Cluster shells, different to bombs, but glad, Russia have been using cluster shells and bombs since a week into the war, the cluster munitions will make up for lack of artillery shells the world currently has.I see the Americans are sending cluster bombs over now, yet more indiscriminate killing then.
It’s a difficult one. On one hand they’re very effective but also like you point out they remain live after the war has ended. Worth pointing out though that so do the miles upon miles of mines that Russia has been planting all winter in defensive preparation which is as I understand it is why they’re being sent there in the first place. Cluster bombs are very effective at clearing minefields.I see the Americans are sending cluster bombs over now, yet more indiscriminate killing then.
They’re horrific full stop and it’ll be innocent people, both Ukrainians and Russians, who will be killed by them. They’re also being sent by a country that has no issues with invading other countries in recent times and, according to what I know, the only country to ever have used a nuclear bomb.It’s a difficult one. On one hand they’re very effective but also like you point out they remain live after the war has ended. Worth pointing out though that so do the miles upon miles of mines that Russia has been planting all winter in defensive preparation which is as I understand it is why they’re being sent there in the first place. Cluster bombs are very effective at clearing minefields.
Also worth pointing out the difference between Ukraine using them in open warfare to clear mines and attack an invading force’s positions and someone like Israel using them in the most densely populated areas in the world. Which is where most post ceasefire injuries occur from cluster bombs when children go playing in bomb sites on the West Bank or Gaza.
Well Russia shouldn’t have invaded then should they? Stop being a putin cock sucker, and get behind Ukraine, I mean after all they have just turned the west biggest enemy into a military with less power than the uk alone, for all I care send Ukraine anything they want, fair game.They’re horrific full stop and it’ll be innocent people, both Ukrainians and Russians, who will be killed by them. They’re also being sent by a country that has no issues with invading other countries in recent times and, according to what I know, the only country to ever have used a nuclear bomb.
There are clearly jitters about the lack of progress despite what gets said in the press otherwise they probably wouldn’t be sending them.
As I’ve said before, the only place the war is going to end is around the negotiating table, it’s a war neither side is going to win.
You're a fucking idiot.Well Russia shouldn’t have invaded then should they? Stop being a putin cock sucker, and get behind Ukraine, I mean after all they have just turned the west biggest enemy into a military with less power than the uk alone, for all I care send Ukraine anything they want, fair game.
Bla bla bla, Ukraine are a defending country, they should sit down and negotiate when they’re ready, I bet you would been crying for Churchill to negotiate with hitler back then. I think the term is “You’re a fucking coward”You're a fucking idiot.
Yeah because wanting to avoid suffering death and suffering makes someone a coward. I actually have firsthand experience of the suffering around the situation going back to events in 2014, whereas you're clearly just immature and treating it like one of your computer games.Bla bla bla, Ukraine are a defending country, they should sit down and negotiate when they’re ready, I bet you would been crying for Churchill to negotiate with hitler back then. I think the term is “You’re a fucking coward”
Don’t cry sy, I’m literally in the border with UkraineYeah because wanting to avoid suffering death and suffering makes someone a coward. I actually have firsthand experience of the suffering around the situation going back to events in 2014, whereas you're clearly just immature and treating it like one of your computer games.
Yeah because wanting to avoid suffering death and suffering makes someone a coward. I actually have firsthand experience of the suffering around the situation going back to events in 2014, whereas you're clearly just immature and treating it like one of your computer games.
Just some entertainment for you.Yeah because wanting to avoid suffering death and suffering makes someone a coward. I actually have firsthand experience of the suffering around the situation going back to events in 2014, whereas you're clearly just immature and treating it like one of your computer games.
The point is, is that neither side is will likely to win the war, IMO, so it’s essentially going to be years of innocent people going to their deaths on both sides. It’ll be inevitable that it’ll end in negotiations.Classic. It’s like Grendel from the start of the thread.
Supporting the Ukranians fight off a force that is planning their annihilation is the only route to minimise suffering. There’s no moral high ground in caping for Russia under the guise of peace.
The point is, is that neither side is will likely to win the war, IMO, so it’s essentially going to be years of innocent people going to their deaths on both sides. It’ll be inevitable that it’ll end in negotiations.
It’s pretty crass laughing at a post talking about personal experiences of the situation too, BTW.
