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Update from Big Dave (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter jordan210
  • Start date Jul 9, 2020
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Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #176
shmmeee said:
Well quite. It’s not unreasonable to think that in two years the issues around the Ricoh won’t be sorted. Cleary further legal action is planned if it’s thrown out as the club want to retain that right, a decision could take longer than that anyway, and even if it’s quicker and positive for Sisu the council can and almost certainly will appeal.

So what happens at that point if Wasps are still solvent and refusing to let us do a deal while the action is ongoing? Do we fold? Surely we should have broken ground on a stadium by now if we were going to have it ready for that point? It’s a massive massive risk and as I say I’m still yet to be convinced of the actual benefit to CCFC of this route. It seems to have become mostly about spiting Wasps and CCC for most, the actual impacts on the club forgotten.
Click to expand...

As previously reported, Wasps insisted SISU sign a legal undertaking before they would participate in discussions with CCFC. SISU signed this undertaking in April to irrevocably cease all proceedings against Wasps relating to the sale and lease of the Ricoh Arena. Wasps then entered into commercial discussions with CCFC to allow the Club to continue to play for a limited time; however, not the five years we wanted.
Click to expand...
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #177
Yep if we’re at St. Andrews this season we need concrete movement on a new stadium beyond a desire
 
Reactions: mark82
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #178

I guess he could say that technically that didn’t rule out future legals.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #179
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I guess he could say that technically that didn’t rule out future legals.
Click to expand...

Isn't that what the irrevocably bit is? Unless I am confusing what it means.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #180
Nick said:
Isn't that what the irrevocably bit is? Unless I am confusing what it means.
Click to expand...

I thought so as well but I suppose without ‘current and future’ then there could be a semantic argument to be had.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #181
Sky Blue Pete said:
Yep if we’re at St. Andrews this season we need concrete movement on a new stadium beyond a desire
Click to expand...
We do anyway if their stated aim is to own their own stadium (as it has been since, well, a time when social distancing among our crowds at Northampton wasn't a challenge!).
 
Reactions: mark82 and Sky Blue Pete
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #182
Deleted member 5849 said:
We do anyway if their stated aim is to own their own stadium (as it has been since, well, a time when social distancing among our crowds at Northampton wasn't a challenge!).
Click to expand...

It got a bit busy on ‘Jimmy’s Hill’
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #183
Deleted member 5849 said:
I suppose what we can all agree on is that nobody has to rent you a house.

It'd be lovely, just lovely, if our oft promised stadium progressed beyond half-arsed soundbytes...
Click to expand...

Well I’ve just responded to someone comparing a rental agreement if two parties coming together with a divorce
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #184
I think we’d all absolutely love it if a stadium started to be built. I don’t think it’s going to happen because something would have moved by now but that would genuinely give us light at the end of the tunnel.
 
Reactions: mark82

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #185
Grendel said:
Well I’ve just responded to someone comparing a rental agreement if two parties coming together with a divorce
Click to expand...

If they were both coming together I doubt they would be getting divorced.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #186
Nick said:
If they were both coming together I doubt they would be getting divorced.
Click to expand...

Indeed
 

mark82

Super Moderator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #187
shmmeee said:
No idea, what’s that got to do with what we’re talking about?
Click to expand...

It has everything to do with what we're talking about.
 
Reactions: Brighton Sky Blue

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #188
Deleted member 5849 said:
I suppose what we can all agree on is that nobody has to rent you a house.

It'd be lovely, just lovely, if our oft promised stadium progressed beyond half-arsed soundbytes...
Click to expand...

Tim Fisher went to look for badgers though to be far, that's the logical step up from soundbytes only.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

mark82

Super Moderator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #189
Nick said:
As previously reported, Wasps insisted SISU sign a legal undertaking before they would participate in discussions with CCFC. SISU signed this undertaking in April to irrevocably cease all proceedings against Wasps relating to the sale and lease of the Ricoh Arena. Wasps then entered into commercial discussions with CCFC to allow the Club to continue to play for a limited time; however, not the five years we wanted.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The important bit there is "relating to the sale and lease of the Ricoh". I don't think there has ever been any issue from the CCFC side in agreeing not to take direct action against Wasps for that.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #190
mark82 said:
The important bit there is "relating to the sale and lease of the Ricoh". I don't think there has ever been any issue from the CCFC side in agreeing not to take direct action against Wasps for that.
Click to expand...
Yeah exactly and wasps were happy with that.

