USSR invades Ukraine. (11 Viewers)

duffer · Apr 28, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
I thought the same when I first saw the guardian article but the comment wasn’t from the polish government and then I saw that the Polish and Uk governments had previously announced their pact including military training

Polish, UK leaders pledge joint aid for Ukraine

Poland and the UK plan to establish a joint commission to support Ukraine by coordinating arms supplies, military training, and modernising its armed forces, the Polish president and the British prime minister announced on Thursday after talks in London.

www.thefirstnews.com

I agree it’s strange that everyone’s announcing what they’re doing and how they’re supporting, however, I can only assume it’s an intentional show of extensive co-ordinated international support. US have even come out to say they intend to weaken Russia to the extent they can’t do this again in short order.

Since the civilian rapes and killing came to light it appears that all bets are off. Worrying but probably the right move by the West…still don’t know how this ends though

I see where you're coming from mate, but the article you've linked to about a joint agreement to provide aid is a lot more vague than Boris's unilateral statement made later in India.

Ukrainian soldiers training in UK to use British armoured vehicles

PM’s spokesperson denies move is escalatory as UK also trains Ukrainian troops in Poland to use anti-aircraft defences

www.theguardian.com

I don't think the Polish general who complained about the nature of it was political point scoring, I think it's a legitimate concern.

Boris Johnson ‘tempting evil’ by revealing Ukrainian soldiers trained in Poland

Former head of Polish army criticises UK prime minister for risking safety of soldiers

www.theguardian.com

I absolutely agree that Europe needs to show a strong, united front to Russia, and we need to everything we can to support Ukraine.

However, what I worry is beginning to happen is an unnecessary and dangerous escalation in rhetoric that is more about personal political gain. I'd not sure I'd agree with everything in the article below, but it makes some good points...

Liz Truss risks recklessly inflaming Ukraine’s war to serve her own ambition | Simon Jenkins

The foreign secretary’s belligerent comments on Russia reduce Ukraine to a pawn in the Conservatives’ power struggle, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins

www.theguardian.com

CCFCSteve · Apr 29, 2022

duffer said:
I see where you're coming from mate, but the article you've linked to about a joint agreement to provide aid is a lot more vague than Boris's unilateral statement made later in India.

Ukrainian soldiers training in UK to use British armoured vehicles

PM’s spokesperson denies move is escalatory as UK also trains Ukrainian troops in Poland to use anti-aircraft defences

www.theguardian.com

I don't think the Polish general who complained about the nature of it was political point scoring, I think it's a legitimate concern.

Boris Johnson ‘tempting evil’ by revealing Ukrainian soldiers trained in Poland

Former head of Polish army criticises UK prime minister for risking safety of soldiers

www.theguardian.com

I absolutely agree that Europe needs to show a strong, united front to Russia, and we need to everything we can to support Ukraine.

However, what I worry is beginning to happen is an unnecessary and dangerous escalation in rhetoric that is more about personal political gain. I'd not sure I'd agree with everything in the article below, but it makes some good points...

Liz Truss risks recklessly inflaming Ukraine’s war to serve her own ambition | Simon Jenkins

The foreign secretary’s belligerent comments on Russia reduce Ukraine to a pawn in the Conservatives’ power struggle, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins

www.theguardian.com

Yeah, I don’t doubt some of the words used are to make individuals sound strong /tough and I also agree that people should choose their words very carefully…not ideal when some like Johnson is in charge !

However, I’ve also not heard any political leader recently mention encouraging Putin to actively return to peace talks which makes me feel that the West inc ourselves, have decided to go down a different path ie the belief that Putin only responds to strength.

The suggestion by Jenkins that we want the war to continue is nonsense though. The public won’t accept the likely higher costs via inflation even if a proportion is caused by doing the right thing in Ukraine. Cost of living is the issue most likely to bring the government down

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 29, 2022

The military training isn't anything new mind you, we were doing that with Ukraine long before Russia invaded.

tisza · Apr 29, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
The military training isn't anything new mind you, we were doing that with Ukraine long before Russia invaded.

the "bigger" military powers all provide military advisors/training across the globe.

Kieranp96 · Apr 29, 2022

Seen something on twatter about Russia about to declare war on any one who has supplied arms to Ukraine , couldn’t help but laugh ok russia are one of the super powers but it is nothing vs nato let alone the likes of pretty much every country in the world - a few exceptions.

CCFCSteve · Apr 29, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
The military training isn't anything new mind you, we were doing that with Ukraine long before Russia invaded.

Yeah, it’s been going on for years. I think the former polish ministers issue was Johnson saying we were training Ukrainians in Poland. Bit of a non story really. If polish government had an issue with Johnson that’s a different matter

CCFCSteve · Apr 29, 2022

Kieranp96 said:
Seen something on twatter about Russia about to declare war on any one who has supplied arms to Ukraine , couldn’t help but laugh ok russia are one of the super powers but it is nothing vs nato let alone the likes of pretty much every country in the world - a few exceptions.

