brighton Sky Blue said:

I see this has the approval of Mr 'Russia was provoked into invading'

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At least some are now engaging in serious discussion and not indulging in nonsense sound bytes

fatso said:

Seriously mate, you need to stop watching BBC news and educate yourself.

Putin isn't the only crazy world leader out there. America is rotten to the core.

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The amount of stuff that goes on there that gets ignored and/or accepted wouldn’t happen if it was in another part of the world.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

I see this has the approval of Mr 'Russia was provoked into invading'

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Not sure I'll be rushing to agree with geopolitical analysis from the guy who believes the moon landing was fake

Grendel said:

At least some are now engaging in serious discussion and not indulging in nonsense sound bytes

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I think you complaining about people indulging in nonsense sound bytes is the most ironic thing I have read on here.

Deleted member 9744 said:

I think you complaining about people indulging in nonsense sound bytes is the most ironic thing I have read on here.

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I personally am glad that other people are starting to see through this nonsense and not just drooling over pro US propaganda

At least now perhaps people can discuss the issues - or we could have a graph on Kasey Palmer again

fatso said:

Seriously mate, you need to stop watching BBC news and educate yourself.

Putin isn't the only crazy world leader out there. America is rotten to the core.

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Ahhh! The old my enemies enemy is my friend mentality. Suddenly it becomes so clear.

Grendel said:

At least some are now engaging in serious discussion and not indulging in nonsense sound bytes

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There has been plenty of serious discussion through this thread while you've been rocking in the corner blaming everyone but Putin.

The only difference is now you've found a few people with the same opinion.

Sick Boy said:

The amount of stuff that goes on there that gets ignored and/or accepted wouldn’t happen if it was in another part of the world.

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The BBC is the most cynically viewed news platform in the country. The right thinks it’s a woke lefty mouthpiece and the left thinks it does nothing but pander to the extremes of the right because it’s afraid of its own shadow. You’re not describing the reality of how the BBC is viewed and trusted.

PVA said:

There has been plenty of serious discussion through this thread while you've been rocking in the corner blaming everyone but Putin.

The only difference is now you've found a few people with the same opinion.

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No there has been a collective drooling over western media bias with you being the chief culprit

SBT said:

Not sure I'll be rushing to agree with geopolitical analysis from the guy who believes the moon landing was fake

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Grendel said:

No there has been a collective drooling over western media bias with you being the chief culprit

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And now there's a few to drool over Russian propaganda with you.

PVA said:

And now there's a few to drool over Russian propaganda with you.

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Any linking I’ve provided has been from western sources challenging motives of this war

Since when did being pro Ukraine mean that you’re pro US? Just more mindless bollocks.

skybluetony176 said:

The BBC is the most cynically viewed news platform in the country. The right thinks it’s a woke lefty mouthpiece and the left thinks it does nothing but pander to the extremes of the right because it’s afraid of its own shadow. You’re not describing the reality of how the BBC is viewed and trusted.

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I’m talking about America.

Grendel said:

At least some are now engaging in serious discussion and not indulging in nonsense sound bytes

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You're talking to someone who thinks Bush and Blair should have been tried in the Hague

Brighton Sky Blue said:

You're talking to someone who thinks Bush and Blair should have been tried in the Hague

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Which is straight out of the sixth form debating society sound byte playbook

Grendel said:

I personally am glad that other people are starting to see through this nonsense and not just drooling over pro US propaganda

At least now perhaps people can discuss the issues - or we could have a graph on Kasey Palmer again

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You are right that some people are too simplistic in seeing it all in terms of goodies and baddies. However, it is ironic seeing you complain rightly about some peoples' simplistic views of the war and then you come out with your own simplistic comments.

Let's be clear there are no simple solutions in Ukraine and there are massive risks, not just to the people of Ukraine and Russia but the world more generally. Contrary to what you say it is important to us and we have a clear interest. We can't just ignore it and say we aren't interested and don't care. For one thing we have to care on a humanitarian level. For another, again in contrast to what you say, we do have a clear strategic interest for a number of geopolitical reasons and not least world food security.

You also claimed to have a unique insight into how the whole Russian population feels. Believe it or not people in Russia are similar to every other population in the world. They don't all feel the same and there are shades of opinion and views that are as different as yours and mine even. Of course in a totalitarian state people aren't able to express these views openly.

Your argument that people are simplistic in seeing goodies and baddies really loses all credibility when you then profess that the British Empire was an entirely positive thing. Because it has the word British in it, it must be good eh? We're the goodies after all aren't we? and always have been?

The British Empire was founded on the slave trade with some 3.5 million people forcibly taken from Africa and over half a million of those people died on route. We plundered these countries natural resources and people and ruled over them with the arrogance of view that they were too savage to rule themselves.

Maybe we aren't always the goodies. Your Government is watering down measures about climate change, that will have a far more devasting effect on the world than the things you complain about the people in Ukraine have done. In the meantime your Government want to deport people to Africa, the continent from where we extracted slaves when it suited our purpose. Yes Russia, Ukraine and the US aren't perfect but neither are we.

Grendel said:

Which is straight out of the sixth form debating society sound byte playbook

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Which book is focusing more on Zelensky's facial hair than Putin's war crimes out of?

A Child's Guide to Tankies?