Then it seemed to increased to want to cover all legal action and cover costs and indemnity I think?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #191
Nick said:
Yeah exactly and wasps were happy with that.

Then it seemed to increased to want to cover all legal action and cover costs and indemnity I think?
Click to expand...

Yes against all parties - wonder who engineered that
 
Reactions: shepardo01

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #192
Nick said:
stuff
Click to expand...

We’ve been over the silliness of this argument. Wasps clearly mean any action relating to reversing the Ricoh sale regardless of whether they specifically are named.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #193
mark82 said:
The important bit there is "relating to the sale and lease of the Ricoh". I don't think there has ever been any issue from the CCFC side in agreeing not to take direct action against Wasps for that.
Click to expand...

No, the important bit is “against Wasps”, it’s playing semantic games and not a serious attempt at engagement.

It’s playground stuff.
 

GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #194
robbiekeane said:
Seems to put at least an articulate well structured argument across with reasoning. I don’t agree with a lot of it but can at least debate without getting aggy
Click to expand...
I'd agree with this, it's much more adult than the name and mud slinging, it's just the pedantic nature and then accusations of nuance and semantics that then get thrown the other way too. It's just really, really fucking boring and gets used on every thread where stadium/couincil/Wasps are mentioned. I think we all get it, his opinion differs from 80%+ of us, it doesn't require a jump back on every post he disagrees with. It's as tedious as Max/Grendel.
 

GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #195
shmmeee said:
No, the important bit is “against Wasps”, it’s playing semantic games and not a serious attempt at engagement.

It’s playground stuff.
Click to expand...
Oh I timed that well, use of semantics :emoji_heavy_check_mark:
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #196
shmmeee said:
No, the important bit is “against Wasps”, it’s playing semantic games and not a serious attempt at engagement.

It’s playground stuff.
Click to expand...

It was enough for Wasps to start negotiations though until they moved the goalposts?

They were engaging with Wasps, hence they guaranteed no further legal action against Wasps to do with it.

It really isn't semantics, unless you think "No future legal action against anybody about anything" is going to end well?
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #197
But and it’s important they are and were happy to agree a deal last season and this
shmmeee said:
We’ve been over the silliness of this argument. Wasps clearly mean any action relating to reversing the Ricoh sale regardless of whether they specifically are named.
Click to expand...
 

mark82

Super Moderator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #198
shmmeee said:
No, the important bit is “against Wasps”, it’s playing semantic games and not a serious attempt at engagement.

It’s playground stuff.
Click to expand...

Not quite sure what you're implying but I don't think Wasps have ever asked us to sign away any right to take legal action against any other party other than themselves.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #199
mark82 said:
Not quite sure what you're implying but I don't think Wasps have ever asked us to sign away any right to take legal action against any other party other than themselves.
Click to expand...

Just indemnify against them
 

mark82

Super Moderator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #200
Nick said:
Just indemnify against them
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that is trying to cover themselves and not the council.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #201
Sky Blue Pete said:
But and it’s important they are and were happy to agree a deal last season and this
Click to expand...

I mean clearly not as we didn’t get a deal last season (or have we not moved seasons yet, do you mean the last season at the Ricoh? If so then obviously things changed.).

Look I’m only taking both sides at their word.

Sisu:

“This agreement introduced conditions that would unreasonably restrict the Club and SISU’s basic legal rights and would commit the Club and SISU to underwrite Wasps’ costs and any future damages. ”

That right there is the request to stop all future legal action aimed at reversing the sale. How do we know? Because very rarely for this Wasps and Sisu agreed:

(From Wasps)

“Despite significant progress being made in the discussions, we have unfortunately been unable to reach an agreement with the owners which, putting aside the complaint to the European Commission, would deliver the fundamental principle that there would be no further proceedings about the ownership of the Ricoh Arena.”

Note the words fundamental principle. It’s the basic principle that they care about not who is named specifically.

“Ah!” You say “But Wasps entered negotiations so must have been fine! Sisu agreed to stop the legals!”

Well, no that’s not what is said. Sisu very carefully say

“ SISU signed this undertaking in April to irrevocably cease all proceedings against Wasps relating to the sale and lease of the Ricoh Arena.”