It wasn't referencing everyone. Personally, I think Putin is a c**t and i'd like Russia out of Ukraine but I don't see how either side is going to win. Most of the Russians going to fight are probably just young and scared and don't actually want to be there...and they probably don't exactly know what they're fighting for at this point.The idea being anyone who supports Ukraine is treating it like a video game
It wasn't referencing everyone. Personally, I think Putin is a c**t and i'd like Russia out of Ukraine but I don't see how either side is going to win. Most of the Russians going to fight are probably just young and scared and don't actually want to be there...and they probably don't exactly know what they're fighting for at this point.
Yeah, I don't disagree with that but I imagine the Americans have already been speaking with the Russians to move towards negotiations. The notion that it'll only be when 'Ukraine is ready' is just naive - it'll be when the USA thinks Ukraine has the upper-hand to go into them to get the best terms possible.Totally. And it is shit that they’ve got a leader who values them so little. But the fact is if they aren’t stopped innocent ukranians will die and Ukraine as a country will cease to exist, never mind the geopolitical consequences of that.
Everyone who knows Putin says you can’t show weakness. The fact is the war has been managed to a point where there’s internal pressure and another big breakthrough could put some serious weight behind peace negotiations. But no such negotiations are going to happen without Ukraine having a strong hand. The fact is they’ve proved extraordinary value for money so far.
Yeah, I don't disagree with that but I imagine the Americans have already been speaking with the Russians to move towards negotiations. The notion that it'll only be when 'Ukraine is ready' is just naive - it'll be when the USA thinks Ukraine has the upper-hand to go into them to get the best terms possible.
Fair point. I actually think that could end up being the case within the next year or so.Not when Ukraine is ready. When Russia is ready. And that means there’s more to lose keeping going than pulling out.
Don’t cry sy, I’m literally in the border with Ukraine, affects me more than you.
Back in Hungary for a few weeks, visiting Mrs family and Balaton, then Cov at the end of July then back, perks of WFH I can do it anywhere, need to go office like once a month.I didn’t know Toronto bothered Ukraine
As Biden said as well it’s simply so they can catch up with the 155mm shells as the world is running out of them, no one was prepared for a war of this scale, give it 2/3 months and it will be 200k 155mm shells a week going to Ukraine not 10kFew things I think are worth considering:
Russians have used cluster munitions with a 30% failure rate, meaning 30% of bomblets stay potentially live. The US provided failure rate is 2.35%. The yanks declined to ban cluster bombs, but they didn’t just crack on, a lot of work has been done to make them safer.
Ukraine has promised all usage is logged and reported and areas where they’ve been used will be prioritised for cleanup.
They’re using them on home soil and therefore much more likely to be careful and make sure they can clean up afterwards.
They aren’t using them in urban areas, the plan seems to be counter battery and anti trench warfare. We could of course provide them with air superiority and therefore be able to not fight with one hand tied behind their back inch by inch on the ground. But these are the choices you make.
As I’ve said before, the only place the war is going to end is around the negotiating table
Sit back and let it go on for years? If the west hadn't intervened Ukraine would have lost last year.That's how pretty much every war ends though.
We can either continue to arm and support Ukraine to get to that point as quickly as possible. Or just sit back and let it go on for years.
Seems a pretty obvious choice to me.
Sit back and let it go on for years? If the west hadn't intervened Ukraine would have lost last year.
Where have I said that? And no, of course it wouldn't have been.Would that have been your preference?
Sorry, I phrased it badly. I meant the west can sit back and leave it as it is now or they can step it up to get it finished quicker.
Where have I said that? And no, of course it wouldn't have been.
I don't believe either side can actually win though and it'll be an ongoing stalemate for years to come and the best solution would be to move toward negotiations as soon as possible.
Here he is, action manWell Russia shouldn’t have invaded then should they? Stop being a putin cock sucker, and get behind Ukraine, I mean after all they have just turned the west biggest enemy into a military with less power than the uk alone, for all I care send Ukraine anything they want, fair game.
Here he is, action man
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These are the used wet wipes still going "give peace a chance" after seeing the non-stop war-crimes the Russians have commited for the last 18 months.
Give them whatever they need to clean up the country, then get them into NATO so it can't happen again.
From a USA and UK perspective the hypocrisy is off the scale.
These are the used wet wipes still going "give peace a chance" after seeing the non-stop war-crimes the Russians have commited for the last 18 months.
Give them whatever they need to clean up the country, then get them into NATO so it can't happen again.
From a USA and UK perspective the hypocrisy is off the scale.
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