Still flailing around like a spoilt child. Their disgust that Ukraine had the audacity to (validly) target military supply bases inside Russia was almost comical…how dare they !!!

Flying Fokker · Apr 29, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
Still flailing around like a spoilt child. Their disgust that Ukraine had the audacity to (validly) target military supply bases inside Russia was almost comical…how dare they !!!

Russia will claim that the west is doing it. Technically right of course!

Flying Fokker · Apr 29, 2022

This vid has its challenges If you choose to open it.

Kieranp96 · Apr 29, 2022

Flying Fokker said:
This vid has its challenges If you choose to open it.

that second shot though ahha

Otis · Apr 29, 2022

The very excellent Dr Mike Martin.

skybluetony176 · Apr 29, 2022

Otis said:
The very excellent Dr Mike Martin.

I recon all the talk of the war lasting two years is a warning to Putin more than anything else.

duffer · Apr 30, 2022

Otis said:
The very excellent Dr Mike Martin.

It's a good read, and I quite like the idea of the Russian army being comprehensively beaten.

For all of that though, and odious as it sounds, I think we need to leave Putin some kind of 'off-ramp'.

I think this is more likely to end up in some kind of ugly compromise that no one really likes, and that simmers away for a number of years until Putin dies or is strategically pushed out by those closest to him.

I don't see a coup happening any time soon, and directly pushing for regime change really is a dangerous escalation.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 30, 2022

duffer said:
It's a good read, and I quite like the idea of the Russian army being comprehensively beaten.

For all of that though, and odious as it sounds, I think we need to leave Putin some kind of 'off-ramp'.

I think this is more likely to end up in some kind of ugly compromise that no one really likes, and that simmers away for a number of years until Putin dies or is strategically pushed out by those closest to him.

I don't see a coup happening any time soon, and directly pushing for regime change really is a dangerous escalation.

I do find it bemusing for talk of wanting to avoid ‘dangerous escalation’ to come about when he has been invading a country for months, committing war crimes and refusing to recognise a country’s right to exist.

He gets emboldened by lack of a response.

CCFCSteve · Apr 30, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I do find it bemusing for talk of wanting to avoid ‘dangerous escalation’ to come about when he has been invading a country for months, committing war crimes and refusing to recognise a country’s right to exist.

He gets emboldened by lack of a response.

I think that’s why the rhetoric has been intentionally ramped up recently. It’s uncomfortable to hear and potentially a risk but Putin was offered talks, treated with respect etc and ended up overseeing an army that’s raped and killing civilians and indiscriminately bombed the shit out of towns and cities, so not sure there’s an alternative

I agree with duffer though, however unpalatable, there still needs to be an exit for Putin, probably including leaving Crimea as a Russian territory

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 30, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
I think that’s why the rhetoric has been intentionally ramped up recently. It’s uncomfortable to hear and potentially a risk but Putin was offered talks, treated with respect etc and ended up overseeing an army that’s raped and killing civilians and indiscriminately bombed the shit out of towns and cities, so not sure there’s an alternative

I agree with duffer though, however unpalatable, there still needs to be an exit for Putin, probably including leaving Crimea as a Russian territory

There's a not small amount of evidence to suggest that in a genuinely free referendum the Crimeans would want to be governed by Russia. If so, that's fine. But the exit terms should see Russia's full economic freedoms restored on the basis that they pay full reparations and renounce any claims to the other territory.

In an ideal situation Putin would be strung up as a war criminal, but good luck getting him extradited.

CCFCSteve · Apr 30, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
There's a not small amount of evidence to suggest that in a genuinely free referendum the Crimeans would want to be governed by Russia. If so, that's fine. But the exit terms should see Russia's full economic freedoms restored on the basis that they pay full reparations and renounce any claims to the other territory.

In an ideal situation Putin would be strung up as a war criminal, but good luck getting him extradited.

Yeah, also read that about Crimea which is why it’s not too much of a gimmee. Could even offer something like UN delivered referendum on some of the east, together with remaining independent from NATO for a period. Can’t see Ukraine offering any more and nor should they

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 30, 2022

duffer said:
It's a good read, and I quite like the idea of the Russian army being comprehensively beaten.

For all of that though, and odious as it sounds, I think we need to leave Putin some kind of 'off-ramp'.

I think this is more likely to end up in some kind of ugly compromise that no one really likes, and that simmers away for a number of years until Putin dies or is strategically pushed out by those closest to him.

I don't see a coup happening any time soon, and directly pushing for regime change really is a dangerous escalation.

Trouble is that compromise would be kicking the can down the road. Putin would regroup and go again at some point in the future. He believes these countries should be under Russian control and no amount of international condemnation, sanctions, treaties will convince him otherwise.

But even if he were to die we have no idea what the next perrson might be like.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Apr 30, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
There's a not small amount of evidence to suggest that in a genuinely free referendum the Crimeans would want to be governed by Russia. If so, that's fine. But the exit terms should see Russia's full economic freedoms restored on the basis that they pay full reparations and renounce any claims to the other territory.