Wasps say:

“As everyone is aware, we made it a pre-requisite of talks that the owners would stop pursuing proceedings around the ownership of the Ricoh Arena. We understood the owners shared that desire based on the letter it sent to us.”

So what Sisu seemingly did is send a letter agreeing not to sue Wasps, fully intending to continue legal action designed to reverse the sale. Wasps clearly mistook this for meaning what they wanted and started talks. When it came to the details of the agreement Sisu refused to sign the wider ranging request Wasps wanted.

I honestly don’t see how any other reading is possible.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #202
mark82 said:
Not quite sure what you're implying but I don't think Wasps have ever asked us to sign away any right to take legal action against any other party other than themselves.
Click to expand...

See above post. They very clearly did.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #203
Hence the Question who put them up To it? Be nice for it to go away for who else?
mark82 said:
Yeah, but that is trying to cover themselves and not the council.
Click to expand...
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #204
Sky Blue Pete said:
Hence the Question who put them up To it? Be nice for it to go away for who else?
Click to expand...

Oh dear.
 

mark82

Super Moderator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #205
Sky Blue Pete said:
Hence the Question who put them up To it? Be nice for it to go away for who else?
Click to expand...

Wasps would have to pay up if the EC found against the council. Essentially it would be obliged to pay back the state aid it received. I can understand their concern as much as I don't necessarily agree with their stance.
 
Reactions: shmmeee

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #206
shmmeee said:
Oh dear.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with that statement?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #207
Nick said:
What's wrong with that statement?
Click to expand...

...


mark82 said:
Wasps would have to pay up if the EC found against the council. Essentially it would be obliged to pay back the state aid it received. I can understand their concern as much as I don't necessarily agree with their stance.
Click to expand...

On a wider point it’s more conspiratorial nonsense that really doesn’t help the debate here and I’d hoped Pete was above.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #208
shmmeee said:
...
Click to expand...

They would only have to pay up if the council were found to be in the wrong, wouldn't they?

You always seem to play the "conspiracy" stuff as well, even when things have actually happened it's a conspiracy when mentioned. It doesn't work when you say it about everything.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #209
shmmeee said:
I mean clearly not as we didn’t get a deal last season (or have we not moved seasons yet, do you mean the last season at the Ricoh? If so then obviously things changed.).

Look I’m only taking both sides at their word.

Sisu:

“This agreement introduced conditions that would unreasonably restrict the Club and SISU’s basic legal rights and would commit the Club and SISU to underwrite Wasps’ costs and any future damages. ”

That right there is the request to stop all future legal action aimed at reversing the sale. How do we know? Because very rarely for this Wasps and Sisu agreed:

(From Wasps)

“Despite significant progress being made in the discussions, we have unfortunately been unable to reach an agreement with the owners which, putting aside the complaint to the European Commission, would deliver the fundamental principle that there would be no further proceedings about the ownership of the Ricoh Arena.”

Note the words fundamental principle. It’s the basic principle that they care about not who is named specifically.

“Ah!” You say “But Wasps entered negotiations so must have been fine! Sisu agreed to stop the legals!”

Well, no that’s not what is said. Sisu very carefully say

“ SISU signed this undertaking in April to irrevocably cease all proceedings against Wasps relating to the sale and lease of the Ricoh Arena.”

Wasps say:

“As everyone is aware, we made it a pre-requisite of talks that the owners would stop pursuing proceedings around the ownership of the Ricoh Arena. We understood the owners shared that desire based on the letter it sent to us.”

So what Sisu seemingly did is send a letter agreeing not to sue Wasps, fully intending to continue legal action designed to reverse the sale. Wasps clearly mistook this for meaning what they wanted and started talks. When it came to the details of the agreement Sisu refused to sign the wider ranging request Wasps wanted.

I honestly don’t see how any other reading is possible.
Click to expand...

Without the exact wording of the agreement they actually signed then we’re in a semantic roundabout. What also remains is that there is no further legal action possible to challenge the sale unless anybody knows otherwise
 

mark82

Super Moderator
  • Jul 10, 2020
  • #210
shmmeee said:
See above post. They very clearly did.
Click to expand...

Ok, fair enough, if they're asking them to also stop any action against the council then it looks doubly bad.

It's also important not to underestimate the bit about restricting the club and Sisu's basic legal rights. Could this imply that Wasps are wanting it to cover more than just action relating to the sale & lease?
 
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