In an ideal situation Putin would be strung up as a war criminal, but good luck getting him extradited.

With Putin the MO is to infiltrate with your own operatives so the native population are forced out. Then sat the region wants Russian conttrol. When that happens send those agents in even further and repeat.

Philosoraptor · May 2, 2022

Seeing this is partially a war thread, one of my favourite graphics.

Worth 15 minutes of your time.

Flying Fokker · May 2, 2022

Something to chew over…

Russian state media threatens UK with underwater nuke over Ukraine

Dmitry Kiselyov, known as 'Putin's mouthpiece', used his Sunday night show to threaten the UK with a nuclear tsunami which he said would 'plunge Britain to the depths of the ocean.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

skybluetony176 · May 2, 2022

Lavrov has upset Israel by trying to claim Hitler was of Jewish blood to justify labelling Ukraine a Nazi state despite having a Jewish leader.

David O'Day · May 2, 2022

Flying Fokker said:
Something to chew over…

Russian state media threatens UK with underwater nuke over Ukraine

Dmitry Kiselyov, known as 'Putin's mouthpiece', used his Sunday night show to threaten the UK with a nuclear tsunami which he said would 'plunge Britain to the depths of the ocean.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

Something to laugh at, Russia are not going to use Nuclear weapons against NATO.

Also if they ever did they probably wouldn't work given the state of their military equipment.

David O'Day · May 2, 2022

skybluetony176 said:
Lavrov has upset Israel by trying to claim Hitler was of Jewish blood to justify labelling Ukraine a Nazi state despite having a Jewish leader.

He's just a Vodka soaked Liz Truss

skybluetony176 · May 2, 2022

David O'Day said:
He's just a Vodka soaked Liz Truss

You sure that’s not the other way around?

David O'Day · May 2, 2022

Where does Russia go after this? What is their place it the world?

Their so called "strong man" reputation is in tatters, they have destroyed their own economy, they are having to replace western tech and goods with "Wellesbourne Market" quality stuff, they will be a cultural wasteland for years to come if not decades, they are losing loads of young people and so much more.

I am mean they could even lose The Crimea in the end.

The west is in this to the end it seems now as exampled by Biden asking and probably receiving 33 billion to give in Military aid to Ukraine.

To think people though Ukraine should of rolled over

Sick Boy · May 2, 2022

David O'Day said:
Where does Russia go after this? What is their place it the world?

Their so called "strong man" reputation is in tatters, they have destroyed their own economy, they are having to replace western tech and goods with "Wellesbourne Market" quality stuff, they will be a cultural wasteland for years to come if not decades, they are losing loads of young people and so much more.

I am mean they could even lose The Crimea in the end.

The west is in this to the end it seems now as exampled by Biden asking and probably receiving 33 billion to give in Military aid to Ukraine.

To think people though Ukraine should of rolled over

Yeah he has well and truly fucked Russia for generations to come…and for what?

Sky Blue Pete · May 3, 2022

Sick Boy said:
Yeah he has well and truly fucked Russia for generations to come…and for what?

Legacy hunting

shmmeee · May 3, 2022

Sky Blue Pete said:
Legacy hunting

I mean “the man who set Russia back decades” is a kind of legacy.

Sky Blue Pete · May 3, 2022

shmmeee said:
I mean “the man who set Russia back decades” is a kind of legacy.

Very true

Alan Dugdales Moustache · May 3, 2022

David O'Day said:
Where does Russia go after this? What is their place it the world?

Their so called "strong man" reputation is in tatters, they have destroyed their own economy, they are having to replace western tech and goods with "Wellesbourne Market" quality stuff, they will be a cultural wasteland for years to come if not decades, they are losing loads of young people and so much more.

I am mean they could even lose The Crimea in the end.

The west is in this to the end it seems now as exampled by Biden asking and probably receiving 33 billion to give in Military aid to Ukraine.

To think people though Ukraine should of rolled over

If someone gave you a box of matches you'd be able to single handedly burn down Moscow by launching them from an elastic band.

PVA · May 9, 2022

Russia going ahead with their Victory Day parade in Moscow today.

Bit awkward.

Mcbean · May 9, 2022

Not awkward he seems to be able to say anything and the majority ( in Russia) believe him which is a sad reflection of post communist Russia - saw an interview last night with tv presenter who said bravely that Putin had destroyed Russian childrens future which I guess is true as they will become cast off from Europe for sure - it is depressing in that in the East of Ukraine there will never ever be peace , they will always have to be looking over their shoulders

Terry Gibson's perm · May 10, 2022

Did anybody see the Antanov 124 cargo plane that flew over the centre of the uk yesterday I was walking the dog and heard a big plane and looked on flight radar to see what it was.

Terry Gibson's perm · May 10, 2022

USSR invades Ukraine. (11 Viewers)

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